The basics of dining in France

[John Whiting]

I won't continue to argue my metaphor; strictly speaking it's off-topic anyway. Your point about the unspeakable practice of double tipping has a terrible relevance in Britain, where it's increasingly common to add a service charge to the bill and then present an open credit card slip with a marked space in which to add a further gratuity. If they could figure out a system for tripple-tipping, they'd do it.

[John Whiting]

Steve, the second half of your posting saves me the trouble of refuting the first. Genuine equality is totally independent of the job one does, and inequality manifests itself in insolence as well as in subservience.

There's an illuminating story from postwar London about an aristocrat who was badly treated by a lazy and arrogant shopgirl. Her ladyship looked down her nose and remarked, "I dare say you think that you're just as good as I am." "I certainly do!" the girl replied with considerable heat. "In that case," concluded the lady, "I'll thank you to be civil to your equals."

[Steve Plotnicki]

"Genuine equality"

John-Agreed if I could figure out what genuine equality means? I mean you are good in math and I am poor. I have a good palate for wines and you don't. Women flock to you for your animalistic charisma and nobody talks to me. I can think of thousands of these.

We just happen to have agreed (agreed is the operative word here) to live within an economic system that is based on exploiting those types of inequalities. The difference between a 2 star and 3 star review in Michelin is exploited for millions of euros additional business. Is it proportionate?

Everybody has an equal choice as to how they are going to participate. Granted, those choices are limited by how wealth and knowledge has been accumulated throughout history. But the Bill Gates's of the world have proven that not an insurmountable object and have accumulated greater sums of wealth in the past two decades than the industrialists of the late 1800's accumulated including the natural growth of their wealth over the last century.

Maybe one day both wealth and knowledge will be distributed equally and indeed the world will be a better place to live in. But for all knowledge to be distributed equally that means I get to pilot the Concorde  

[John Whiting]

Steve, this is spiralling wildly off-topic and it's probably my fault. Forgive me if I say, as a fellow-Yank even if an expat, that your take on this is very American in that it concentrates on the epic dimensions of status, fame and prosperity. All I'm talking about is equality as a basis for human interaction -- how you treat the people you serve and people who serve you. My ideal can be summed up in the way a Swiss ticket-collector on a train approaches you -- he is not wearing a uniform which shouts subservience and until he opens his mouth he is indistinguishable from a doctor or a lawyer.

[Bux]

The sauce on the omelette is the same as the lobster bisque, so if you have one, you do not need the other.

Years ago, and it must have been in the late 60s, I had dinner at Relais Bisson on the quai des Grandes Augustins. Michelin gave it three forks & spoons and a s single star. I guess that puts it squarely in what might be the upper middle or even the bottom of the upper range or restaurants and for me, at the time, a bit of a treat in terms of food and a cut more formal than the bistros that fed us most of our meals in Paris. I ordered two dishes that I though would get me the most of the kind of food that distinguished Relais Bisson. Seafood crepes for a first course and sole in a luxurious cream sauce for my second. The waiter politely explained that both dishes came with virtually the same sauce. My French wasn't good enough to know if he thought I was an idiot or just unfamiliar with the food, but I had already determined that the French knew how to cook better than Americans and I had to open myself to the likelihood that they could teach me how to eat in many senses of the word.

we were advised to try a cold glass of sauterne with our foies gras instead of our ordered champagne.  New to the game, we agreed, and have not ordered anything but such with our foies gras since.

Sweet wine with Foie gras was something I had read about with some disbelief until I tried it. I think it's become a much more widely appreciated combination among Americans today, but when we first started to order a glass of Monbazillac, Jurancon moelleux or Coteaux du Lyon we'd get very knowing looks from waiters.

the best advice I'd have to getting the best from French restaurant dining is to let them do their best, ask questions, no matter how dumb they seem, and unless you really know better, take their advice.  When they see you do this, they will take responsibility for you and pride in your pleasure.

If I didn't say this, I meant to.

It's not really surprising that we have such different opinions on tipping in France. Here at home, I know people who think 15% on the bill without drinks and before tax is more than enough for good service and those who think 20% of the total is expected for routine service. I don't anyone who stiffs waiters, but clearly there are enough of them around as well.

alcoholic drinks seem a bit out of place at one of those beautifully set tables.

I couldn't agree more. Even here in the US, cocktails at the dining table seem inappropriate. I grew up at a time when a cocktail was a mark of sophistication, but traveled to France became an adult just as Americans were learning about wine. Cocktails seem to be making a comeback and I suspect it fares poorly for food in restaurants.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux-My similar story is on our second trip to France in 1984, my wife and I decided to take the slow train to Chartres on a Sunday afternoon. It was one of those lazy September days and we got there in the afternoon and toured the cathedral. Afterwards we spent a good hour just sitting on a bench across the street and just staring at it being hypnotized by the afternoon light bouncing off it. At about 5:30 we decided we were hungry and I had a place in mind to eat at called Henry V or something like that. The chef was a famous old chef, Charles something, must have been in his 70's at the time and I believe he had a Michelin star. His wife was the hostess. One of those perfect French women. Not a hair out of place and impeccably dressed.

