Vegan landlord bans meat-eaters

[mjr_inthegardens]

but again...if one likes vegetables and choses to eat vegetables only, why are there meat substitutes?

To try and convert carnivores.

[tryska]

"mmm....try the tofu hotdog....you'll like it....."

[andiesenji]

I am willing to bet that Santa Cruz, where I live, has more vegans per capita than most cities represented on this board. While some of them are vegans out of sheer compassion, which extends to animals and humans, most of my encounters have been with the unpleasant, condescending, holier-than-thou kind like the staff from Millennium.

Thereby dispelling my longheld view of Santa Cruz as a "live and let eat" environment ..... one full of laid back aging hippies who live for their 60's retro lifestyle .. like whatever, man .. chill out ...

My daughter mentioned that she toyed with vegetarianism briefly while attending Berkeley. I think that she began feeling faint at times and then someone waved a steak under her nose and that was the end of that experiment.

[mongo_jones]

but again...if one likes vegetables and choses to eat vegetables only, why are there meat substitutes?

tryska,

you could ask this of many hardcore hindu vegetarians as well: "if you won't eat meat then why use hing "asafoetida" whose primary property is to impart a "meaty" aroma/flavor to veg. dishes?" of course, you can't ask this of hardcore jains who not only don't eat meat, they don't even eat garlic or onions.

i say, eat what you like, and leave other people alone if they don't eat it or have principles about this that seem bizarre to you. this applies to vegans, vegetarians, fans of foie-gras etc.

there do seem to be more publicly evangelical vegans than carnivores in the u.s, but you wouldn't think so from egullet.

mongo

[tryska]

hing is supposed to give a meaty aroma? i did not know that. i just thought it gave a certain...je ne sais quoi.

actually speaking of jains..do they use ghee and milk products? my sister was syaing jains are vegan, based on one lady in her apartment complex, but i thought they used milk products.

as for people and their eating habits, i could care less one way or the other, as long as you're not forcing me to eat what you eat, but that doesn't mean i can't find tofurkey utterly puzzling when there's alu gobi to be had.

Edited August 2, 2004 by tryska (log)

[mongo_jones]

but again...if one likes vegetables and choses to eat vegetables only, why are there meat substitutes?

tryska,

you could ask this of many hardcore hindu vegetarians as well: "if you won't eat meat then why use hing "asafoetida" whose primary property is to impart a "meaty" aroma/flavor to veg. dishes?" of course, you can't ask this of hardcore jains who not only don't eat meat, they don't even eat garlic or onions.

just to clarify: i say this because there seems to be a distinction being made between "inauthentic" vegetarians in the u.s and u.k and "authentic" ones in, say, india. the fact is that hindu and jain vegetarianism is rooted in exactly the same principles of respect for animal life etc--not in the absence of flesh to eat. it just has been around so long and there are so many vegetarians in india that these principles don't need to be registered publicly.

on the other hand it is far more difficult to be a vegetarian in the u.s. you almost have to get forced into a separate, fringe lifestyle--gelatin, beef-broth, lard etc. are everywhere. and being a vegetarian, even a non-programmatic one, marks you as a comic target for everyone else seemingly. now, i have eaten raw blood and live animals, and can't ever see myself becoming a vegetarian, but i can understand why so many vegetarians in the u.s end up being strident.

as for gustatory vegetarian traditions in the u.s and u.k--presumably in a couple of centuries these too will have solidified and diversified. the beginnings of this seem to already be among us.

[Katherine]

I think it's noteworthy that actually liking the food they choose to eat is not a particularly high priority for most Western vegetarians, and this is clearly reflected in the overall poor gustatory quality of Western vegetarian cuisine.

I think you're coming to this conclusion with absolutely nothing to back it up. It's an assumption on your part (and one I disagree with), not a conclusion of any sort. You're assuming that if a person doesn't actually say "I'm a vegetarian because I love vegetables," then it means he doesn't really like vegetables, or doesn't really care about how they taste one way or the other; that his philosophy, whatever it may be, overrides matters of taste or likes and dislikes. I think it's much more likely that, if asked, a vegetarian won't say it because he'll assume it's a given that he likes vegetables, and then get on to his other reasons, whatever they may be, because those reasons are not "givens."

And yes, I agree with mongo_jones, evangelism is a terrible bore, isn't it.

