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The basics of dining in  France


ajay

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There is some information scattered about the various threads, but I thought it would be useful to concentrate basic, useful informaiton into one thread.

For example, as I understand it, a service charge is included with the price of all? menus and dishes.  What is the custom of additional tipping?

In NYC, requests for ice (tap) water are generally accepted and filled without problem or adverse reaction on the part of the staff--especially at the top places.  Is it customary to order bottled water in France?  If so, would not ordering bottled water send the wrong signal to the waitstaff and result in a poorer experience?  (Here i seem to recall Bux saying he believed his experience at maisons de Briecourt was diminished because he did not order an appertif).

There's also a discussion about how language barriers can impede the quality of a meal.  Opinions on this front would also be welcome.

Finally Seve KIc has posited the notion that mentioning a chef's cookbook may potentially earn the diner a better experience.  Are there other strategies to enhance a restaurant experience?

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Ajay--I felt mentioning the book--in cabrales' context at Roellinger--could not hurt but wondered if it might help.  The book is expensive, isn't in English and perhaps <75 copies were sold in the US.  An American speaking knowledgeably of the book would indicate seriousness of purpose.  But I think it's important that you're actually familiar with the book--enough to refer to specific dishes for example or to mention the complex spice mixtures when asking the maitre'd or sommelier for wine advice.

But I think the larger point might be called awareness of the chef and the experience in advance--and that could be acquired without access to a book--you could read articles, reports, reviews, google the chef or restaurant and read eGullet in depth.  Don't go into a serious restaurant--with preconceptions or misplaced expectations--based on your own failure to do your homework.

One thing I would advise is not to expect or count any of the little amuse or gifts--if you get them, great; if you don't, don't make a fuss--just notice whether other patrons (perhaps French-speaking) were receiving them, however--and then report back here!  Also, keep in mind that the number and variety of these gifts from the chef vary from menu to menu--even on the same night.

The best meals of my life have been at the hands of French chefs--when I've been in the company of other French chefs--with one exception, and that was my meal at Ducasse-NY.  Though I am a chef, I do not speak French and have never even attempted brutalizing their language when I am over there but I was familiar enough with French culinary terms to get by, I feel drinking wine with every course is essential and I am demure and deferential when someone else is cooking for me.

Bux has weighed in well on this issue and perhaps we'll see him here--but I agree with one of his themes in that you can improve your experience by demonstrating your knowledge, awareness, appreciation--even reverance if you will.

Strategies for enhancing your meal in France?  Well, having a French chef call to make your reservations helps big time.

And I do think dressing well--if you are like me--dressing more stylishly than you normally might--is a big plus.  (Not breaking new ground that.)

I always get bottled water in Europe and if I'm hit up for an apertif, I ask for the wine list if I don't have it already.  No Lillet for me.

Steve Klc

Pastry chef-Restaurant Consultant

Oyamel : Zaytinya : Cafe Atlantico : Jaleo

chef@pastryarts.com

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Tipping: At any restaurant in France, you should feel entirely comfortable paying the amount on the bill and leaving. A lot of Americans find this difficult to grasp, and so they often leave additional money. As a result, the French know that they might get extra money out of Americans. In some of the shoddier joints, they'll even lie (or equivocate) so you think maybe the service charge isn't really included in the bill. But it is. It always is. And you never have to tip more than that. If you want to, fine, it's appreciated but not required or expected. I would only do it in the case of exceptional service, and since all service at Michelin-starred places is supposed to be exceptional by default this is a very difficult threshold to cross. In cheaper cafe-type places it's customary to leave your loose change on the table, if you like.

Water: I ask for tap water ("carafe" is the way they usually refer to it) and nobody is ever surprised. They know Americans do this -- as does the occasional French person -- and they're used to it. Given that you'll never pass for French anyway, I see no reason not to embrace your Americanism. I actually prefer the way most French restaurants do it: They typically bring you an actual carafe of water and put it on the table, and they refill the carafe when it's done. They pour it for you, but if you're a total water hog like me it gives you the chance to fill your own glass if you like. Regarding Bux's drink situation, I don't know what happened there but it's totally atypical. I have never in my life had a drink before dinner at a restaurant in France -- okay, maybe once at Les Crayeres where it's sort of obligatory on account of the pre-dinner salon-ordering procedure -- and nobody has given me any flack about it.

Language: It's always nice to make a token attempt to say a few words in French -- that's just common courtesy when you're a visitor in another country. In the overwhelming majority of cases, they'll switch into English once they realize you're clueless. And if they don't, just be like, "Wow, my French is really rusty, can we switch to English?"

