Jump to content
  • Welcome to the eG Forums, a service of the eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters. The Society is a 501(c)3 not-for-profit organization dedicated to the advancement of the culinary arts. These advertising-free forums are provided free of charge through donations from Society members. Anyone may read the forums, but to post you must create a free account.

Mistakes on the job


mkfradin

Recommended Posts

I started my own business--a bakery--a short time ago. This is my first business, and although I have had experience in the food service industry previously, I really don't have the kind of experience under my belt that a lot of you seem to have. There are some performance issues that have concerned me for a while, but I'm not sure if I'm being a control freak, impatient, not explaining things correctly, or just worrying about something that's completely normal.

Because my bakery doesn't really focus on desserts that require technical expertise (we do homey American desserts like layer cakes, brownies, muffins, cookies--stuff the moms make for bake sales, only better), I didn't think I really needed a salaried pastry chef; that a culinary student or someone with a passion for baking, like me, could easily turn out what I needed. We began training in February, and began baking in earnest when we passed inspection in March. We opened on March 15.

It seems like each week, there are still mistakes, some little and some big. I won't go through all of them, but what I'm feeling is that my pastry chef just doesn't really give a shit a lot of the time. When she tortes the cakes, they're uneven and a bitch to put together again, and there are usually chunks of butter in frostings and cookies b/c she doesn't scrape down the bowl. I try to address my concerns to her, but I'm wondering if these are things I should even be saying. Is it normal for product like this to be acceptable to someone in the business? Am I being naive for expecting someone to have the same passion for perfection as myself? Should I be able to give someone a new formula and expect them to be able to execute it properly without my supervision the first time?

Like I said, I've never been a real employer before, and my HR concerns are so much harder than anything else, including the brutal hours and physical demands. I'm trying to be nice and diplomatic, but unfortunately don't have the greatest management style (I used to work at a law firm, so I picked up some bad habits, I guess). So what my question really boils down to is this: How many times does someone get to overmix the muffins or use the wrong kind of chocolate for the brownies before you have to cut them loose? Any suggestions, comments, or anecdotes would be very muich appreciated. PEople come into my store every day to give me unsolicited advice, but this is the stuff I really need to know. Thanks tons.

Marjorie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hate to say it but it is your neck on the line and your reputation. Staff issues are only problematic if allowed to fester. She needs to go and you have to work even harder until she is replaced, but you learned a valuable lesson and ideas for the future pastry chef.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok ....I don't own a bakery nor am I a professional pasty chef ........but I don't think I need to be to answer your question...shoddy work in ANY profession is not acceptable.

LIke Speidec said, it's YOUR reputation and the success of your business on the line. If she isn't interested in putting out a quality product, then she should be gone. I hate to see anyone lose their job, and if someone is TRYING, I'd be happy to keep working with them and helping them to improve. But it sounds like this woman is just therefor the paycheck --and that kind of help you don't need.

Just my 2 cents worth

--Jan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately you will never find anyone as passionate about your place a syou are. Its a love and passion that flows through your veins. Dont accespt the lack luster performance being exhibited by your inferior product. Put an ad in the paper and get a new PC. Have them trail for a day and access their skills, habits, strong and weak points, etc...

Did you rush into hiring this person for the sheer lack of staff you had at the time?

I just opened the retail side of my business and it seems like its going to go great, but I need help to keep up. My best defense is that I am bringing on part time pastry pros to help out, in the same time I am training them and hopefully when I can afford one of these full time I will have chosen the best candidate based on perfrormance. Remember everything that leaves your store has your reputation at stake. I take my rep seriously and would not leave my sesserts in the hands of someone who doesnt have the "PASSION"

It's funny, I have a culinary student at my shop that is like my right hand, he does everything the way I showed and at 85% accuracy, he's still a student, never the less he has it and I am taking this time (he will be attending CIA in September) to cultivate his talent and drive and make him a better culinary profesional.

Maybe you need to assume the PC role and hire a strong assistant, take the time to train them in what you want and how the end product should look.

I'll help anyway I can, since I just opened we might be able to help each other.

Brian Fishman

spreading "Sweet Karma" 516-794-4478

"Chocolate has no calories....

