Exploring the Islamic Roots of Curries & Mole

[Richard Kilgore]

The Mexican Kitchen's Islamic Connection

...while (Octavio) Paz was right to point out that mole resembled curry, he was wrong to imagine that Mexican cooks had created mole as imitation curry, or that Indian cooks composed curries in an effort to emulate mole. He would have done better to picture both moles and curries as vestiges of the cuisine of medieval Islam, a cuisine that was enjoyed from southern Spain in the west to northern India in the east.

[Pan]

Thanks, Richard. That was pretty interesting! I would have never thought of looking for an article about Mexican food on Saudi Aramco World. How did you chance to come across this article?

[fiftydollars]

As a mole fanatic I find this extremely interesting.

Edited July 10, 2004 by fiftydollars (log)

[fifi]

Wowser. That is some article. However, I have been under the impression that moles originated long before Columbus. Yes, they changed post-Columbian. But am I wrong on this? Some of my anthropological sources seem to think that they existed long before Christopher.

[caroline]

Hi Fifi,

Glad you find it interesting.

We have precious little information about actual dishes pre-Columbus. Most of it comes from Spanish writers (Sahagún for example) who collected their information a good number of years after the Conquest from sons of the well-to-do. Hence what we have comes through the double filter of Spanish priests and one-generation away Mexican men.

When more residue analysis has been done, we may know more about actual pre-Conquest dishes.

But in the meantime the fact that mole means sauce in Nahuatl is not good evidence for the fact that anything resembling present-day mole was eaten pre-Conquest.

Most of the stories circulating in Mexico about the origin of mole come from the time of the Mexican Revolution in the early twentieth century. There was a powerful "indigenista" movement which argued for the importance of indigenous or mestizo culture to Mexican nationhood (contra Spanish or French influences). We know it best in the murals of Diego Rivera. So there was a big push to see mole as pre-Conquest.

Incidentally the notion that mole poblano is basically Islamic has not met with any quarrels with contemporary food historians, anthropologists etc. in Mexico.

Cheers,

Rachel

[alithea]

Rachel,

I'd also like to congratulate you on your "World of Inauthentic Cuisine" essay. I came across it on a website months ago and refer to it often!

[Pan]

Alithea, please provide a link (barring any copyright violation problems). I'd like to read it, too.

[wesza]

I feel that "Rachel Laudan's", article is not particularly accurate and her information is most not accurate.

The "Curry" as Ango-Saxons and Europeans or Africans have become familiar with evolved to popularity Thur the "Black Ship's" that originated the Spice Trades at a accelerated pace, compared to it's evolution by the overland Spice Routes.

The actual marketing as "Curry" began when the Portuguese Spice Traders learned that by taking all the residue, broken pieces and powders remaining after the Whole Spices were Marketed could become very profitable.

This was done by Stone Grinding all these products, and adding to them the colorful Ground Turmeric, with Chilli's to balance the flavors was Marketed as "Curry" or mixed Far Eastern Spices. It became very popular in the Ango-Saxon Countries as well as Spain and Northern Africa.

Regarding the influence of these types of Spices into Persia this occurred due to it's being on the Spice Routes that started by the Traders who were mostly Jews, who had learned navigation using the Stars. In fact all the Black Ships were navigated by navigators whom were all "Portuguese, many of the Jews" who were able to keep how they navigated from all outsiders, until the Inquisition, when it was brought in Holland. These were the Navigators who were partly responsible to the growth of Spain in the new world.

I feel that the Franciscan and Jesuit's introduced much of the blending, mixing and spice variations into the cultures they had influence with, definitely in Mexico, South America, Africa, India, China, Japan and thru out Asia.

Sometimes I feel that the most positive aspect of religion has been in the evolution of seeds, spices and variations on food into most cultures.

Bread and Tempura into Japan. Many variations such as "Adobo" into the Phillipines. Custard Tarts and many other foods into China. Maybe even "Mole" into Mexico and almost everything spiced into Europe and America. The "Chilli" was the biggest success.

I don't want to make this posting into a article, but most of my information came from Graduate Students who we had researching Portugese, Spanish, Jaspanese Food Origins before opening Restaurants.

Irwin

[Pan]

Irwin, I'm wondering if you might be overemphasizing blends of powdered spices ("curry powder") in your discussion.

I also seriously doubt that the Portuguese were first to bring curry to Malaysian and Indonesia, to give a couple of Asian examples (there were a whole bunch of regions that came under more or less sustained Indian influence in more or less ancient times). Malay curry is traditionally called "gulai" (at least on the East Coast of the Peninsula, though I believe also on the West Coast - I've also seen and heard "kari" used in Malaysia, however) and my so-far-uncorroborated impression is that its prevalence in Malaysia is due to very longstanding Indian influence combined with influences of other cuisines and local ingredients and traditions.