Cookbook: As Steve says, this falls under the general heading of knowledge-and-interest. Anytime you display interest and knowledge in a restaurant and its chef, you're going to be treated with an additional increment of respect. It may not get you anything tangible, but it never hurts.

Dress: In my experience people in fancy restaurants in New York are better dressed than people in fancy restaurants in France, especially those outside Paris. Actually, I take that back: What I really mean is that in New York they're dressed more formally. You will find a whole lot of men without neckties at Michelin three-star places even at dinnertime, whereas at dinnertime at any New York four-star place you'll find almost every man wearing a tie. So if you dress as though you're going out to a fancy restaurant in New York, you will be more than adequately dressed to dine in France. I think the dress differential comes more into play when you're not in restaurants. The French dress much better (more stylishly and more formally) than us when they're just walking around on the streets. That's a good place to improve your sartorial situation if you want better treatment in shops and such.

Which brings me to one final point: The service at the better French restaurants is awesome. It doesn't matter if you're a complete rube. They still treat you really, really well. So I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's when you leave the restaurant environment that you encounter the worst of France -- the Parisian rudeness, etc., for which the nation is justly famous.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I'm not necessarily agreed with the notion that restaurants may want to "get a little out of Americans"... maybe in some touristy hell-trap... but any restaurant of quality deserves a little extra... the French regulations say that you do not have to pay for service, but this doesn't mean that the waitstaff is getting anything out of it...  As for tipping in a Michelin starred restaurant, in my opinion, it's a sacrelage not to! Anyone leaving such establishments, tasting the art of gastronomy, taking part in all these places have to offer, and then leaving without expressing their gratitude would come off as a "plouk"..

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There seems to be some agreement that tippinng in Michelin starred restaurants is called for.  How much is considered appropriate?  Do the French use a percentage system? Some more specific guidance on this front would be appreciated.

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I emphatically do not agree with that, and I assure you it is not necessary to tip in any restaurant in France. And I thought my comments were clear in terms of who would push for tips.

As Patricia Wells puts it in her Food Lover's Guide to Paris:

"You need remember only one fact: You are never required to pay more than the final 'net' total on the bill. Service, which ranges from twelve to fifteen percent, depending on the class of restaurant, must be included in the price of individual dishes, and is part of the final bill. Etiquette does not require you to pay more than the total. If you have particularly enjoyed the meal, if you feel the maitre d'hotel or sommelier has offered exceptional service, if you are in a particularly generous mood, then you might leave anywhere from a few francs to five percent of the total bill as an additional tip, preferably in cash."

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Tap water is not an uncommon request, especially in informal places. 'Une carafe d'eau, SVP' is the usual form. I might feel a bit odd about ordering tap water at a posh place though. Mainly because, well... if you're prepared to pay their prices for your dinner, why would you quibble about a bottle of Perrier or Evian?

Tipping: I echo Fat Guy's comments - since only one person has said he'd usually tip, I don't see how you can say there's 'agreement' that tipping is usual. I have tipped quite generously in the past, but I wouldn't do it now unless I had a very special reason to.

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I'd guess I've ordered tap water at approximately a dozen Michelin three- and two-star restaurants in France, and never once has the request been handled with anything less than aplomb and total lack of surprise. At many of these places, there is a whole service ritual for tap water, including special carafes and ice tongs and even tableside carts. I drink tap water on principle, because I think in France (which has a bad reputation but actually has good tap water in my opinion), just like anywhere else in the world, there is no reason to throw money in the garbage. If you like tap water better, by all means order it and pay for it. But don't ever order it because you feel uncomfortable not ordering it! That is the antithesis of the experience you should be demanding of any top restaurant.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Actually I would normally order bottled water because I prefer fizzy water with a meal (as long as it's not bloody Badoit, bleurghhh). But you're right, a really good restaurant shouldn't show any negative reaction to an order like that.

Adam

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Sure, if you like bubbles then order bubbles. But in terms of the restaurant's reaction, there should be no negative reaction displayed -- and there should be no negative reaction suppressed either. This is something they deal with all the time (why else would it be incorporated into the formal service ritual?) and if they think less of you for it then that's a statement about them, not about you. But I don't think it's the case anyway.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I would be ashamed to leave a 5% tip at ,say, Guy Savoy or Taillevent, and I assure all of you that the true gastronome's regularly, almost systematically leave much more, even Madame Wells...

