Shake Shack

[John]

I hate onions, but shouldn't they be included?

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YES, i stand corrected...thanks john.

i guess there is a reason they call you "the hot dog guy"

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Shake Shack also puts lettuce on their dog; at least they did when I went some years back. This also isn't common on a Chicago Dog. If you want to try an authentic Chicago Style Dog, let me suggest J's Beef on St. Georges Ave. in

Linden, N.J. Served with the 10 ingredients listed, most of them imported from Chicago. They also serve Italian Beef and barbecue.

[Fat Guy]

The Shake Shack "Chicago Dog" consists of a Vienna all-beef dog on a poppy seed bun with lettuce, tomato, sport peppers, green peppers, pickles, onion, neon relish, cucumber, celery salt and mustard.

My understanding is that the most traditional Chicago-style dogs, as originally served at Fluky's, would include all those items except lettuce and green peppers. That said, I'm not sure the inclusion of additional toppings (except maybe ketchup) makes it inauthentic. There are (or were back when I used to go there a lot) places in Chicago that do include lettuce and green peppers.

[alanamoana]

Given that Shake Shack has been in operation for two years now, I'm having difficulty understanding why all of this should be heaped on the establishment at once. Quite a few of the violations listed apparently have been in existence since the place opened. You'd think NY Dept of Health would have asked to had these fixed a long time ago if they were serious enough infractions.

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that's the problem with the system. they try to "protect" the people, but even the supposed iron-clad rules leave room for interpretation. i don't deny the need to have a health department which inspects restaurants, but the some of the rules can be ridiculous.

specifically the one that includes drinking (that's any beverage) along with smoking while working. can you imagine how hot the shack gets in the summer time? what if you're the cook working the grill station...with a line that never slows down? you can't have a cup of water on hand? maybe the cooks should wear a camel back with hands free access, would that satisfy the health department? there's just no way a cook is going to be able to leave the line during business in order to sit down for five minutes to drink some water.

[gingersweetiepie]

that's the problem with the system.  they try to "protect" the people, but even the supposed iron-clad rules leave room for interpretation.  i don't deny the need to have a health department which inspects restaurants, but the some of the rules can be ridiculous.

specifically the one that includes drinking (that's any beverage) along with smoking while working.  can you imagine how hot the shack gets in the summer time?  what if you're the cook working the grill station...with a line that never slows down?  you can't have a cup of water on hand?  maybe the cooks should wear a camel back with hands free access, would that satisfy the health department?  there's just no way a cook is going to be able to leave the line during business in order to sit down for five minutes to drink some water.

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agreed. the rules are ridiculous and the language of the violations is very vague. no, we are not allowed to have open beverages in a kitchen. yes, technically, we must unwrap, re-wrap and re-date every little thing we take from our fridges. and yes, someone like danny meyer will make sure that the next inspection is passed. however, i still stand by the original statement that 140 is a HORRENDOUS score. you simply can not score that high because the inspector is having an off day or because a few things are left uncovered.

all this said, i've eaten far dirtier things - soup from bowls washed in dirty basins on the polluted sidewalks of vietnam comes to mind - and enjoyed them very much. but i'm never going to pay to wait on line all day for an overhyped piece of ground meat. half of the reason shake shack is so popular is because it's that paradox of haute-fast food: the burgers are somehow better because we associate them with ushg. take away the name and you're just paying for sloppy food cooked by sloppy people in a sloppy kitchen. i'll take corner bistro over that any day.

[John]

The Shake Shack "Chicago Dog" consists of a Vienna all-beef dog on a poppy seed bun with lettuce, tomato, sport peppers, green peppers, pickles, onion, neon relish, cucumber, celery salt and mustard.

My understanding is that the most traditional Chicago-style dogs, as originally served at Fluky's, would include all those items except lettuce and green peppers. That said, I'm not sure the inclusion of additional toppings (except maybe ketchup) makes it inauthentic. There are (or were back when I used to go there a lot) places in Chicago that do include lettuce and green peppers.

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Most traditional Chicago style dogs do not include cucumbers either. Whether or not all these toppings are authentic, I still think there's too much crap on a Chicago dog. But that's just me. People seem to love the Chicago dog. J's is doing very well. When it comes to hot dogs, I believe less is more. A quality dog stands on it's own and doesn't need the salad on top of it. When I was at the Shake Shack, (then just Danny Meyers) I had the Chicago dog, and a plain Vienna beef dog with just mustard. I much preferred the dog with mustard only. And while the Vienna hot dog is a quality frank made from bull meat, I find it much milder than a Sabrett, Nathans, or Best.