So being dumb Americans and being used to places that served food all day, we show up at 5:30 and I ask her if she has a "table pour due s'il vous plait." At first she is a bit taken aback because of the hour, but she quickly regained her composure, cocked her head back and grabbed two menus and motioned for us to follow her. We were the only two people there. She sat us, presented the menu and left us to stew. She came back a few minutes later and started speaking to us in French. "Parlez-vous Anglais" I asked her? "Non Monsieur." And then she began stepping us through an entire meal in French, speaking very slowly and purposely and ennunciating things so we could understand what she was trying to tell us.

"VOUS PREFFEREZ LE POULET OU L'AGNEAU?

The entire meal was like that and even though at the time my French menuspeak was limited, she got us to understand everything she was saying and she insisted that we experience the meal in a certain way. Order the food in a specific order etc. If she said something we didn't understand, she would repeat it even more slowly until we grasped the concept. And in one instance I remember that she went to the kitchen and brought back the ingredient to the table so we would understand.

Well the food was only fair. A cuisine of days past and prepared by someone who had  probably cooked at least one too many gigots. But the experience was a great one, all because she was so forceful in the way she insisted we experience the meal. That meal taught us more about how to eat in a French restuarant than any other we had eaten at the time. After we left and were on the train back to Paris, we wondered how many times she did that for people who came from every country imagineable.

[Lord Michael Lewis]

Steve, have you ever considered learning French?

[Steve Plotnicki]

LML-I actually took private lessons a number of years ago but lost interest after about a month. Those French have more conjugations than recipes  . But my restaurant French these days is quite excellent and I have left many a Captain with their jaw hanging (as well as Madame Gagniare) while they listen to me translate the menu. I guess one day if I ever buy an apartment there I would try and learn conversational French. Right now I am limited to discussing the weather with taxi drivers. "En New York, neige comme ca."

[Steve Plotnicki]

John Whiting-Sorry I forgot my response to you. Your story about the Swiss train conducter assumes that the reason he has equality is because of moral reasons and isn't based in economics. Why isn't (and I'm just speculating,) his equality derived from Switzerland's economic superiority? Couldn't it be that it as a matter of a GNP that is abundant for the size of the populace, the wealth has been shared in a way to pay a train conducter a fare wage? And now society views him as earning a respectable wage, i.e. differently than he would be viewed in other societies where he is paid an inferior wage. This might be a cart and horse issue but, if we looked at history, I bet you we would find that conditions improve concomitantly with there being a surpluss in wealth.

[John Whiting]

Steve, I'm afraid you don't understand what I'm saying. From the beginning I made it clear that I was talking, not about what is *right*, but about what I *like*. I like to deal with people who regard me as an equal. How they arrive at this point of view can vary diametrically from person to person; one may achieve it within a totalitarian political system, another within a democracy. It has to do with a self-confidence which is divorced from arrogance.

If someone prefers the manipulative relationship which once existed in the temples of haute-cuisine, that's fine by me. If another likes to be slapped on the back by a steak house jockey, more power to him. I'll stick with those modest but conscientious establishments where I'm simply made to feel at home.

[Bux]

But my restaurant French these days is quite excellent

This is something I quite understand. There are many countries in which I can't get a room or even find the WC without resporting to hand signals, but I manage to read menus and order food in a way that surprises people.

My similar story is ...

I suspect many of us have similar stories. Many others do not. If this board is a magnet for those who do, I'm pleased for many reasons. Most of all, it's good company. These days French food is far more accessible to Americans traveling abroad for the first time, than it was in the sixties, but no matter where you've eaten in the states, there are things to be learned by eating in France. They are subtle and no food or travel writer will ever manage to list all the little things you can learn by not assuming you're the boss just because you're paying the bill.

[robert brown]

Ajay, always make eye contact with every staff member and say "merci" for every little thing they do for you. In other words, give everyone (and that includes busboys) their dignity. You cannot lose doing that.

[jaybee]

Bux: I couldn't agree more. Even here in the US, cocktails at the dining table seem inappropriate. I grew up at a time when a cocktail was a mark of sophistication, but traveled to France became an adult just as Americans were learning about wine. Cocktails seem to be making a comeback and I suspect it fares poorly for food in restaurants.

I used to feel the same way.  Recently I have enjoyed a good gin martini straight up with a starter of clams and oysters on the half shell.  There something about the way the cold gin mixes with the taste of the clams that creates a new and very enjoyable flavor.  And if I order a dozen or more clams and the martinis to go with them, whatever follows always tastes great!

[jaybee]

Jaybee-Your story is great. But instead of making believe that you didn't order the omelet, they should have warned you off it when you were ordering. I find it hard to believe that a restaurant of that caliber would try and slip one by you. S. Plotnicki.

Steve, do you mean that you think I've made up the story? Or are you commenting on a flaw in service in a 3 star restaurant, which, in my experience, does happen. For some reason, the waiter did not feel fluent enough in English, or confident in his ability to make us understand what he was saying that he side stepped the issue. Who knows. That wasn't the point of the story, was it?

[Margaret Pilgrim]

Robert Brown said...always make eye contact with every staff member and say "merci" for every little thing they do for you. In other words, give everyone (and that includes busboys) their dignity. You cannot lose doing that.

 

Absolutely, Robert.  I believe that this simple kind of  communication forges a partnership between the diner and dining room staff that exponentially improves the experience of both diner and those who serve the table.