I live in Paris, and know the score

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I can see this is going to be a long thread.

ajay: ...  a service charge is included with the price of all? menus and dishes.  What is the custom of additional tipping?
That depends who you ask as I've gotten conflicting information and sometimes I've been sorry I asked as once I've been told you shouldn't leave a tip, I'm unable to leave one without offending the person I asked. My French friends, who may not be typical, always leave something when they are a regular, and often when they are not as well as always when it's a fine restaurant. Rounding off to some whole number seems like sensible advice, but I always pay with a credit card and the tip should never be added to the credit card, or so I've been told. Generally speaking, the service in France is 12-15% added by the house. (This service charge does not go to the server. It goes to the house, which is responsible for paying the server a decent wage whether or not the clintele orders caviar or mackeral.) Another two or three percent more rounded off seems to be what I've seen others leave, when they leave a tip, but this is hardly definitive advice. Understand that it's not required, nor done by all diners and maybe not even by most diners. Moreover, I've never been able to reconcile leaving a tip at a restaurant, but not in the dining room of an inn where my bill will be settled in the morning. I once witnessed an American at a fine three star Relais & Chateaux inn try to add a tip to his payment by card. He didn't understand French and try as the cashier did, she couldn't get across the idea that service was already included and that it was not possible for the house to collect money and distribute tips to the staff. (You have to understand that in France that when things are not the custom, they are "impossible.") So I tip the maid, tip the waiter at a restaurant in the city, but stiff the waiter at a country inn, but I've never seen anyone leave money on table in the dining room of the inn. I'm looking to get more help on this subject than I am ready to offer.
Is it customary to order bottled water in France?
It is far more customary to order bottle water in Europe than in the U.S. I would say the trends are reversing themselves. Far more people order bottled water in NY today than did 20 years ago and the reverse is true in France. We usually order bottled water in France and almost never in the U.S. I could say that's because we started eating in France at a time it was the norm for everyone to order bottled water or that it makes me feel as if I'm in France, but the truth is that my wife finds she doesn't drink enough water during the day when we're away from home. In NY she drinks a lot of seltzer and prefers bubbly water. She compensates by drinking water in restaurants (along with sufficient quantities of wine to impress waiters on both sides of the Atlantic) and since they don't have sparkling water on tap, we usually order bottled.
ajay: ... recall Bux saying he believed his experience at maisons de Briecourt was diminished because he did not order an apéritif
Perhaps I could have more accurately noted that my pleasure would have been increased with an apéritif. It was just that several parties arrived at one, and service lagged for a short while. I do feel that at the better restaurants, more people seem to be having an apéritif these days. We don't usually have one for several reasons and it's taking me a bit of time to learn where I should order an apéritif and where it's not important. The first time we ate at Michel Guerard in Eugenie-le-Bains they led us into a lovely room with sofas and comfortable chairs when we arrived. I mentally gave them bad marks for not having my table ready and declined an apéritif. How naive of me to even think they were not ready to receive me properly. Shortly after we declined the apéritif they began bringing hors d'oeuvres and amuses and I wished I had a drink. The next time we arrived with friends who also don't regularly take an apéritif, but forewarned by our last visit, we asked for the wine list and polished off a bottle of what was probably a nice Jurançon sec or the house Tursan (with the other as our first wine at the table later) in the salon before we were called to our table. As a result we enjoyed our second visit much more. The Michel Guerard situation is very different from the Roellinger (Bricourt) one, however.
ajay: ... language barriers ...
Rarely are language barriers significant at three star restaurant, R&C inns or luxury restaurants or hotels. Less and less are they becoming serious problems in France, although not knowing the local language is always going to keep a visitor a bit out of touch or in the dark, but as the French would say "C'est dommage, mais pas grave." I can read about 90% of any menu and 10% of any newspaper, or something like that.
ajay: ... other strategies to enhance a restaurant experience?
Interestingly enough this subject has been discussed on several occasions on other boards in reference to getting a better meal or service in NY. Demonstrate that you are a knowledgeable diner and you'll almost always fare better at the hands of a serious restaurant. If you're not a knowledgeable diner, show that you are in the process of becoming one, by displaying an interest and appreciation for the food. Chefs and waiters are serious about what they do, and will respond favorably to those who take them seriously.

