Observer Food Monthly

[jayrayner]

Picking up on FG's last point, I'm not going to be responding to anything from Michael Lewis. I really don't need the personal abuse which is all he can come up with where I'm concerned. Before anybody argues that it's a bit rich for a restaurant critic, who sometimes writes sharp reviews, to object to abuse, I'm posting on this site  in my free time. If you wish to abuse me proefessionally feel free to do so via the email address at the bottom of my newspaper reviews, or via snail mail to me at 119 Farringdon Road London EC1 3ER. Be sure to do it in green ink on lined paper so I know what I'm getting. A few saliva stains also help.

To other stuff. Cooking is very different to literature or music, in that there is a body of work upon whcih everybody draws. I haven't yet been into a restaurant kitchen  - however high flying - which didn't have a stack of cook books on a shelf in the corner. There are very few places which have nothing on their menus that you cannot find elsewhere. They may do it better. THey may use better ingredients. But the fundementals remain the same. For what it's worth I described the Fat Duck as the most exciting in Britain (Not Europe, not the world) and I think that stands. It's irrelevant whether it draws upon things going on elswhere. (Although from conversations I have had with Heston I do believe he is a free thinker, pursuing a similar route to others, not a knock off merchant.) To return to the literature analogy, saying that you can't have two or three chefs working through the same ideas is a little like saying we don't need Salman Rushdie because Gabriel Garcia Marquez has already done the magic realism thing.

As to how one goes about judging restaurants as a newspaper critic, I have said this before elsewhere but I will say it again. I am employed to write a column that will sell newspapers. that is all. Not to serve gastronomy or the restaurant business; sell newspapers. How one does that is an issue for debate. I do it by trying to relate my experience to the expectations of most ordinary people. That means, in short, that my column probably is not aimed at most of the people who post here. By the level of your interest you are not most normal people. Most of you probably know more about food than I do. However my editors reckon I write a good column and, for them, that's what counts.

Naturally my level of knowledge has increased as I have gone on in the job. Funnily enough I don't think that has improved the column. I have to remind myself not to become too propeller head about it all because experience has shown me that, when I do, the readers switch off. When they do that I am no use to anybody. I do believe it is possible, based on average experience of restaurants, to judge whether  a place is any good or not.

Somewhere along the line I may have hijacked this thread. It wasn't the intention.

[Fat Guy]

Your cooption -- unintentional of course -- of this thread has been a good thing, in that it has made for a very interesting thread.

I would add something to your mission statement: If, consistent with your employer's clear mission to sell papers, you can meet two other goals, I think it is a good thing. The first additional goal is education of the readers in an incremental manner over time. Not beating them over the head with esoteric culinary minutiae, but helping to increase their level of appreciation of dining through sharing your knowledge and enthusiasm. The second additional goal is improvement of the restaurant industry through the tools of criticism. I think you're doing this anyway, but I just wanted to bring it to the fore as an issue.

It's also worth noting that there is considerable doubt regarding what exactly does and doesn't sell papers. There is no reliable way to track who is reading any specific story in a newspaper, and not every story has to appeal to every reader. There are also ways to build a newspaper's overall sales that have nothing to do with how many people read a story. For one thing, there is the ability to attract advertisers, which is probably a mission with priority over even the selling of papers. This often involves the question of what demographic a particular type of content appeals to -- and fine dining content without a doubt appeals to a very attractive demographic. For another thing, there is the question of prestige. There are journalism awards to consider. There is the reputation of the newspaper as a quality source of news and opinion. Many times, when editors and managers say something will or will not sell papers they don't really know what they're talking about. It is often up to a columnist to chart new territory and establish an audience that nobody knew existed.

That being said, I've written some real dreck at the request of editors that didn't see eye to eye with me on the above.

[Jason Perlow]

Quote: from jayrayner on 3:32 pm on Oct. 17, 2001

Picking up on FG's last point, I'm not going to be responding to anything from Michael Lewis. I really don't need the personal abuse which is all he can come up with where I'm concerned. Before anybody argues that it's a bit rich for a restaurant critic, who sometimes writes sharp reviews, to object to abuse, I'm posting on this site  in my free time. If you wish to abuse me proefessionally feel free to do so via the email address at the bottom of my newspaper reviews, or via snail mail to me at 119 Farringdon Road London EC1 3ER. Be sure to do it in green ink on lined paper so I know what I'm getting. A few saliva stains also help.