Chocolate is food for the soul, The soul has no weight, therefore no calories" so said a customer, a lovely southern woman, after consuming chocolate indulgence

SWEET KARMA DESSERTS

www.sweetkarmadesserts.com

550 East Meadow Ave. East meadow, NY 11554

516-794-4478

Brian Fishman

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know whether she is the right person for the job or not, but I do think your expectations are somewhat unrealistic. As a business owner your life will be easier if you learn more about hiring, supervising and training.

I say this as someone who learned these things the hard way at first also, so hopefully it will come off constructively.

Even if you have a good person for the job, you will get better results by trying to take a methodical approach to training, and trying to develop an open, clear line of communication with your employees. Show someone how you want the muffins done, even if you think it should be self explanatory. That way they will have a clear understanding of your expectations. Show them your method at least once, do it with them once and then watch them do it once. At that point, if they are not able to consisitently reproduce your method, you need to try to figure out why, perhaps by directly discussing it with the employee. You may realize that this person isn't cutting it, but at the same time you may realize that you need to make changes--maybe the chocolate isn't labeled clearly, maybe you need to get butter delivered further ahead so that it is not frozen in the center when she makes the buttercream or who knows what. I'm just trying to say, try to use it as alearning experience for yourself so that when you do find the right person you are confident that you are offering a work experience that will keep someone there as long as possible. Training is expensive in many ways, and it is to your advantage to make it a mutually satisfying situation. Without lowering your satandards.

Fred Bramhall

A professor is one who talk's in someone else's sleep

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Training is tough, but someone has to do it, and that person is you.

You have to make sure the person is doing it the exact way you want it done, even if they call you over to check it out before the final process.

There's certain things I've always done myself, just because it's always been easier for me or I don't really trust anyone to do it.

Likewise, at the bakery gig I'm working at part time, when I make the doughs for croissants or brioche , I always call the boss over to check it out, and will continue to do so until I've got to the point that I know I'm in the pocket.

This guy has been doing it for 20+ years, I'm going to defer to him, know what I mean?

I think investing in a pro could be a good idea, or, as Brian suggested, if you can find someone who has "the passion" or is just a gung ho, loves your place as much as you do person, with a lot of the chops or a quick learner, you'll be ok.

As all others have said, it's your rep going out the door every day, make sure it's how you want it to be!

Much luck to you :smile:

2317/5000

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every point mentioned before my post has been excellent. Having walked in your shoes I understand just how hard this is, there is no simple solution. Ideally since your started this business because of your skill as a pc, you'd be your best lead pc. But being the owner has you too busy and makes you leave your most important job unmanned by someone with your drive and passion.

My experiences working at other peoples bakeries has been frustrating at best. They failed to understand the differences between a professional and the help they employeed. They did lack training that even a skilled baker needs to learn their recipes. They lacked consistantly written recipes. They handicapped themselves at every turn.

Finding a good pc takes time and money. A good pc isn't going to work for you at the same price a grad. or housewife/bakery employee will. But they can do the job of several average employees with-out supervision and constant mistakes. So if you look for a pro. consider it a major investment and a necessary evil....don't buy cheap help, they'll cost you more in the long run.

Or you become the head pc and get someone very close to you to run the business side. If you don't share blood or a savings account with them, don't turn over the reins.

When I was an owner, I found it extremely hard to find skilled and motivated employees! News paper ad's brought in the worse candiates. Networking where you can come in contact with pc's that are currently employeed would be where I would begin my search if I choose to hire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like others have said, I think if you show them exactly how you want somethhing done and watch them do it once to make sure they understand it then after that they should be able to do it by themselves unsupervised. I can see accepting the odd mistake especially in the beginning, everyone makes them, but if the work is regularly shoddy then it's time to let them go.

When I started at my current job I was told, "It's okay to make a mistake as long as you only make it once."

Hope this helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think understanding is central here; it's what I try and instil into people who work under me... if you can get them to realise :

1) what consequences their mistakes have in the finished product

2) what consequences a second-rate product has as regards the business, your livelihood, and their job.

and 3) how these mistakes can be avoided

then it's a lot easier.