As Steve Klc has posted very well. Don't try and impress them with what you don't know and show respect on their terms on their turf. If you want to prove you can dine in the best places in a jeans and a tank top decide if that's your goal when dining out. [That's not a personal criticism. I have no reason to believe ajay isn't an immaculate dresser.] It's an imposition to ask someone else to make your reservation, but if you can get Ducasse to call for you, it would demonstrate that you are a diner to be paid special attention. If you can get Ducasse to take you to dinner, believe me, you'll get special attention. I've dined with significantly less luminous cooks and it's improved my level of dining. I've also benefited from the occasional call, but you won't be penalized for making your own reservation, nor will you owe anyone favors.

Back on attire and in response to Fat Guy's comments. While I agree with Klc about dressing to show respect, I will also note that informality has long been acceptable in the countryside especially at resort restaurants where it's often the norm and is making great inroads in Paris, but Fat Guy's point that the French are likely to be better dressed when they're wearing a sweater and slacks than many of us are in a suit and tie, should not be overlooked. Although I try to dress well when dining in a nice restaurant, I've never experienced anything but fine service from a thoroughly professional staff when I was underdressed.

Fat-Guy: I have never in my life had a drink before dinner at a restaurant in France -- okay, maybe once at Les Crayeres where it's sort of obligatory on account of the pre-dinner salon-ordering procedure -- and nobody has given me any flack about it.
I've certainly not had any flack or even arm twisting. In fact I wish the sommelier at Guerard had insisted. Something like "we're going to offer you some fine morsels, you need something to cut the fat" or perhaps "You're going to sit in that plush sofa for 20-30 minutes and stuff your face. Relax and buy your wife a drink you cheap bastard."

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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I remain convinced that a system which demands an extra tip for service is inherently as demeaning as the white/black master/servant relationship which prevailed for so long in so much of America. There were always those who got around it by civilized behavior, but there was a barrier which had to be consciously crossed. Tipping takes service inevitably into the vaguely distasteful area of quasi-prostitution. How would your doctor react if you tried to slip him an extra twenty as you paid the bill? What response would, say, Daniel Barenboim make if you threw a wad of money onto the stage at the end of a Chicago Symphony concert?

In America, where even senators are generously tipped for their legislative services, it's very difficult to go against this demeaning system. Chez Panisse attempted to abolish it, but the suspicious attitude of the Infernal Revenue inspectors ultimately made it impossible to resist. Our whole economy runs so much more smoothly when it's simply assumed that everyone's on the make. It doesn't help when American waitstaff become overtly pally and introduce themselves with, "Hello, I'm George and I'll be serving you this evening!" I have a certain sympathy with wicked old Herb Caen, who is supposed to have replied, "Do you mind if I call you waiter?"

As for myself, I breathe a sigh of relief when I settle down at a French table. If a waiter treats me haughtily, I know that it's because he happens to be that sort of person and, so long as the food is good and arrives warm and more or less on time, I put up with it, grateful that I'm not expected to wave a stack of euros under his nose. The best restaurants, so far as I'm concerned, are those that make me feel as though I were being fed and served by my equals.

John Whiting, London

Whitings Writings

Top Google/MSN hit for Paris Bistros

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Is it customary to order bottled water in France?
It is far more customary to order bottle water in Europe than in the U.S. I would say the trends are reversing themselves. Far more people order bottled water in NY today than did 20 years ago and the reverse is true in France.

Very small question. In the 1960s and 70s when I was in France (mainly Normandy) for months at a time, no one I knew drank tap water. I was told the calcium levels were too high. Water was boiled before using it to make a stock, coffee, whatever. I remember the tap water tasting like liking a metal pipe.

Has the quality of the water improved?

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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I know of no place in France where the water is undrinkable either for reasons of health or taste. Some years back I found the water in Barcelona (not France, I know) horrible and have not been able to bring myself to try it on subsequent visits. I remember some young French school kid asking for a glass of tap water in the bar at the MIro musuem in Barcelona. When they finally agreed to give him a glass, he took a gulp and spit it out. I wonder if its improved.

It the water is usafe doe to microbes, boiling may work. If the water is too high in calcium or other minerals, boiling it will only remove the oxygen and concentrate the minerals. A lot of what people said, and say, about tap water is old wives tales, but if you've been warned about the water, I suppose it's a matter of better safe than sorry.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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I haven't had a problem with French tap water for years. Alas, the water of rural Scotland, which used to be spring-like in its freshness, now tastes strongly of the chlorine which is routinely added as an insurance policy. This is an aesthetic problem and politicians do not normally concern thselves with matters of taste.