Jayrayner:

Just so that you understand, its not the policy of this board to condone abuse of ANYONE, let alone professional food writers such as yourself. However, because we are a "free speech" site, we can't and will not censure our users or alter their posts, even if its "flamebait" material. The only things we can and will delete from the site is obscene and hateful material and blatant commercial spam. LML has his reasons for choosing this particular fight, obviously. I guess he just doesn't like you. It happens :)

Still, I hope you don't feel dissuaded from participating on and using our site, as we greatly appreciate it and are flattered when professional writers come on here and share their thoughts with us. I know you had some bad experiences on another board -- as did many of our current users, so I hope you take this gesture as a breaking of the bread, so to speak.

And while we are on the subject, since Fat Guy will not ask for it directly, I WILL. Guys,  lets keep the discussion civil, even if you don't agree with someone, thanks.

None of this, of course, applies to Andy. You can beat the living daylights out of him verbally as much as you please :)  

[yvonne johnson]

The question of what constitutes a good restaurant review probably deserves a thread of its own, and I’ll start one. Enjoyment of the food is no doubt the customer’s main criterion when judging a restaurant, but should we expect more from a professional reviewer?

If I understand Michael’s argument (here and elsewhere http://www.chowhound.com/boards/intl/messages/4442.html, it is incumbent upon journalists to provide a wider perspective. Rather than see a restaurant in isolation, a restaurant--especially one that claims to be innovative and experimenting with weird concoctions—should be compared to its predecessors and peers. Is focusing on one restaurant, as though in a vacuum, akin to writing an essay on Plato without mentioning Socrates, claiming to be a travel expert but never leaving one’s home town? I’m overstating my case if restaurant reviewing is considered lowly and wider considerations are deemed irrelevant.

If Blumenthal is borrowing from Martin Berasategui in San Sebatian, Michel Bras, Ferran Adria, desserts from Olivier Roellinger, as Lord M. is arguing and then presenting these creations as his own, and getting media attention on the basis that he is a genius…well, might there be a problem here?

My question is: has anyone other than Michael been to the Fat Duck AND one (or more) of the other restaurants above? I’m seeking an empirical answer to the question about whether Blumenthal is a plagiarist.

By the way, I agree that debate should be civil, but, in my experience, journalists can look after themselves (not so, jayrayner?), and questions should keep coming. That’s what makes debate..well..debate.

(Edited by yvonne johnson at 10:39 pm on Oct. 17, 2001)

[Fat Guy]

Quote: from yvonne johnson on 10:36 pm on Oct. 17, 2001

If Blumenthal is borrowing from Martin Berasategui in San Sebatian, Michel Bras, Ferran Adria, desserts from Olivier Roellinger, as Lord M. is arguing and then presenting these creations as his own, and getting media attention on the basis that he is a genius…well, might there be a problem here?

Maybe, if the dishes really are exact copies. But my investigation into the first of the good Lord's examples indicates this is not so. Perhaps the idea of using cuttlefish as the wrapping for a ravioli or canneloni comes from El Bulli. I don't know. It may have been invented there, or somewhere else. But as far as I can tell what El Bulli serves is (or was, since the menu is ever-changing) a cuttlefish and coconut ravioli with ginger. At the Fat Duck, the dish is "cuttlefish cannelloni of duck and maple syrup, parsley broth." According to a New York Times article by R.W. Apple, Jr. (May 31, 2000), the procedure at the Fat Duck is to cut cuttlefish bodies into rectangles and then freeze them to break down the molecules, thus tenderizing them. The filling consists of preserved duck, duck ham, foie gras, cuttlefish and maple syrup, served in a parsley puree. Are these the same dishes? It seems to me they are related only in the most attenuated way. Or has El Bulli really done the Fat Duck version of cuttlefish-wrapped stuff already? Do they even freeze the cuttlefish at El Bulli? If so I'm sure a reference to it can be found in the amazing database on El Bulli's Web site.