[alanamoana]

take away the name and you're just paying for sloppy food cooked by sloppy people in a sloppy kitchen.  i'll take corner bistro over that any day.

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but then you have to deal with sloppy service (not that the service at shake shack is any better, you just don't have to suffer through it for as long as table service requires)

besides, i don't live in nyc anymore, and i'm happy to eat at in-n-out when the craving strikes!

[Fat Guy]

Most traditional Chicago style dogs do not include cucumbers either.

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At least according to this Wikipedia entry, a traditional Chicago-style dog is: "a steamed or boiled all-beef, natural-casing hot dog on a poppy seed bun, topped with mustard, onion, sweet pickle relish in fluorescent green, a dill pickle spear, tomato slices or wedges, cucumber slices or wedges, sport peppers and a dash of celery salt — but no ketchup."

[Todd36]

Given that Shake Shack has been in operation for two years now, I'm having difficulty understanding why all of this should be heaped on the establishment at once. Quite a few of the violations listed apparently have been in existence since the place opened. You'd think NY Dept of Health would have asked to had these fixed a long time ago if they were serious enough infractions.

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If you take a look at Danny Meyer's other places on the NYC Dept of Health web site, you'll note that they generally come in around average. They are not tightly run ships at least when it comes to the health code. Shake Shack is a high volume place in a tight space---combine that with management that does an OK job with the health code in easier to manage places, and you would seem to have a problem.

[Jason Perlow]

from danny meyer's PR:

August 18, 2006

I am happy to announce that Shake Shack has passed its most recent health inspection today.  The results are expected to be posted on the health department’s website on Wednesday.

Reducing our score from 140 to 14 points in one week is a testimony to the extraordinary work and dedication on the part of our staff.  We are also deeply grateful to our many loyal customers and fans who, confident that we would address the structural issues behind our last inspection, showed up in such strong numbers that we were just as busy as ever this week.

Operating a small, stand-alone establishment in an open park setting is both a privilege and a challenge. Our goal remains to get a perfect score on our next inspection. Our 14 points all relate to the observation of flies and we will do everything possible to send them to another part of the city!

 

Sincerely,

Danny Meyer

[Fat Guy]

Todd, I'm not sure how you define average, but if you look at the inspection numbers for Jean Georges, Le Bernardin, Alain Ducasse and Per Se, they're all around the same as those for Gramercy Tavern, Union Square Cafe and Eleven Madison Park. The thing about fine dining places is that it's hard for them to score as well as places like TGI Friday's (one of their places got a score of 0 on its last inspection) because the better restaurants are cooking everything to order from mostly raw, mostly unprocessed ingredients, they're doing most of the prep on premises instead of dropping frozen stuff into a deep fryer, they offer more raw dishes, there's more hand work involved in plating the food, etc. The sanitation codes are in many respects totally at odds with the culinary traditions of fine-dining kitchens. The best-scoring four-star restaurant in New York is almost never going to score as well as the worst-scoring McDonald's, because the codes inherently favor the McDonald's style of cooking (if you can call it that).

I should add that I've spent a total of months in the kitchens of many of the top New York restaurants, including more than a week each at Gramercy Tavern, Lespinasse and Alain Ducasse at the Essex House. These places are really damn clean, not to mention conscientious. It's a sad joke that McDonald's, which to the common sense observer doesn't have a single store that's nearly as clean as Gramercy Tavern, can score so high on inspections just by virtue of cooking mostly frozen food to temperatures so high it loses most of its taste.

Anyway . . . new letter from Danny Meyer today:

August 18, 2006

I am happy to announce that Shake Shack has passed its most recent health inspection today.  The results are expected to be posted on the health department’s website on Wednesday.

Reducing our score from 140 to 14 points in one week is a testimony to the extraordinary work and dedication on the part of our staff.  We are also deeply grateful to our many loyal customers and fans who, confident that we would address the structural issues behind our last inspection, showed up in such strong numbers that we were just as busy as ever this week.

Operating a small, stand-alone establishment in an open park setting is both a privilege and a challenge. Our goal remains to get a perfect score on our next inspection. Our 14 points all relate to the observation of flies and we will do everything possible to send them to another part of the city!

Sincerely,

Danny Meyer

[rich]

First of all, a little vermin in your food is good for you - it helps build strong bodies three ways...