Fortunately there's a cheap and simple answer for the householder. Fill a pitcher with water, cover it loosely with a napkin and let it sit for a few hours. Gradually the chlorine escapes into the atmosphere as gas. (This is a lot cheaper than using proprietary filters, which soon accumulate bacteria which are more of a potential hazard than the mineral impurities they remove.)

John Whiting, London

Whitings Writings

Top Google/MSN hit for Paris Bistros

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If the water is too high in calcium or other minerals, boiling it will only remove the oxygen and concentrate the minerals. A lot of what people said, and say, about tap water is old wives tales, but if you've been warned about the water, I suppose it's a matter of better safe than sorry.

Looking back on this, that is what I had thought. Oh well. I was also told to heavily pepper my food because it was like vitamins.

Relatives.

"I've caught you Richardson, stuffing spit-backs in your vile maw. 'Let tomorrow's omelets go empty,' is that your fucking attitude?" -E. B. Farnum

"Behold, I teach you the ubermunch. The ubermunch is the meaning of the earth. Let your will say: the ubermunch shall be the meaning of the earth!" -Fritzy N.

"It's okay to like celery more than yogurt, but it's not okay to think that batter is yogurt."

Serving fine and fresh gratuitous comments since Oct 5 2001, 09:53 PM

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Many Americans I know talk defensively about "arrogance" of the waitstaff (Maitre 'd) in "fancy" French restaurants.  They are uncomfortable and feel as they are in a battle from the start. An early lesson in a three Michelin starred restaurant taught me that from top to bottom, the staff want you to have a great experience.  Four nascent Francophile gourmets were at Table at Dodin Bouffant, when it's chef and founder was in residence (I think his name was Manier).  We had researched the place carefully and knew its signature dishes, among which was a "seafood omelette."

Our practice was often to order a fifth entree or main course "for the table" so as not to miss anythng good.  We did so here. After starters and some wait, we saw that the omelette was not to be ours.  Puzzled (after all, 3 stars!) we asked the waiter to bring it.  He looked worried.  Soon after, a tall, dignified man came up the stairs and made his way across the dining room.  My brother-in-law recgonizing him, said "oh look, there's the great man hmself."  The "great man" came directly over to our table, bowed slightly, smiled warmly and said in lovely French accented English "good evening", to which we replied, a little nervously, "good evening."  "You are enjoying your meal?" he asked.  "Oui" said we.  "I wish to tell you your meal is on the wrong track." he continued. much to our chagrin. (We were about to get a "c" in 3 star ordering.  What if the word got around?)  "I will explain."  And explain he did.

"You order the lobster bisque, yes?  And then you order the seafood omelette.  The sauce on the omelette is the same as the lobster bisque, so if you have one, you do not need the other."  Wagging his index finger from side to side like an admonishing teacher he straightened up and finished his lesson, "It is redundant."  Wrong track?  Redundant?  These were unfamiliar concepts to we untrained Americans.  At this point, a heaping plate of seafood omelette appeared and was placed in the middle of the table, family style.  Two forkfulls proved the man right.  It was quite redundant, though delicious.

From that moment on, we have always been careful to ask the captain if our meal is on the right track. More than once we were advised that an herb in the starter will clash in our aftertaste with a sauce in the main, so we might do well to pick a different starter.  Or that a particular wine would compliment a sauce better than our choice, because the sauce was made with it.  A friend was refused a cup of coffee at the start of a meal in a simple country bistro by "madame" with the reasoning that the bitterness of the coffee would ruin his palate for the meal that was to follow.  My friend explained that, if he didn't get an expresso soon, he would be asleep and unable to eat. Madame said "ahhh" and brought the coffee poste haste.  At another country bistro, we were advised to try a cold glass of sauterne with our foies gras instead of our ordered champagne.  New to the game, we agreed, and have not ordered anything but such with our foies gras since.

If you care to read my member bio, you will see how much I have learned at the hands of talented, dedicted and ambitious chefs, restauranteurs, and wait staff. We leave our defensive- ness at the door and assume the advice, or guidance of the staff is offered not to make us feel like dumb Americans, but to help us enjoy the meal.  So the best advice I'd have to getting the best from French restaurant dining is to let them do their best, ask questions, no matter how dumb they seem, and unless you really know better, take their advice.  When they see you do this, they will take responsibility for you and pride in your pleasure.

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Jaybee-Your story is great. But instead of making believe that you didn't order the omelet, they should have warned you off it when you were ordering. I find it hard to believe that a restaurant of that caliber would try and slip one by you.