This is of course just one dish on a rather extensive and frequently evolving menu. If there are, say, thirty items on the Fat Duck menu and a few of them are similar to dishes served elsewhere, that doesn't bother me in the least. And I remain far from convinced that the Fat Duck menu contains even that degree of direct borrowing. Mr. Apple's story on the Fat Duck lists so many audacious and original dishes that it makes this debate seem preposterous: Feuillantine of crab with marinated salmon, roasted foie gras, crystallized seaweed and oyster vinaigrette; bastilla of pigeon with cherries and unsweetened Manjari chocolate; etc. It also seems clear from this article that Mr. Blumenthal has no reservations about acknowledging his debts to his intellectual mentors Ferran Adria and Michel Bras.

Looking through several other articles I have on El Bulli, and others I have on the Fat Duck -- some by food writers I trust and who I'm certain have dined at both places -- I just can't see any scandalous similarity in the cuisines. There is surely a shared experimental attitude (the list of Mr. Blumenthal's science-based culinary innovations is quite impressive, at least to me), and no doubt innovations in technique by one are closely monitored by the other, but that seems the extent of it.

[Jon Tseng]

Still don't quite get the plagiarism thing:

When people talk about this they seem to imply someone is copying either an ingredient combination, a technique or both.  Two words. Pigs Trotters. Two more. Duck confit. A few more. Any kind of seafood and a vanilla sauce. And more: beurre blance 70's revival and derivatives thereof.

If Heston Blumenthal is a plagiarist then so is Marco, Nico, Gordon, Alain, Joel, Paul B and, in fact, anyone who has ever adapted a method/flavour combination ever used before (so that would be the entire academie culinarie de france then. <grin>). So you can't really have a go at someone for taking inspiration from what everyone else does.

Can you have a go at someone for taking inspiration for others and claim its was all their own idea? Well yes in theory but I think Heston has provided pretty definitive evidence that he /does/ think for himself.

Two words: Lime/potato. Two more: Caviar/chocolate. two more: spoon-feeding (and we're not talking ADNY here...)

Having eaten chez Heston a couple of times and talked to the guy I would say he is more original than 99.99% of the chefs you are likely to see; which is good enuff for me.

J

PS viz cuttlefish ravioli, couldn't you argue adria was plagiarising carpaccio for freezing his beef before slicing it thin (technique), or that recipe in charlie trotters book where he makes 'ravioli' with thinly sliced turnip (ie idea of making ravioli with thinly slices of something-that-isn't-pasta).  Seems arguments around is it plagiariam/taking inspiration miss the point that no man is an island.

Heck, is an arugment I see over there, or just another mobius strip? ;-)

[Lord Michael Lewis]

'Methinks the "critic" doth protest too much.'

And anyway what are Rayner's comments about my mental health if not abusive and personal?

(Not that I am offended)

Can any posters, Perlow included, find any personal abuse towards Rayner on my part?

[Fat Guy]

My Lord: I've got to concede, having re-read this thread as you requested, that we may have been a bit overprotective of Jay, who, as Yvonne rightly points out, surely can take care of himself. Speaking for myself, I was simply reacting to a situation where a new user appeared and came under fire on day one of his eGullet life. It caused me to worry that he would disappear rather than choose to deal with the headache. But you're right, and we shouldn't selectively coddle our users. Go ahead and let him have it, though I'd much prefer you went after Andy. In any event, I hope we can continue to have the substantive part of this discussion without regard for the unnecessary detour into the civility/uncivility issue, for which I am to blame.