On the contrary, we could slightly edit the sentence to read, "Actually liking the food they choose to eat is not a particularly high priority for most Americans, and this is clearly reflected in the overall poor gustatory quality of American cuisine."

(Not speaking of a handful of exceptional restaurants in any metropolitan area, but of "cuisine" as representing the eating preferences of the majority of Americans here.)

Why would vegetarians be any different than most other Americans, when it comes to the quality of their food choices?

[Laksa]

but again...if one likes vegetables and choses to eat vegetables only, why are there meat substitutes?

My guess is that some vegetarians would like to eat meat, but don't because they are compelled because of religious or other reasons?

I have a colleague whose wife is a vegan and raw foodist, but he's not as enthusiastic about that. He often complains about the food that's served at home, but I guess he goes along with that diet to keep the peace.

[tryska]

well bless his heart.

this whole thread is reminding me of a show i watched last week on UPN. It was called Amish in the City. apparently the premise is that these amish folk come to LA to live real-world style with some "city kids" as they call them. well in any case - a vegan chef is one of the housemates.

everyone else eats meat, i guess. there were a lot of shots of her whining. someone was making scrambled eggs for breakfast the first day and whizzed them in the blender (which is brilliant - i dunno why i never thought of that) and she was pouting and saying that "now the blender is contaminated". then she got to do the grocery shopping for everyone else. And basically did not or grudgingly bought foods that the others would eat (milk, eggs, i don't know if she bought any meat).

i was very turned off by that. if you don't eat the same way others around you eat, you make do as best you can, with the least amount of whining etc. i've been int hat situation tons of times, as over the years, i've gone through all sorts of "i don't eat that", still you make do, and find a way around obstacles.

[mongo_jones]

everyone else eats meat, i guess.  there were a lot of shots of her whining.  someone was making scrambled eggs for breakfast the first day and whizzed them in the blender (which is brilliant - i dunno why i never thought of that) and she was pouting and saying that "now the blender is contaminated".

tryska, i come from a context where some people won't even use the same sets of pots and pans for cooking veg. and non veg. dishes. some rich households will even employ different cooks (a brahmin one for veg.). an ex-girlfriend's grandfather would have to bathe again if he accidentally touched me on his way to a meal with religious significance (though this may have been for other reasons too--i recommend everyone who touches me sterilize themselves shortly thereafter). so complaining about a blender which has been "contaminated" with eggs seems very reasonable to me. one could ask why the majority meat-eating room-mates didn't take her needs into consideration as well.

i have some jain friends working on your other question--will get back to you.

Edited August 2, 2004 by mongo_jones (log)

[tryska]

cool thanks.

and this my own prejudice, but i understand cross-contamination from a religious perspective, but not from a lifestyle choice perspective.

[jschyun]

Michael Sosner says vegetarians make good tenants, saying they are sociable, healthier and prefer to live in a meat-free environment.  But the meat trade said that, while he had the right to pick tenants, he was excluding 97% of the population. "There's a different energy in vegan and vegetarian places which is very peaceful and comforting."

However, Graham Bidston, of the National Federation of Meat and Food Traders, said: "It's his choice of course. "He is rather limiting his customer base to about 3% of the population."

Your "take" on this idea?? Are his arguments sound??

Well, I don't know that vegetarians are always healthier, but in general, the ones I know are actually pretty healthy and active. However, i did read a piece in a magazine for vegans, about some vegan staffers who went on the Atkins diet (vegan version). They lost weight and ate more veggies while on the diet!

Sociable vegetarians? Well, I guess it depends on the vegetarian. I don't get that one.

Most vegetarians I know live with non-vegetarians. Not sure about the vegans. Also, this is a huge generalization, but I feel like vegetarians of my acquaintance do seem to care more about the environment, animals and other stuff like that.

Yes this dude is limiting his customer base to 3% of the population, but he is small enough so that this niche market may be sufficient for his rental business. Even in California, I don't think this type of discrimation, based on eating habits, is illegal. There are a host of other things you cannot discriminate againt, but you can even get around those under certain circumstances.

FWIW, I like the American vegetarian junk food. I love veggie corn dogs as I have mentioned a million and a half times on this board. I'll never go back.

[gingerly]

and this my own prejudice, but i understand cross-contamination from a religious perspective, but not from a lifestyle choice perspective.

um..seems like lifestyle choices are the new religion..kind of.

