All About Pizza

[peterpumkino]

Whew!!!!! Back to basics again.

IT'S ALL JUST A MATTER OF PERSONAL OPINION!

(and add a dash of personal experience in).

[Steve Plotnicki]

No it isn't. There is a reason a bottle of 1966 La Tache can cost $2000 and the best Zinfandel (if there is such a thing as a best Zinfandel) costs less then $100 and most likely costs $40. One is a wine of great quality and the other is not. And I can draw the same example for Bordeaux, Cote Rotie, Hermitage, Barolo etc. Quality is not a matter of opinion.

[Craig Camp]

There is no such thing as a great varietal without great terroir. The syrah grape outside of Cote Rotie is a mere shadow of itself. Same for pinot noir and Burgundy. Zinfandel I submit, is neither a great varietal, nor do they grow it anywhere where there is great terroir. Even Ridge, who arguably makes the best zinfandel, blends it with other varietals in order to make Geyserville, a wine that I rank on the order of, "order if there is nothing else to drink on the wine list" category. Beer is still better with pizza and zinfandel still tastes like mouthwash.

Steve,

What about Hermitage and Cornas? Some pretty serious shadows there.

You don't believe there are any interesting Pinot Noirs grown outside of Burgundy?

Where do I buy this mouthwash you are using?

Have you never tried a good Barbera vivace with pizza?

[Charles Smith]

Peter-

How do you define great?

Good is one thing, great is a lot more.

Who are the zinfandel producers that consistently produce great wines?

Where are the new zinfandel regions where they are planting zins b/c of what a great varietal it is?

Good wines are wines you like and enjoy- Great wines need to have something more and great varietals need to have a number of characteristics.

Cheers,

Charles

[Steve Plotnicki]

Craig - Let's see, I didn't list every region that makes serious wines. If you noticed, I added an etc. at the end of my list. As for Cornas, no I don't think that is serious wine on the level of the other wines I mentioned. Neither do I think Barbera is a serious wine. They can both be very good wines, but they are not serious wines in my book and the market seems to agree with that. And no I don't think anyone outside of Burgundy makes a serious pinot noir either. As for the mouthwash, almost any bottle of zinfandel will do. In fact I have found that if you want to drink zinfandel/mouthwash with food, it goes well with meats and fish grilled over eucalyptus, two vile things where the double negative nearly cancels each other out.

[Craig Camp]

As for Cornas, no I don't think that is serious wine on the level of the other wines I mentioned. Neither do I think Barbera is a serious wine

Clape will be supprised to hear this about Cornas.

That is the point of Barbera vivace with pizza it is not a serious wine and take a chill well. Barbera vivace is a different animal than serious Barbera. I think there will be a long list of great winemakers in Italy that will disagree with you that Barbera cannot make excellent wine. Perhaps this follows the Zinfandel argument. I would agree with many of the comments on this thread that Zinfandel is not a great wine, but does make very good ones - Barbera is in the same league.

There are few better matches with the monster steaks served at American steak houses than Zinfandel. These thick steaks are seriously charred on the outside even when cooked only to rare and the fruity intensity of Zinfandel matches here better than more tannic and complex wines.

[Steve Plotnicki]

I'd be happy to tell that to M. Clape myself.

Actually any oaky wine goes well with those steaks. And Cote Rotie and Chateauneuf go well also because of the pepperiness in the wines. And if you are talking about steak cooked over wood, even Central Coast Pinot Noir goes well and I can't think if anything that is as offensive a wine as CCPN.

I am actually against drinking less then terrific wine and I often recommend to people that they buy one bottle for $100 rather then five bottles for $20. Most $20 wines stink. And most food just doesn't go well with wine and the only reason that people drink it is because France and Italy are wine growing countries so they created a culture for it. And if you live there, I can understand drinking it every day because the cuisine is built around it.

But I have found for my diet, I am better off drinking serious wine with serious meals and finding something else to drink with a burger and pizza. And while that might change when I am visiting Europe, and I might order a bottle of wine with my pizza, I revert back to form when I return back home.

[Craig Camp]

Isn’t it alright to drink good wine with good food? That $100.00 bottle often does not match well with simple food – like pizza? What is the difference between well made, good simple wine and beer in the scheme of the universe?