Secondly, pay health inspectors what they want and you get to pick your own score.

To quote someone who wrote most of his work a few years back "... much ado about nothing..."

[Todd36]

Todd, I'm not sure how you define average, but if you look at the inspection numbers for Jean Georges, Le Bernardin, Alain Ducasse and Per Se, they're all around the same as those for Gramercy Tavern, Union Square Cafe and Eleven Madison Park. The thing about fine dining places is that it's hard for them to score as well as places like TGI Friday's (one of their places got a score of 0 on its last inspection) because the better restaurants are cooking everything to order from mostly raw, mostly unprocessed ingredients, they're doing most of the prep on premises instead of dropping frozen stuff into a deep fryer, they offer more raw dishes, there's more hand work involved in plating the food, etc. The sanitation codes are in many respects totally at odds with the culinary traditions of fine-dining kitchens. The best-scoring four-star restaurant in New York is almost never going to score as well as the worst-scoring McDonald's, because the codes inherently favor the McDonald's style of cooking (if you can call it that).

I should add that I've spent a total of months in the kitchens of many of the top New York restaurants, including more than a week each at Gramercy Tavern, Lespinasse and Alain Ducasse at the Essex House. These places are really damn clean, not to mention conscientious. It's a sad joke that McDonald's, which to the common sense observer doesn't have a single store that's nearly as clean as Gramercy Tavern, can score so high on inspections just by virtue of cooking mostly frozen food to temperatures so high it loses most of its taste.

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I didn't define average, the NYC deptment of health does, its 12 points, according to their web site

Craftsteak is 12

Craftbar is 15

Craft is 21

GramercyTavern 19

Eleven Madison Park 18

Tabla 7

Union Square Cafe 12

Jean Georges 16

Jo Jo 5

Mercer Kitchen 21

Gotham Bar and Grill 8

Daniel 12

Danube 25

Bouley 6

Per Se 14

Chanterelle 13

Blue Hill 15

The very large corporate cafertera where I work gets 4, and it cooks plenty from scratch---it's a bank.....

If Bouley gets a 6 (gotta wonder about danube), I don't buy the rel cooking can't do well argument. Also, Shake Shack and at least one of Meyer's other places got points for plumbing that didn't meet code---that's a giveaway in my opinion for weak management.....

[Fat Guy]

Neither Craft, Craftseak nor Craftbar has anything to do with the Union Square Hospitality Group. The Union Square Hospitality Group manages Gramercy Tavern, Union Square Cafe, Eleven Madison Park, Tabla, Blue Smoke, the restaurants at the MOMA and Hudson Yards catering (and of course Shake Shack).

Bouley got a 6 on one inspection, which demonstrates exactly nothing for two reasons: First, because while Gramercy Tavern is getting 19 points for minutiae like "Sanitized equipment or utensil, including in-use food dispensing utensil, improperly used or stored," Bouley is getting 6 points even though it has "Evidence of mice or live mice present in facility's food and/or non-food areas." Second, because Bouley's previous inspection scores, in April and May of this year, were 31 and 31 -- it's no surprise to see improvements during a pending-reinspection crackdown, when everybody is under standing orders to hide the knives and otherwise do backflips when the inspector arrives for the third time in three months.

The "real cooking can't do well argument" isn't really an argument -- it's common knowledge in the business. Fine dining restaurants, where the cooks never wear gloves, they're serving all sorts of raw fish, etc., are always playing a game of hide-and-seek with the inspectors. Sometimes they get caught; sometimes they don't. Also common knowledge in the business is that Union Square Hospitality Group wrote the book on excellent restaurant management.

[Fat Guy]

Secondly, pay health inspectors what they want and you get to pick your own score.

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There definitely was a time when this was the case, however many arrests and scandals later it doesn't seem to be.

[gingersweetiepie]

Secondly, pay health inspectors what they want and you get to pick your own score.

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There definitely was a time when this was the case, however many arrests and scandals later it doesn't seem to be.

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Mr. Shaw, with all due respect to your knowlegde of the industry, it'd be naive to say that corruption in minimal. In fact, corruption is what makes this industry work, from not reporting tip money to hiring illegals to yes, paying off the health inspectors. What I wonder is why people are so afraid to accept this and instead justify everything with ridiculous explanations.

And just to bring this back to topic... I still don't care much to wait on line at SS next to the cracked out vagrants who hang around Mad Sq Park. Maybe the city should spend less time cracking down on restaurants and do something about the guys in the park who take craps in public.