[Gifted Gourmet]

um..seems like lifestyle choices are the new religion..kind of.

and if it isn't your own particular lifestyle, it immediately gets the adjective "alternate" attached to it??

[tryska]

and this my own prejudice, but i understand cross-contamination from a religious perspective, but not from a lifestyle choice perspective.

um..seems like lifestyle choices are the new religion..kind of.

yeah seems that way huh? i'm going to have to figure out how i feel about all that.

[gingerly]

um..seems like lifestyle choices are the new religion..kind of.

and if it isn't your own particular lifestyle, it immediately gets the adjective "alternate" attached to it??

guess that's where what,how (and if )you practise comes in no?

[slkinsey]

I think it's noteworthy that actually liking the food they choose to eat is not a particularly high priority for most Western vegetarians, and this is clearly reflected in the overall poor gustatory quality of Western vegetarian cuisine.

I think you're coming to this conclusion with absolutely nothing to back it up. It's an assumption on your part (and one I disagree with), not a conclusion of any sort. You're assuming that if a person doesn't actually say "I'm a vegetarian because I love vegetables," then it means he doesn't really like vegetables, or doesn't really care about how they taste one way or the other; that his philosophy, whatever it may be, overrides matters of taste or likes and dislikes. I think it's much more likely that, if asked, a vegetarian won't say it because he'll assume it's a given that he likes vegetables, and then get on to his other reasons, whatever they may be, because those reasons are not "givens."

And yes, I agree with mongo_jones, evangelism is a terrible bore, isn't it.

Think about it this way: Vegetarians are given a questionnaire about vegetarianism. Among the questions is something like this:

Please examine the following list of potential reasons why you are a vegetarian and select the top 5 reasons, ranking them 1-5 according to how important these reasons are to your choice, with 5 being the most important:

• Political reasons
  
• Health concerns
  
• Ethical considerations
  
• I don't know
  
• Religion
  
• Don't like the taste of meat
  
• Love to eat vegetables
  
• Blah
  
• Blah
  
• Blah
  

Okay... now, suppose that they give this questionnaire to some large sample of Western vegetarians and the results show that health considerations is the huge #1 reason, followed by ethical considerations, followed by political reasons, etc. with "love to eat vegetables" way down on the list. What does this tell us? It tells us that a gustatory preference for and appreciation of vegetarian cooking is not particularly important to most vegetarians in making this dietary choice.

As Mongo correctly points out, perhaps this is due to the fact that Western vegetarian cuisine is so young. In contrast to most Western vegetarian cuisine (and I hope no one is arguing that the state of Western vegetarian cuisine is particularly good from a gustatory standpoint compared to Western omniverous cuisine, because this seems false on its face), Indian vegetarian cuisine is varied and delicious. Why? Well, because it isn't really a choice for most of these people -- or, if it is, it is only a choice insofar as one's religion is a choice (and for plenty, if not most people in the world, one's religion is not percieved a choice). What this means is that they didn't decide to eat a vegetarian diet, they started out with a vegetarian diet as a given and worked from there to make it a delicious one.

Now, for me, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that if there is one group of cooks that starts out with vegetarian ingredients and approches those ingredients with the primary goal of making those ingredients taste good, the end result is going to taste better than most of the stuff made by another group who starts out with an even broader palette which is then deliberately narrowed down, and where the primary consideration is the (supposed) health benefits or ethical considerations or political implications associated with what they are eating.

[klc14]

As for the claim to being healthier - feh.  Unless these vegans are getting regular shots in a doctors office, they're deficient and/or anemic.

Maybe yes, maybe no, on this point ...

I need a medical doctor or a nutritionist or a vegetarian to weigh in here.........I believe I remember correctly that a totally vegetarian diet leaves one deficient - in something which only a meat-based amino acid provides. It's either Vitamin K or an iron precursor which one needs shots to supply.............can someone help me out here?

You need a B-12 supplement: 2000 mcg (micrograms) once a week, or in fortified foods (twice a day). (the source of this information, since I am not a doctor nor play one on TV: Dr. Michael Greger, veganmd.org, Talks On-Line [sic], section 07 Vitamin B12. (sorry, can't link directly, click on Talks On-Line, then Optimum Vegetarian Nutrition, then 07 Vitamin B12. It IS a vegan site but you may go get a hamburger right after if you need one. )

You are supposed to be able to get everything from plant sources. The idea is, protein is protein, whether it comes from a cow or chickpea or bean or vegetable or potato. The percent of protein is where the rubber hits the road: do you want to eat a lot of chickpeas or a card-deck sized chunk of cow or pig or sheep.