My French friends always leave a small amount of change extra on top of the bill. Like it used to be anywhere between 20-100 Francs depending on, well I never quite worked that one out. I guess it goes into the waiters pocket as a real tip. A few of them just leave the amount of the bill. I must say, I much prefer the service to be included. This way if I do decide to leave anything extra it is truly a reward for good service. Even if it's a small amount to let them know they did a good job. But in places where tipping is the custom, it galls me to have to leave the requisite amount when the service is poor and I'm often angry with myself for not having more courage to leave a small tip, or no tip at all. But in the waitstaff's defense, they also get the brunt of my negative feelings about the kitchen performing poorly. Can I stiff the restaurant?

As for Whiting's assertion about tips and slavery, hmmm. What does race have to do with it? But I still think that in a world where people are supposed to be equal, the relationshion between served/server sort of flies in the face of the concept and it is awkward on some level. And to me tipping sort of highlights that conflict in a way that isn't called for. But next time I see Barenboim I'll throw a C Note at him and see what he does with it. I say he pockets it   :smile:.

As for drinks before dinner, I find that most of the better places have champagne carts with a selection of champagnes to order or to make kir-like drinks with. Many restaurants have house champagnes bottled for them in Eperney and they make lots of money selling the house bottling by the glass. And I always order Badoit if they offer it. But in places where they take you into a bar in order to present the menus and take your order (Troisgros is like that, Boyer as well,) having a real drink (Campari and Soda for me) seems more appropriate. But alcoholic drinks seem a bit out of place at one of those beautifully set tables./

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John, I agree that the tipping system is a very bad thing, but I think you've gotten a bit carried away in using it as a theory of American society. For one thing, as you are aware, it is an atypical arrangement here -- your example of the doctor and other professionals makes that clear. For another thing, tipping people in the hospitality industry such as bellmen is just as common most everywhere in the Western world as it is in the US. And I assure you, slavery is worse than tipping in every way.

Adrian, you're certainly entitled to your opinion about what is and isn't the right thing to do, but for all those reading along let me assure you absolutely that it is simply not a fact that all true gastronomes tip in France. I could give you a list as long as your arm of those who don't. It is neither required nor expected, nor even a majority practice based on the behavior I've witnessed. And routine, obligatory tipping is, as John says in essence, a vulgar practice that we shouldn't be encouraging over there. If Patricia Wells chooses to tip because she receives above-and-beyond treatment in every restaurant in the world, that doesn't change the truth of what she wrote. Her statement remains the authoritative one on the subject.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I didn't refer to "slaves" but to "servants"; race was a metaphor for an obvious superior/inferior social relationship. As to whether "tipping" is inherent in American society, my reference to senators wasn't a joke: the Enron Saga has revealed unequivocally that it's endemic.

My desire truly to be treated as an equal remains an ideal which is all too rarely realized. Friendliness without formality but also without pretense or obsequiousness: I've experienced it most memorably in Chez Panisse and l'Astrance.

John Whiting, London

Whitings Writings

Top Google/MSN hit for Paris Bistros

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John, I just don't see a connection between the culture of tipping in restaurants and the issue of bribery in politics. The latter is a problem all over the world, not just where they have tipping in restaurants. But no matter, I agree with your underlying point -- I just felt it was diminished by an overreaching conclusion.

I would add that there could be one system more cynical and wrong-headed than the mandatory/expected tipping system we have in America, and that would be a hypothetical system whereby there is a mandatory/expected tip on top of a service charge.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Whiting-How about a self-service 3 star restaurant then? They would have the sauteed foie gras in a chaffing dish waiting for you to serve yourself. Or maybe eliminating the servers isn't a big enough nod to equality. How about you have to cook your own food too? Everyone gets to go back to the kitchen to cook the Arpege tomato dish with 12 flavors.

And how about cleaning up? Let's all wash our own dishes. I mean aren't all of those people serving us? This game is fun. Let's keep peeling this onion back until I am flying the Concorde to London myself.

I'm not trying to lecture anyone by saying this but, I used to think that the notion of equality was that everyone was equal. But it really means that everyone has an equal right as to the types of choices they make. If you would prefer to be an Astro-Physicist rather than a waiter, you can choose that providing you meet the rest of the criteria. And vice-versa I might add. Some AP's might be clumsy waiters and be forced to go to grad school. Slaves were forced to be servants. People wait tables by choice. Therein lies the diginity of what they do.

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