Jon: I was thinking about examples of culinary borrowing that I have found offensive, and I did come up with one. There's a hot dog place in Connecticut called the Super Duper Weenie http://www.superduperweenie.com/ and the owner -- perhaps the only hot dog stand owner with a degree from the Culinary Institute of America -- has devised a number of exceptionally creative garnish combinations for his hot dogs and he has given them names like "The New Englander," etc. A hot dog place recently opened elsewhere in Connecticut and, lo and behold, began to offer the exact same menu. I mean the exact same menu. Same names, same garnish combinations, and listed in the same order no less. But this is a rare and extreme instance. Most culinary borrowing is much more in bounds. For example I'd have thought nothing of it if the new hot dog place borrowed the New Englander and placed it on a menu that was in no other way a copy of the Super Duper Weenie's. I'll also say that there is a point to be made short of calling a chef a culinary plagiarist. If I may be so bold as to state a more mild version of the Lord's argument, I think what may be irking him is not so much anything Mr. Blumenthal has done but rather that most of the food writers covering the Fat Duck do not have sufficient depth of experience to identify the Fat Duck's influences and to hold it up to the standard set by those influences. Thus he may feel that Mr. Blumenthal is getting accolades in excess of what he deserves. To that I would simply say: Welcome to the world of the food media. This kind of coverage is ubiquitous, and I wouldn't single out Mr. Blumenthal as a recipient of such treatment. It is the treatment accorded almost any chef profiled in any food magazine or newspaper food section. It is the treatment accorded almost anybody -- chef or not -- profiled in the media, period. Most journalists, especially food journalists, are incompetent. Jay is not incompetent. From what I've read, he's the real deal. So he's the last guy I'd blame for the overall failings of the media.

[Steve Klc]

Jon and Jay--to deal with just one specific dish, you've both mentioned: Heston's white chocolate disc with caviar.  I suspect, but cannot say definitively, that his inspiration for this amuse was the "white chocolate with black olive paste" amuse--also a thin disk--that Ferran was serving at El Bulli for a time. Having had neither, my suspicion is that both work well, for the same reasoning--a surprising balance of fat, mouthfeel, sweet and salt.

Does any of this matter?  I suggest no, not one wit.

Both of these creations are inspired and challenging, regardless of the inspiration behind them.  If my suspicion is true, and Adria did the white chocolate savory thing first--so what?  It is hopelessly naive to suggest plagiarism and disingenuous to infer that "borrowing" another chef's concepts or techniques is in the slightest bit negative.

The most talented (and many not-so-talented) chefs and pastry chefs openly share, steal, collaborate, co-opt, compete and challenge each other--all the time.  This should not come as a surprise to anyone.  In my experience, the talented chefs have very few secrets and are quite willing to share.

The larger issue here, possibly, is the role of the media in hyping and creating a chef's image and talent--and possibly creating a false impression.  There is just so much of the media and financial pie, in any given era, to go around.  The smart chefs admit this, pay homage and respect to their influences, and go about their business--which is making a living and providing for their family.

Is it possible for chefs, especially young and ambitious chefs, to say something stupid and narcissitic occasionally? Yes.  So what?

Anyone think the media characterization of a chef is the inviolate true one?  Do we have so much respect for food writers to assume that they never overstate, mis-quote or mis-characterize in print?  As a chef, I have given so many in-depth interviews to writers, took pains to be clear and pay homage to those that came before, explained techniques and processes of others that I have borrowed or re-imagined--only to have my comments summarized and mischaracterized. I trust Heston has sufferred the same fate.  This begins to go to Yvonne's point about a chef "getting media attention on the basis that he is a genius."

Does anyone think it is possible for chefs to control what is written about them?  Again, I think not.  I don't ask chefs to approve what I've written about them--and neither do I expect a writer to approve what they plan to write about me.

If anyone has some specific references or printed comments, from legitimate print media sources or television interview transcripts involving this presumed Heston/Adria imbroglio, let's post the links or quotes here and dissemble them. (Not petty, unverifiable third hand reports or conversations overheard at table, please.)  

Should Jay Rayner be faulted for not knowing or not mentioning in his wonderful article that Ferran or some other chef, somewhere, may have already combined white chocolate with a savory element in disc form?  Of course not.

Last I looked there was a difference between a one-star Michelin chef and a three-star Michelin chef in terms of recognition, prestige and respect.  Let's keep media things in perspective, too--since when has any media outlet or writer ever only written about the truly talented, worthy and significant?  