[caroline]

Hello Pan,

I published a revised version of the paper Alithea referred to in the first issue of Gastronomica. I'd be happy to send the scanned version to you as I have to her.

And hello Wesza, Good to chat again. I'm not really sure what you find so inaccurate. I entirely agree that what we think of as curry is later than the Spanish Conquest of Mexico. Indeed I say so toward the end of the paper. And I entirely agree that the spice trade picked up with the Portuguese and Spanish. The point I am making is simply that we can see the remote origins of both mole and what Octavio Paz called curry in the spicy stews that came from a Persian-Islamic tradition and that were found whereever that tradition was carried, whether east to India with the Mughals (or actually further) or west, in a Christianized version, with the Spanish to Mexico and Peru. Does this clarify things?

Best,

Rachel

[fifi]

The anthropologist I spoke with was of the opinion that the native Americans, particularly in what is now southern Mexico, already had a tradition of grinding chiles, chocolate and other herbs and such together. When the Spanish arrived, it was a natural transition to the moles that we know today.

[Adam Balic]

A very interesting article and I enjoyed reading it very much. Charles Perry translated a 13th century Andalusian Arabic collection or recipes, many of these recipes contains ingredients that sort of fit into the general theme ( for a chicken stew: vinegar, one of murri naqî' (fermented barley sauce, similar to soy sauce/miso etc), oil, and pepper, coriander, saffron, cinnamon, thyme, rue, ginger, four cloves of garlic, almonds and walnuts)) and many of the earlier medieval Arabic/persian recipes from the middle east are similar. As much of the high class European society seemed to be based at some point on an muslim/Persian traditions (some of the early european cook books were translations of Arabic writings), I can see the possiblity of a link between the mole and a curry.

I would guess that this style of cooking pre-dates Islam and it would be debatable if the Sub-continental "curries" were entirely derivative of Islamic influences, but the idea that the mole is a result of the fushion of two cuisines is very interesting. All food is the result of continuous fushion process after all.

[caroline]

Fifi, I wouldn't want to deny that the pre-Conquest peoples of Mexico ground chiles. And it seems that they were used with chocolate in drinks at least. We don't know about sauces.

And grinding was a technique used world wide so there was an easy confluence of traditions here. But three comments.

(1) I think the chocolate is a bit of a red herring (to mix metaphors) in the mole discussion. Assuming that the moles are a coherent class (and I'm not sure that's true because there is such a huge gap between say mole de olla and mole poblano), it's not clear that chocolate is a defining ingredient.

(2) Another question that needs to be followed up is the difference between sauces made in the molcajete and those ground on the metate. This may simply reflect how hard the ingredients are and the consistency of the final sauce. Or it may say something about which traditions they come from. Mexican archaeologists are just beginning to do residue analysis on pre-Conquest metates because they really don't know what was ground on them.

(3) Most important. The Spanish were conquerors. Unlike people like me, anxious to taste all kinds of foods when I travel, they had no intention of eating the foods of the conquered. They wanted to become hidalgos and eat the prestige foods of their homeland. Obviously they couldn't quit pull this off. But if nuns in Puebla (as you know the mythic source of mole poblano) were preparing such a dish for visiting dignitaries, it stretches the imagination to think they would have offered up something they thought of as indigenous.

And Adam, thanks for the comments. I agree that this type of dish is pre-Islamic.

And I agree that "curries" have other influences.

Rachel

[Adam Balic]

Irwin, I'm wondering if you might be overemphasizing blends of powdered spices ("curry powder") in your discussion.

I also seriously doubt that the Portuguese were first to bring curry to Malaysian and Indonesia, to give a couple of Asian examples (there were a whole bunch of regions that came under more or less sustained Indian influence in more or less ancient times). Malay curry is traditionally called "gulai" (at least on the East Coast of the Peninsula, though I believe also on the West Coast - I've also seen and heard "kari" used in Malaysia, however) and my so-far-uncorroborated impression is that its prevalence in Malaysia is due to very longstanding Indian influence combined with influences of other cuisines and local ingredients and traditions.

Pan - do you know of any Asian authorities that have looked into the origin/history of "curry"? The oldest English references:

1598 W. PHILLIPS Linschoten 88 (Y.) "Most of their fish is eaten with rice, which they seeth in broth, which they put upon the rice, and is somewhat soure..but it tasteth well, and is called Carriel [curie]."

1681 R. KNOX Hist. Ceylon 12 "They..boyl them [fruits] to make Carrees, to use the Portuguez word, that is somewhat to eat with and relish their Rice."

Indicate that it is associated with the Southern India/Ceylon, present day historians equate it with the Tamil "kari", but I would be interested to know what the non-European thoughts are on this.

