Bagel Thoughts

[Fat Guy]

I'm just not buying into most of this bagel dogma. I don't even see a hint of a consensus or an authoritative source. Where is this church of bagel orthodoxy that sets forth the dogma?

I believe there used to be a guild of bagel bakers, and that the standards set forth by that guild were probably authoritative in an AOC-type sense. But was that guild even operational during the lifetimes of most eGulleters?

I don't wish to insult anybody's bagel preferences, but if for example you're a fan of H&H bagels, or Ess-a-Bagel, or any of these other revisionist mega-bagels, you've already strayed so far off the bagel orthodoxy reservation that you've pretty much given up the right to make other orthodox claims.

I'd prefer to define what makes a good bagel. What is then done with it is far less relevant to me. If the bagel is delicious, most anything you do with it will also be delicious and worthy of embrace -- even adding blueberries. I really don't see how a blueberry bagel is categorically worse than a cinnamon-raisin bagel. Ditto for cranberry bagels. And if people want to make bagel sandwiches, so be it.

[mjr_inthegardens]

Depends what "everything" includes, I guess, although I like my bagels to be relatively uncomplicated, lest the flavor get too confusing.

Salt, Poppy Seed, Sesame Seed, Garlic, Onion??

[mjr_inthegardens]

I'm just not buying into most of this bagel dogma. I don't even see a hint of a consensus or an authoritative source. Where is this church of bagel orthodoxy that sets forth the dogma?

I believe there used to be a guild of bagel bakers, and that the standards set forth by that guild were probably authoritative in an AOC-type sense. But was that guild even operational during the lifetimes of most eGulleters?

I don't wish to insult anybody's bagel preferences, but if for example you're a fan of H&H bagels, or Ess-a-Bagel, or any of these other revisionist mega-bagels, you've already strayed so far off the bagel orthodoxy reservation that you've pretty much given up the right to make other orthodox claims.

I'd prefer to define what makes a good bagel. What is then done with it is far less relevant to me. If the bagel is delicious, most anything you do with it will also be delicious and worthy of embrace -- even adding blueberries. I really don't see how a blueberry bagel is categorically worse than a cinnamon-raisin bagel. Ditto for cranberry bagels. And if people want to make bagel sandwiches, so be it.

hear hear

for my money the bagel hole in Park Slope makes good, older fashioned bagels. A little smaller, nicely dense and great first thing in the AM when they are warm.

[tryska]

I'm just not buying into most of this bagel dogma. I don't even see a hint of a consensus or an authoritative source. Where is this church of bagel orthodoxy that sets forth the dogma?

I believe there used to be a guild of bagel bakers, and that the standards set forth by that guild were probably authoritative in an AOC-type sense. But was that guild even operational during the lifetimes of most eGulleters?

I don't wish to insult anybody's bagel preferences, but if for example you're a fan of H&H bagels, or Ess-a-Bagel, or any of these other revisionist mega-bagels, you've already strayed so far off the bagel orthodoxy reservation that you've pretty much given up the right to make other orthodox claims.

I'd prefer to define what makes a good bagel. What is then done with it is far less relevant to me. If the bagel is delicious, most anything you do with it will also be delicious and worthy of embrace -- even adding blueberries. I really don't see how a blueberry bagel is categorically worse than a cinnamon-raisin bagel. Ditto for cranberry bagels. And if people want to make bagel sandwiches, so be it.

geez, you're like the Anglican of Bageldom. maybe even a Universalist Unitarian....

tell me something....what's the crumb of an orthodox bagel supposed to be like?

i've had cakey and then the moist chewy crumb that i prefer.

[Fat Guy]

I think we need to get Wesza on this thread. Somebody holler for him.

[Juanito]

I've enjoyed this thread, and am longing for the bagels of my youth, 3000 miles east, and forty years in the past.

I googled up this article, which I found interesting.

Do any of you NY e-gulleteers concur with the author as to favorites?

[cakewalk]

Juanito -- the author of that article even hangs out on eGullet sometimes. But he's friends with Fat Guy, so I dunno.

Fat Guy -- screw consensus and authoritative sources. Stop being such a lawyer. We're having fun with our food memories. Now you're gonna bring us to court over it? And ask for proof? If your blueberry bagel tastes delicious, enjoy it. But I wish you'd find another name for it, 'cause it ain't a bagel. So there!

(Aside: I have a friend who used to refer to lasagne as Jewish noodle kugel. Instead of lasagne noodles, use egg noodles; instead of tomato sauce, an egg or two; instead of ricotta, cottage cheese; instead of peppers and onions, throw in a few raisins. And then you bake. Voila: lasagne, just a little different. Extrapolate.)

[tryska]

so according to juanito's article a proper bagel is crispy on the outside, chewy on the inside.

i knew i wasn't crazy.

[Gifted Gourmet]

(Aside: I have a friend who used to refer to lasagne as Jewish noodle kugel. Instead of lasagne noodles, use egg noodles; instead of tomato sauce, an egg or two; instead of ricotta, cottage cheese; instead of peppers and onions, throw in a few raisins. And then you bake. Voila: lasagne, just a little different. Extrapolate.)

This is what I have often thought but never verbalized ... thanks for saying it!

[Bux]

I'm just not buying into most of this bagel dogma. I don't even see a hint of a consensus or an authoritative source. Where is this church of bagel orthodoxy that sets forth the dogma?

I believe there used to be a guild of bagel bakers, and that the standards set forth by that guild were probably authoritative in an AOC-type sense. But was that guild even operational during the lifetimes of most eGulleters?

Why most? This shouldn't be decided by a popularity contest.

[From Ed Levine's article referenced by Juanito.]  Local 338 held its ironclad grip on the bagel market for nearly half a century, until industrial bagel-making machines were introduced to the market in the early 1960's.

May I assert my authority here? By the mid sixties I was looking for croissants whenever I could. Now I have a better understanding of why. It wasn't just the appearance of croissants in NY, it was the decline of the bagel. Curiously, that article seems exactly the same one that appeared in the NY Times, but I see no mention of that.

The bread of NY has changed drastically in my lifetime. Almost gone are the top quality "Jewish" rye breads and pumpernickels, not to mention the corn breads which are in no way to be confused with cornbread. There's no greater sign of that decline than in a Katz's pastrami sandwich that all but dissolves in the steam of the pastrami. On the other hand, all sorts of italian, French, whole grain, olive, etc. breads have popped up in new bakeries. I guess it's a trade off. NY is still a good city for bread, it's just different bread. I've had better bagels ourside NY these days however. The NY bagel of my youth is gone from Manhattan. It may live in Queens. I don't know, but as Fat Guys says, there aren't enough people around to to mourn it properly. There's really no counter argument a forty year old kid can make about that. Sure there are some very fine sandwich rolls passing as bagels these days. I enjoy them for what they are. As soon as they get rid of that vestigial pinhole in the middle, they won't leak mayo from my tunafish sandwich. The evolution will then be complete.

[Bux]

that article seems exactly the same one that appeared in the NY Times

It appeared December 31, 2003, in the Wednesday Dining section and was discussed in a thread back then.