 

[jayrayner]

Unsurprisingly, being a journalist, I find this suspicion of media interest in chefs rather odd. No one questions the media's interest in film directors, writers, actors etc. they may accuse the media of hype occasionally. But they do not suggest outright that they are not desreving of coverage. And yet I detect here a certain beliefe that a chef who shows an interest in the media is somehow a traitor to his craft. restaurants are businesses with difficult margins. Chefs, those at the top of their game, tne dot be business-people with a large number of employees to maintain. I can see nothing wrong or unpure about pursuing that interest.  But, as I say, I'm a hack. I would think like this.

Fat Guy: your point about lots of different things eeling newspaper is, of course, right. The distinction I was tryting to make was between writing about restaurants for an expert/academic readership and writing for the general crowd. If I were writing for those with expertise, obviously I would have to apporach the job in a different way.

On the plagiarism point, we all seem to be agreeing that all chefs stand on the shoulders of others. incidentally weren't the Mayans some of the first to use chcoclate (albeit dark) in savoury meat dishes?

Finally the boring MLewis thing. I'm not expecting anybody to defend me. But he did finish one very early post with the line

<<Once again you bring your professional integrity into question, but worse still you debase the Observer, a once great newspaper.>>

I don't see anybody else being attacked like this, anywhere on the board. If you think I'm being overly sensitive fine, I'll piss off out of it. Tell your friends I'm a whimp and don't buy the Observer. I only pitched in because you were discussing something with which I was involved. But I see no particular reason why I should put up with plane old ranting. My solution - simply not to respond to him - is more considered than my response to it on chowhound, giving up, but I'm happy to do the same again if it would be less controversial.

[jayrayner]

The line to which I was objecting, but which did not paste in above was:

Once again you bring your professional integrity into question, but worse still you debase the observer, a once great newspaper.

[Fat Guy]

Steve, another point with regard to Ferran Adria specifically: I might feel a greater sense of injustice were there some obscure chef toiling in the countryside, unrecognized by the media, yet inspiring thousands of other chefs. Mr. Adria is not that man. He is one of the most publicly lauded chefs of this generation, and for good reason. It is unlikely that any chef engaged in forward-thinking contemporary cooking has not been influenced by him. Thus I think it would grow a bit tiresome for every article about every contemporary chef to acknowledge Mr. Adria. He has received plenty of good publicity and that more than satisfies my overall sense of justice in that for the most part the right people are getting recognized for the right things in this instance.

Despite some locking of horns, this has been a fascinating discussion. I hope it will continue, with all original participants participating.

[robert brown]

What I want to know is what Heston Blumenthal can do to a kreplach.

[Jason Perlow]

I must say, if this is as uncivil as it gets on this site, I'll be very happy indeed...

[Andy Lynes]

Last time I went through this particular loop it resulted in the following article http://www.alynes.freeserve.co.uk/heston.html which includes a link to some notes that Heston passed to me that explained what he was up to in his kitchen at that particular time which you can find at http://www.alynes.freeserve.co.uk/hnotes.html. This shouls allow those of you interested enough to compare Hestons notes with the articles at the el bulli site and make your own minds up. Short of actually experiencing the two restaurants for yourself, this may settle the arguement.          

(Edited by Andy Lynes at 11:24 pm on Oct. 18, 2001)

[Lord Michael Lewis]

Whilst I in no way encourage Heston Blumenthal's methods he does have a business to run and, from what I've read, several mouths to feed.  I can understand at least the 'why' of things.

The problem arises when his 'borrowings' cause critics and guides laud him as this 'obsessive genius', because he isn't. If types like Rayner don't know what's going on outside their limited spheres and don't feel they they should know, who then does it fall to to point out that the Emperor has no clothes?

P.S. Andy, I think for balance's sake you should also include a link to your very negative Fat Duck 'A big fat disappointment' review. Readers may enjoy comparing your greatly differing opinions both pre and post the Blumenthal charm-offensive.

[Andy Lynes]

Micheal, there's a link to the original article in the second one, and I do draw attention to the fact that I had a bad experience on my first visit in the first paragraph of the second article.

Genius, as we all know if a very over used term, however having met Heston, I would have no hesitation in describing him as obssesive.