Apologies to Rachel for going off topic.

[Pan]

Pan - do you know of any Asian authorities that have looked into the origin/history of "curry"?

I'm no expert on food history, and I don't know about this. I wonder what the derivation of the Malay word "gulai" is, though.

[gingerly]

in k.t.achayas' indian food.a historical companion

one word for black pepper was kari...... meat that was first marinated with ground spices like pepper and mustard seeds,then fried in oil,yielded thallitakari,or kuy.fried meat had three names,one of which was pori-kari.meat that was boiled with flavourants like pepper and tamarind was termed pulingari or tuvai

the references i think are taken from'pre-aryan tamil culture' by p.t. srinivasa iyengar(1930)

possibly?

[caroline]

No worry Adam. I'd love to know more about the history of the word curry. And I'm with Pan in thinking that the Indian influence (both Hindu and Buddhist) in southeast Asia could do with more work. Multiple waves of influence here.

Rachel

[wesza]

I hope this posting will help to clarify my previous posting, that I took from the top of my head without referring to my older notes. My firm and I had had research done about the evolution of the "Curry" as it has become established in the various cultures to its current state.

This was done prior to opening a Restaurant that features the Cuisines of Portugal, Spain, Africa and South America.

We are now involved with a project about the Euro/Asia Spice Routes overland that had existed for over 5000 years where it is recorded that there was a substantial Community of Middle Eastern, Asia Minor and Asian Jews who lived in China who were involved in aspects of the Spice Trade.

These "Caravan's" were well guarded and traveled established routes thru Asia, India, Southern Russia and the Coastal areas of Southern Asia, India and the Far East, eventually ending in Europe in later years.

These traders introduced the ability of using the stars for directions as well as double entry bookkeeping. The were responsible for the growth of Spain and Portugal by using the skill's kept secret from the public providing "Navigator's" for the Ships of these two countries, this continued until the Spanish Inquisition where the Navigators started to provide the services to the "Dutch" Beginning their growth.

One of the major cause of change regarding the distribution and growth of the Spice Trade was the "Black Ship's" that traded over most of the same geography of the Spice Routes and carried more cargo, both ways much faster. There were big influences in this trade by the Jesuits, Franciscans and the Catholic Church.

The Portuguese were the first to market the stone ground mixture of powered spices to the Ango-Saxon Countries, and Northern/Eastern Europe that the called "Curry Powder" this apparently was derived from the "Tamil" word, "Karri", and the English word, "Curies" into the spice mixture that was made from: The residue that remained after the Whole Spices were Removed from the Shipping Containers, with the Addition of Turmeric for Color and what I feel was the most important ingredient that came from South America, "Chili".

I personally feel that the "Chili" that was pretty much a monopoly of the Spanish and Portuguese Traders was more important to the Cuisines that we now attribute to the present Indian, Chinese, African, Asian and most Cuisines.

It took a long time, and it seems to have only been done thru the Catholic Church that the seeds of the Chilli's were allowed to be grown in Africa, India, Europe, And Asia. For many years it was only merchandised in a ground powdered form.

The "Chili" that originated in South America apparently had traveled into Mexico to the best of our knowledge during the time of the Aztec's. I'm curious if it was known to the Mayans.

It's interesting that the most well known marketed Curry Mixtures were started in India during the time of the British, and all contain Chilli's. The most popular Malay, Thai, Chinese and Japanese Curries almost all contain Chilli's and Ginger.

In Mexico I've heard that the availability of many spices and flavorings to the general population concurred thru the influence of the Catholic Church thru the Missions.

I also feel that the variations of spicing as we know it thru Persian, Middle Eastern and the majority of countries crossed by the spice traders should be attributed to these mostly Jewish merchants certainly not the Muslims who in reality are more come lately influences.

I base most of my information from Research done mostly by Graduate Students under direction of a well known Professor Emeritus that we engaged on these projects. It was not done for purposes of writing articles but for verifying information in researching menus and recipes.

My posting is very superficial, as we don't require the details that a historian needs but it is a interesting topic that would make a terrific book, even a series of movies as I feel this is a topic that shows how foods, seeds,seasonings and spices have helped shape the world as we know it and the fortunes of the populations even today.

Just think of Thai, Indian, Mexican, Chinese or almost any Cusine with out "Chilli's" or most of the Spices mixed into "Curry".

Irwin

[Pan]

Very interesting, Irwin.

I do have a response, though: I imagine that before the arrival of chilis from the Americas, black pepper was used in spice mixtures (masala/rempah, etc.) in India, Nusantara et al. There are still some pretty spicy Indonesian dishes that use only black pepper and no chilis.