Your $100 bottle or 5 - $20 bottles theory makes sense only if you are talking about one meal. What if you enjoy wine with your meal every evening but can’t afford $100 a night but you can handle the $20? Should they give up enjoying wine?

Most $20 wines may stink, but quite a few don’t. Most $10 wines suck – but a very few don’t. What’s wrong with enjoying these wines if they make your meal more pleasurable?

Let’s not forget there are more than a few $100 (or more) out there that stink too.

[Tonyfinch]

At its best Australian shiraz is great. Not the same as Cote Rotie but still great.

Why doesn't wine go with pizza? Is it the ubiquitous use of tomato on Pixxa? Or is it that the doughiness calls for a longer drink? After all Pizza is often covered in cheese-which most people agree goes with wine.

[Adam Balic]

Why doesn't wine go with pizza? Is it the ubiquitous use of tomato on Pixxa? Or is it that the doughiness calls for a longer drink? After all Pizza is often covered in cheese-which most people agree goes with wine.

I think that tomatoes and wine are a bit of a non-starter. Must be the the acid I think. I have no problem eating wine with pizza, but beer is more refreshing, even when the pizza has no tomato base (which is what I mostly choose).

Had an excellent pizza in Italy recently tiny little clams placed onto a pizza base which was sauced with nothing but new olive oil and garlic. Clams were alive and closed when the pizza went into the oven, but opened up unde the heat, spilling there juice on the pizza to mingle with the oil and garlic. Drank it with a nice Chianti.

[Steve Plotnicki]

No I was speaking about what works for me. For people who like to drink wine daily, they have to adopt a different strategy and find numerous inexpensive wines that are good. And as I said, if I lived in Europe and had that type of diet, I might think differently about it. But living in the U.S., I find that trying to figure out which wine goes with every meal is a square peg in a round hole because my tuna fish sandwich doesn't lend itself to drinking wine. If you spend time on the various wine boards you see various questions about which wines go with what foods. Many of them are just forcing the issue because the people like to drink wine. One of my favorites was what wines go with kosher style pastrami. Another favorite is what wine goes best with Mexican food. As for wine and pizza, well you could drink it. But it's just a beverage. I see no reason to drink wine if it is just going to be a beverage. Water is usually a better beverage then wine is because it doesn't clash with the food.

I think Australian shiraz generally sucks. But I do have a soft spot in my heart for a good Grange.

Edited January 21, 2003 by Steve Plotnicki (log)

[Craig Camp]

I would agree with this, well said - I also agree with you on Shiraz. You think Zinfandel tastes like mouthwash - I think most Aussie Shiraz tastes like grape jam.

[Adam Balic]

I think Australian shiraz generally sucks. But I do have a soft spot in my heart for a good Grange.

A lot of top end Australia Shiraz seems to be heading in the direction of big juicy fruit, high acid and oak monsters and I don't really like this style at all. But Steve, I am curious because I really don't enjoy Grange for being this high octane style, so I am curious why you have a soft spot for it as it would seem to be the mother load of all these types of wine?

[Steve Plotnicki]

I don't find Grange to be overly weighty or heavy. It's an amazingly balanced wine. Even though there still isn't the same level of complexity that you find in French and Italian wines. And it also depends on the year Grange. For a while, 1981 was drinking really well. Now 1982 is really great. But I aside from the flavor profile, which I agree Grange is the mother of, the modern Shiraz are overoaked and overripe fruit bombs that have enough alcohol in them to be able to use them as aftershave. Grange doesn't have those characteristics in my experience.

[Adam Balic]

Oh, agreed it is a well made wine in general (although some of the 1970's vintages were really dogs), but I just don't like that style. I grew up drinking Penfold's Koonunga Hill at BBQ's and Grange as good as it is, still reminds me of Koonunga Hill.

I prefer to drink wine with some age (when I can), but I just can't see how many of these new wines will last even five years as they seem to be designed to be drank very early. Many of these wines are also designed with the US market in general, so what gives?