I also have no problem with the press describing him as such because I very much doubt that the locals of Bray, or for that matter any of the Fat Duck's core customer base, when deciding where to eat think, "I refuse to step over the threshold of a restaurant unless the chef is an obsessive genius". They just want something nice to eat and have sufficient disposable income to be able to do so at Heston's place. Probably one of the reasons he opened up there in the first place.

I think that we have now heard boths sides of this arguement and are in serious danger of repeating ourselves. Would it be OK if we called a halt at this point?

    

[Fat Guy]

Andy, I'll meet you half way. There are really two issues here: First, is the Fat Duck a great restaurant and does Heston Blumenthal deserve all his accolades. Second, is Heston Blumenthal an immoral person deserving of exposure.

The first of those issues is a matter of opinion, and moreover it is one on which I have nothing to say. For all I know, I'd hate the restaurant if I dined there.

The second issue, however, can be resolved in the arena of fact. And at this time I see no evidence whatsoever that Heston Blumenthal has done anything unethical, dodgy, or even the slightest bit out of line with the long-established unwritten code of conduct the culinary industry has set for itself.

So I am more than happy to let go of the first point. But as to the second, a man's honor has been challenged -- a good man's honor, from what I can tell based on the evidence I've seen --  and I therefore feel an obligation to defend it. So if the good Lord wishes to persist in repeating his claim without responding to the numerous well-developed arguments that have been leveled against it, I feel compelled to repeat that his claim has at this point been thoroughly discredited.

I'm not a partisan here. I have no loyalty to or affiliation with Heston Blumenthal. I could easily be converted by the presentation of some convincing evidence. I have seen none.

As the host of another board on this site, I know how annoying it is to have unpleasant conflict -- as opposed to healthy debate -- on the boards. It makes the site look bad, it tends to create a downward spiral of uncivility, and it discourages potential users from joining the discussion. At the same time I won't allow that discomfort alone to cause me to back away from a fight where accusations of this nature have been made. I'd also add that, while there has been some ugliness in this thread, we've held it together pretty well and if you look past the worst of it it's quite an interesting argument.

This is all quite aside from Jay getting criticized here. But since Jay has chosen to defend himself I won't do it for him. I'd like to see Heston Blumenthal come here and relieve us of that obligation as well.

Or we can leave it at that.

[Simon Majumdar]

Whatever the ins and outs of this discussion, may I cap it off by saying that I still think the OFm is a rag that already looks tired after a mere six months and deserves no more than to disappear up its own back side.

Jay aside, I think the phrase I am thinking of using for the rest of the lazy assed journo's there ends in "and the horse they rode in on"

[Fat Guy]

Oh, is that what this thread was about? :)

Andy, since you're obviously in touch or capable of getting in touch with Heston Blumenthal, why not ask him about the good Lord's list of accusations? Perhaps he'll be willing to respond here, or perhaps he'll e-mail you privately with some notes that you can paraphrase.

It has been claimed, as referenced above, that:

"His canneloni of cuttlefish is from El Bulli is Girona, as are many more of his garnishes and taste combinations."

"Anyone who is familiar with Michel Bras' cooking will feel a sense of deja-vu when dining at the Fat Duck."

"The terrine of foie gras and smoked eel is a famous starter from Martin Berasategui in San Sebatian."

"And the much praised peanut caramel is a dessert from Olivier Roellinger."

The second of those accusations (which I'd actually take as a compliment were I a chef) is a bit too vague to be answered by factual argument, but the other three are pretty specific and could be addressed.

[Andy Lynes]

Steven - Heston has already defended himself against the allegations made by our good Lord on another site. Heston has promised to have a look at egullet when he gets the time, but I am pretty sure that he won't want to go through all this again, in the same way that I don't. I will also be a little embarressed if Heston does look in and all he sees is the same old crap being spouted about him as has been on other boards.  

As I've said, the upshot of the first little spat was Heston's offer for anyone to discuss the issues with him face to face and try out the restaurant on him so they could make their minds up. I was the only person to take up that offer and I felt obliged to report back, which I have done.