[FaustianBargain]

My posting is very superficial, as we don't require the details that a historian needs ...

indeed...

do you think the grad students will be able to provide a list of their reference materials?

[caroline]

Thanks for the response Irwin. I don't think anyone would disagree that the British in general and Crosse and Blackwell in particular (as well as Indians such as Veeraswamy with restaurants and cooking classes in London in the early 20th c) were responsible for spreading "curry powder" around the world.

And surely we can also agree with Pan that other substances such as black pepper were used for a piquant taste prior to chiles.

It would be fascinating to have the evidence that the Catholic Church controlled the planting of chile seeds. I'd always had the impression that chile plants spread almost immediately after the Conquest. But the role of missionaries (and not just Christian ones) in moving foods round the world is a wonderfully interesting topic.

Best,

Rachel

[caroline]

Oh and if Theabroma's out there anywhere, she's the person to ask about the history of chiles in the America's. She's translating Janet Long Solis's Capsicumy Cultura: La historia del chilli.

Theabroma?

Rachel

[wesza]

"OOOOOP's", somehow I overlooked in my previous response the other ingredient that has been very important in the Spice and Heat evolution.

"MUSTARD" in all it's variations.

Also though it not often included with the "Chili", "Ginger" "Black and other Peppers", "Mustard's" it has been influential and more Geographical in it's popularity with different cultures and ethnic populations is;

"Horseradish", and "Wasabi".

I'm sure there are other items that may be considered in this category, as there are different ingredients that enhance and bring out the different utilization of the flavors, often particular to the culture.

I'll never forget receiving the same generalization from a elder French and a Chinese Chef regarding what seems to work best in satisfying the American Customer. It may be outdated in 2004, but in reflection it was fairly accurate when told to me during the 1970's.

Both Chef's agreed: "Sweet & Sour" with a Little Bit of Hot, was what worked best!!

At the time it seemed to be the way to go, and in many variations it still works.

"LATHIA", the actual paperwork and notes from the research are not available due to confidentially agreements with the client who receives all the information. I have only my own notes for reference that are included, subject to my discretion.

Irwin

Edited July 11, 2004 by wesza (log)

[theabroma]

Salutations. Theabroma, who can be remarkably clumsy, quite simply fell off the planet, and has just managed to climb back on. So to speak.

Response on chiles forthcoming. Rachel, I loved the mole article, and am delighted and a bit surprised that the DF crowd has not sounded an alarm.

I would love to be a scan recipient of the Gastronomica article.

And where are you on the Sta Rosa mole invention? I agree that the nuns wouldn't likely honor the visiting dignitaries with an indigenous dish ... but I don't see the nuns being much in the cooking department, either (Sor Juana excepted). I've always wondered whether the good sisters put the 'finishing school' touch on a basically native dish ... and the result, refined, more perfumed with spices, etc. was the result?

Regards,

Theabroma

[Adam Balic]

The Portuguese were the first to market the stone ground mixture of powered spices to the Ango-Saxon Countries, and Northern/Eastern Europe that the called "Curry Powder" this apparently was derived from the "Tamil" word, "Karri", and the English word, "Curies" into the spice mixture that was made from: The residue that remained after the Whole Spices were Removed from the Shipping Containers, with the Addition of Turmeric for Color and what I feel was the most important ingredient that came from South America, "Chili".

Irwin - very interesting post, but just to clarify, are you saying that the modern word "Curry" derived in part from the OE "Curie" (= "cooking", derived from OF) or have I mis read you comment.

I am also curious to know what the definition of a curry is? Not the Tamil "Kari/Karri" but "Curry". How do you differentiate a "curry" form another stew or braise? If it is a matter of spices, well there are many stews with spices that would not be considered a "curry".

Also, at the period (late 16th/early 17th century) where "Curry" are first mentioned in English, the food in England would not have been that disimilar in taste profile, if not flavour profile. (Knox's reference even mentions that the Ceylon curries are soured with gooseberries (which is almost certainly incorrect, but these fruit where being used to sour stews back in England)). At this point in history how would you differentiate an English chicken dish, coloured with saffron, flavoured with ginger, cinnamon and pepper, soured with gooseberries/barberries/verjuice from a Southern Indian/Tamil dish coloured with tumeric, flavoured with different spices and soured with tamarind?

I'm not sure that the dishes could be differentiated based on ingredients into "is curry"/"is not a curry". The differentiating factor must incorporate some type of "Geographic"/"Ethnic" factor. The best definition I can see is "Stew/braise with spices from the East".

My take is that a "curry" can be a number of things, In the UK it is either derived from the pre-20th century British Raj type curry powders and pastes or the Anglo-"Indian" food that largely developed post-1950's. Much later on "Curry" became a catch-all for a whole range of Eastern spiced stews/soups/sauces and braises.