[BryanZ]

Anyway...

I stopped by Shake Shack right before a meal at EMP to pick up a kiddie-sized custard. The flavor of the day was fig; it was pretty awesome, if a little light on the fig. Again, this reaffirms my belief that the little cup of custard is one of the best $1.25 deals in the city.

[rich]

Secondly, pay health inspectors what they want and you get to pick your own score.

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There definitely was a time when this was the case, however many arrests and scandals later it doesn't seem to be.

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Steve, the only thing that's changed - it's more subtle these days.

[Fat Guy]

Mr. Shaw, with all due respect to your knowlegde of the industry, it'd be naive to say that corruption in minimal.  In fact, corruption is what makes this industry work, from not reporting tip money to hiring illegals to yes, paying off the health inspectors.  What I wonder is why people are so afraid to accept this and instead justify everything with ridiculous explanations.

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I'm not sure there's any industry -- even the clergy -- in which corruption is minimal. I do think it's simply a fact, however, that corruption in the restaurant business has been dramatically reduced in the past 20 years, bringing it much more in line with other industries. Tip reporting is way up. Corrupt health inspectors have been arrested in a series of high profile sting operations. The illegals problem continues, but employers are definitely increasing their scrutiny of new hires.

The problem with health inspections is no longer widespread bribery. It's widespread stupidity and bureaucracy. Poor health inspection scores make for great headlines, especially now that they're available online for all to see, but they're based on ill-conceived regulations that are largely divorced from reality. They're also so vague and broad that on any given day it's possible to give any restaurant a very high score, or to do a cursory inspection that results in a low score. A whole secondary industry of consultants has sprung up. It's a game restaurants have to play, but nobody takes the process seriously because it's not a serious process. You need only look at the Shake Shack's actual list of violations, as opposed to the eye-catching total score, to see how meaningless the process is. In the entire report, there's nothing that should cause a rational person to worry about cleanliness. Meanwhile, you can have rodents in your restaurant and only get 6 points.

[Todd36]

Shake Shack still doesn't strike me as a carefully run shop---I've seen the food dragged one too many times from a rental truck parked on Madison Avenue, remember, I work very close. With respet to Craft and USHG, Tom Colicchio is in both and I have difficulity believing they are run as two entirely seperate organizations.

[Todd36]

Anyway...

I stopped by Shake Shack right before a meal at EMP to pick up a kiddie-sized custard.  The flavor of the day was fig; it was pretty awesome, if a little light on the fig.  Again, this reaffirms my belief that the little cup of custard is one of the best $1.25 deals in the city.

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I don't know what they use for flavoring, but on Friday they were dragging ordinary commerical pre-pack Vanilla custard mix to the shake---forgot the brand. The hot dogs appear to be Old Vienna, which makes sense given the Chicago theme.

[gingersweetiepie]

Shake Shack still doesn't strike me as a carefully run shop---I've seen the food dragged one too many times from a rental truck parked on Madison Avenue, remember, I work very close.  With respet to Craft and USHG, Tom Colicchio is in both and I have difficulity believing they are run as two entirely seperate organizations.

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very sorry to veer off topic but just my two cents...

when i think of gramercy tavern, i don't think of colicchio as being involved at all. that's like praising/blaming bourdain because you loved/hated your steak at les halles.

[Fat Guy]

Tom Colicchio is in both and I have difficulity believing they are run as two entirely seperate organizations.

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They are run as two entirely seperate organizations.

[Jason Perlow]

Tom Colicchio is in both and I have difficulity believing they are run as two entirely seperate organizations.

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They are run as two entirely seperate organizations.

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Yup, I can confirm that as well.

[Todd36]

Shake Shack still doesn't strike me as a carefully run shop---I've seen the food dragged one too many times from a rental truck parked on Madison Avenue, remember, I work very close.  With respet to Craft and USHG, Tom Colicchio is in both and I have difficulity believing they are run as two entirely seperate organizations.

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very sorry to veer off topic but just my two cents...

when i think of gramercy tavern, i don't think of colicchio as being involved at all. that's like praising/blaming bourdain because you loved/hated your steak at les halles.

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From GT's website:

"Chef/Owner Tom Colicchio and Executive Chef

John Schaefer cook from the heart with a memorable blend of bold flavors and elegant refinement"

Well, perhaps he never shows up, but they sure as heck credit him on the web site.

[rich]

I have it from reliable sources the rodents have separate organizations as well.