I can catagoricaly state for the record that Heston refutes any claims of "plagerism", should such a thing exist in the culinery world, and was extremely offended by the allegations. All dishes served in his restaurants are the results of development work carried out in his own kitchen with the assistance of specialists such as Herve This and the flavourings company Fermier.

Along with the detailed notes I mentioned in my last "final" message, Heston also showed me results of tests carried out on the chemical composition of white chocolate and caviar by Fermier at his request. The result of these tests led to the creation of his chocolate and caviar buttons. Fermier also supply the ingredient which allows the cocolate to be melted at a low temperature so that the flavour of the caviar is not damage by exposure to high levels of heat.

Even if other chefs around the world have been through this process themselves, Heston has done it independently of them as far as I know. It's all a bit more complex than looking it up in a book, or just appropriating an idea.

If as Steven says, anyone has impirical evidence that what I have described, as related to me by Heston, did not happen, then lets have it. Also, any details of how any other items on Hestons present or past menus got on there other than being developed by the man himself, we would also be very interested to hear about.

Simply saying that one dish is similar too or inspired by another will not be sufficient. You will need to provide complete and accurate ingredient lists for both dishes, describe exact methods for both and be able to catagoricaly state, with evidence, of precisely when the dishes first appeared on both menus so that it can be established who got there first.

Further unsupported allegations will add nothing at all to this debate. I am getting very tired and bored of hearing them. they are not what this site is about. As I very seriously doubt whether anyone will be able to meet the critieria I have specified can we now close this arguement?      

     

(Edited by Andy Lynes at 2:29 pm on Oct. 19, 2001)

[Fat Guy]

It does seem that at this point the accusations against Mr. Blumenthal have been so thoroughly discredited that there is little need for him to respond. Still I would love to hear from him on this or any other topic.

[Andy Lynes]

Steve - Heston has responed to those specific points on "the other site" already. I don't wish to labour the point, but Heston was really pissed off about what happened there, and therefore to ask him to repeat it all for our sakes is to add insult to injury.

I would also point out that The Fat Duck numbers amongst it's fans the likes of Matthew Fort, who as far as I can tell is nobodies fool, has eaten abroad, although at el bulli I know not, and I imagine would not risk his reputation in order to give a chef publicity that didn't deserve it. And why indeed would he?

If LML were correct, there would have to be some bizarre conspiracy between journo's writing for any number of papers, radio 4, the food guides and Heston's customers, plus all the scientists who happily work with him to present Heston as something he is not. What, as Harry Hill says, are the chances of that happening, eh?    

LML - do you have any proof that the critics you so deride have not in fact heard of or eaten at the restaurants you have sited in your accusations. I'm sure thay are as capable of looking at Michel Bras website as I am if they havent had the opportunity to eat there.

There is no conspiricy of silence. And if there is, I'm keeping quiet about it. Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you.      

[Andy Lynes]

Although this site is a free speech zone, we are still subject to the same laws as any other media. I am sure that if Heston Blumenthal was of a mind to, he could quite reasonably sue for deformation of character based on some of the things that have been said on this thread. Perhaps Steve Shaw could verify that statement. I certainly hope egullet have no liability for allowing the statements to stand.

 

[Fat Guy]

I don't know of any case of a discussion board site being sued for defamation, no less successfully. US and UK law are quite different, though, and UK law makes defamation claims much easier to pursue than US. In the US, pretty much any expression of opinion is protected absolutely, and expressions of mixed opinion and fact are usually covered under that umbrella as well. It is only factual misstatements that are demonstrably false, defamatory, and damaging that have a chance of forming the basis of a successful claim, and even there a retraction (which has not been requested here) usually suffices to defuse the claim. In the UK as I understand it the threshold for a defamation claim is much lower. I doubt this site would be subject to UK law, however -- although it's arguable. But LML would be the more likely defendant, as an individual. Not that this site has any money anyway. :)

But I'm definitely coming around to your point of view, Andy, that this has played itself out and that any objective reader of this thread would conclude that there is no merit to the suggestion that Heston Blumenthal's cuisine is unoriginal. And I hope he'll someday post something on eGullet, though perhaps not on this thread. :)