[Steve Plotnicki]

What gives is these wines are made for people with middle class tastes. Now that isn't necessarily a bad thing because there are a number of very good wines, some even great, that fall into that category. But they are not made to last because they are not intended to be great wines, "great" defined as wines that stand the test of time and pick up tertiary flavors with bottle age. For example that '97 Sandrone I wrote about in the Aimo e Nadia thread drank just superbly. But is it a great wine? The style it's made in will probably mean that it is a 25 year old wine at best. And while a 25 year old Barolo is a great thing (especially one made as purely as the Sandrone,) it won't be as great as the '97 Conterno Gran Bussia which will probably last 35-40 years and will develop complexities the Sandrone will never be bale to develop.

So how great is great?

[Adam Balic]

I don't know the answer to that Steve, I just don't have the experience to be able to judge. At this point I am looking for interesting wines, rather then great wines (although a combination of the two would be nice ). These new 'middle class wines' don't really interest me I guess.

Interesting that you have said this, I was talking to some friends recently about how the new interest in Amarone has resulted in many of these wines been made in a new style fashion and this is a very sad thing for this particular wine type. Well I think so.

[Tonyfinch]

I've had the Grange '83 twice recently and yes it is a huge wine and I agree that its the Aussie shiraz that the rest aspire to. However its also very complex and multi dimensional. On reflection I might have enjoyed it more with less complicated food than I had with it at The Square.

Getting back to pizza-I feel about pizza as Steve feels about pasta. I don't care what example you serve up, after about two mouthfuls you're all doughed out, every further mouthful tastes the same but colder, that awful cooking mozzarella is stringy and gumming up your teeth, the tomatoes make your wine taste like metal polish and after you've finished the whole glob sinks to the bottom of your stomach and stays there for the rest of the day. Pizza is the worst fast food available and totally lacks any semblance of culinary relevance.

[macrosan]

Essentially, Tony, pizza is just the equivalent of a sandwich. It was never intended to be, and never will be, great food. But are you saying you've never had a pizza without mozzarella or tomato ? If that's the case, you really should try a few of those without before you finally turn your back on what can be a pleasant snack food.

[Tonyfinch]

Haven't you noticed that no matter what the topping they all taste the same anyway?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Being wheat sensitive since 1990, one of the things I miss eating is a good brick or coal oven pizza. Just a plain Pizza Napolitana with anchovys will do. Or the white clam pizza at Pepe's in New Haven. I can live without those fancy quatro staggione or formaggi jobs. Just thin dough, a little burnt on the bottom, good sauce and either anchovies or basil and mozzarella. And that spicy olive oil they give you to pour on the pizza. Yummy. Pizza kills pasta which is a poor excuse for food. Pizza is really bread and good bread rocks.

[Tonyfinch]

Well I was exaggerating slightly. Good pizza can be nice but its not something I choose to eat anymore. I wouldn't ever go out for a pizza like I used to. Pasta neither. Still might venture out for good fish and chips though. Beer's better with that too. As is tea.

[La Niña]

Tony, you have to eat some really good pizza. Maybe you haven't. I can't tolerate lousy pizza - in fact, I can't even tolerate anything less that great pizza. But a truly great pizza is a great thing.

[peterpumkino]

Tony, you have to eat some really good pizza.  Maybe you haven't.  I can't tolerate lousy pizza - in fact, I can't even tolerate anything less that great pizza.  But a truly great pizza is a great thing.

I cartainly agree with that Nina. I have had some really unbelievable pizzas but in Italy.

[peterpumkino]

Why doesn't wine go with pizza? Is it the ubiquitous use of tomato on Pixxa? Or is it that the doughiness calls for a longer drink? After all Pizza is often covered in cheese-which most people agree goes with wine.

I think that tomatoes and wine are a bit of a non-starter. Must be the the acid I think. I have no problem eating wine with pizza, but beer is more refreshing, even when the pizza has no tomato base (which is what I mostly choose).

Actually an Italian friend who lives just outside of Milano on being pressed admitted that it could be a culural reason Italians drink beer and not wine with pizza. To wit, Italians do not generally have the opportunity to drink beer with meals (remember the Italians are very set in their ways) and this is just an excuse to drink beer rather than wine! It's a theory.

Of course if he's right it would show up some of the egulleters as pretentious twats and that would never do.