Anemia is not necessarily a problem. If you eat a balance of beans, greens, grains and nuts and Vitamin C rich foods with meals, that is supposed to take care of it. It's possible to get more iron than you need, just as with calcium. Personally, I cook tomato sauce in the iron skillet from time to time, and I'm fine.

Personally I'm not vegan: I wear leather, I eat honey, my car seats are fabric 'cause I'm cheap, but I don't look on meat as my source of protein or iron, and no eggs or dairy. I also eat a very low fat diet. This is for health reasons, not because I am ethically purer than anybody. I do not proselytize for any movement (I am no good at it anyway).

I think the landlord who bans meateaters as social misfits due to their food is indulging in wishful thinking. To exaggerate wildly for a sec, Hitler was a meateater but so I believe was Albert Schweitzer who was one of the great humanitarians of his time.

Okay, back to work.

[tryska]

It's possible to get more iron than you need, just as with calcium.

give blood once a month and that should resolve the overabundance of iron problem.

[mongo_jones]

I think the landlord who bans meateaters as social misfits due to their food is indulging in wishful thinking. To exaggerate wildly for a sec, Hitler was a meateater but so I believe was Albert Schweitzer who was one of the great humanitarians of his time.

Okay, back to work.

i believe m.k gandhi once noted that he'd known pure vegetarians who were capable of far more heinous acts of violence than any non-vegetarian.

[Katherine]

The first law of dietary modification (for Sam)

Any changes made to a person's diet for a purpose other than maximizing deliciousness will result in a net lessening of deliciousness.

[mongo_jones]

Think about it this way:  Vegetarians are given a questionnaire about vegetarianism.  Among the questions is something like this:

Please examine the following list of potential reasons why you are a vegetarian and select the top 5 reasons, ranking them 1-5 according to how important these reasons are to your choice, with 5 being the most important:

• Political reasons
  
• Health concerns
  
• Ethical considerations
  
• I don't know
  
• Religion
  
• Don't like the taste of meat
  
• Love to eat vegetables
  
• Blah
  
• Blah
  
• Blah
  

Okay... now, suppose that they give this questionnaire to some large sample of Western vegetarians and the results show that health considerations is the huge #1 reason, followed by ethical considerations, followed by political reasons, etc. with "love to eat vegetables" way down on the list.  What does this tell us?  It tells us that a gustatory preference for and appreciation of vegetarian cooking is not particularly important to most vegetarians in making this dietary choice.

sam,

fair enough, but this doesn't mean that gustatory considerations may not be important factors once they've made the choice. (consider also that no similar questionnaire can exist for meat-eaters since that's the default in the u.s. ) i imagine if you asked vegetarians if they cared about whether their food tastes good almost all will say yes. there just isn't enough cooking knowledge or restaurant/frozen food choices out there yet for all american vegetarians to always have easy access to amazinly tasty food. thus for some taste can't help but get pushed down the scale, since they're not going to start eating meat just because they have a smaller range of tasty pure veg. options. i mean, a pure vegetarian can't even eat an altoid--if they do want to eat mints they possibly can't get ones as good; but that doesn't mean they may not want them.

we could flip all this on its head and say that many meat eaters don't *really* choose meat--they just have it presented to them from day 1 (as with your example of indian vegetarians).

all it will take is time. things begin as individual choices, cohere into movements, solidify into traditions.

mongo

Edited August 2, 2004 by mongo_jones (log)

[Mabelline]

Where's the stamp-your-foot emoticon when you need it ?

Try this

Or this:

Now you are talkin'!!

[klc14]

Did he then start eating meat to avoid heinousness? (is that a word?)

Edited August 2, 2004 by klc14 (log)

[fifi]

we could flip all this on its head and say that many meat eaters don't *really* choose meat--they just have it presented to them from day 1 (as with your example of indian vegetarians).

Hmmm... I am sure that this has come up on other threads on this subject but I will ask it again anyway.

Where do vegans stand on breast feeding?