Some people, especially young ones or those without much of a snse of professional pride, can't really grasp these realities, and if so its time to take stock of how useful these people are going to be as your business (hopefully) grows.

To a first approximation, technique can always be taught, and indeed it's alomst inevitable that even a skilled experienced chef (especially patissier) will need to be shown what's expected of them as regards the "house style"... but character can''t really be taught beyond your own encouragement.

Allan Brown

"If you're a chef on a salary, there's usually a very good reason. Never, ever, work out your hourly rate."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course they are never going to have the passion that you do...you OWN the place, they just work there...while that should not be an excuse for shoddy work, it often times is. And I am not suggesting that you treat them like shit, but I know from experience that when you are more like a BOSS than a human being then their interest in delivering consistent product diminishes. Sad but true...I know a lot of people say "Well, you should work hard no matter what." But that, my dear, is idealism at its worst. But, all that being said...sometimes the gears have grinded down too far to be reworked...ya know? You just have to overhaul the whole system...I say one more chance....let her know exactly what is wrong and why you are concerned, and try not to make it sound like a lecture, and if it happens again: boot....

"Make me some mignardises, &*%$@!" -Mateo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

comments about hiring a Chef are right on target. It'll cost you more per hour/per person, but less in the long run. You can take 3 preps at 7bucks totaling21/hr labor. Now what kind of inferior product, waste, burnt product etc do you need to figure in. A decent pastry chef will replace them and you shouldn't have to worry about wastage, etc.

Culinary school students-for the most part-do not have the real world experience, skills, knowledge and speed required for production. Of course there are exceptions to this but i would look elswhere unless it's an extern type thing-which means you may as well do it yourself ;).

hth, danny

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe it's just me and I don't enough about the BOH side of the food biz,

but my impression is that in your situation, it's more the guy/girl's personality and character that need work than his/her actual pastry skills.

If it's part of their personality/character traits that they don't waste anything / need everything to be perfect within the 99th percentile, then that's not something they learn in culinary school so much, and hopefully they do learn that on the job.

Herb aka "herbacidal"

Tom is not my friend.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe that you need to hire a professional. You really do get what you pay for. If this is your reputation on the line- why on earth would you hire a student or home baker. Professional baking is very different. The difference is that you can not tolerate waste or inferior product. That is where a professional comes in- a person that can look ahead, and know how to use leftover cookies, overbaked cakes and not waste money.

What everyone else said about training, labeling, and recipes is very true. You as a boss must give your employee a clear road map and the "tools" to do the job.

To be honest with you, I get a little irritated with questions like yours (though I will happily answer them). Pastry and baking are skilled arts. They need to be treated with respect. Home baking is not the same thing as professional production baking.

I have 20 years of professional experience; I have students work with me- I would never expect them to do the production, they don't have the finesse or training.

You said that you worked in a law firm- would they let a law student go to court and try a case?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

KarenS,

I have a few concerns after reading your post.

You state and I quote " I have 20 years of professional experience; I have students work with me - I would never expect them to do production, they don't have the finesse or training'

Now, I am going to take it that you mean 20 years of baking experience. Are the students that you are speaking of culinary students or students of another sort? If they are culinary students and you never allow them to do production , how are they to learn? I may be understanding you wrong on this, and if so, I apologize, but you make it seem that you do everything and they are there just to sweep up after you.

I have worked with many culinary students in the past and treat them all alike. I show them how I want something done and once they are 120% sure how to do it, they then get free rein with it. If they mess up, then they are sat down and we figure out what is wrong and do our best to fix the problem, if it indeed can be fixed. If I feel it can't be fixed and it is in my best interest to find someone new, that is the route in which I go. I don't want to or can do everything myself, so I make it my responsibility to show them how to do things right. It is up to them to ask further questions and bring up concerns, although I do keep on eye on them, but don't "babysit" them every second of the day.

As the pastry chef over many venues and employees, it is my responsibilty to be a teacher, not just a doer. I have done that in the past, and believe me, it doesn't sit too well with employers or my pastry staff, to do everything myself when there are people who are there to help me put out a good, consistent product.

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, chefs really want their stuff done their way, texture, taste, and looks wise.

As closely as possible, and that's hard sometimes, even if you know what you're doing.

And it requires a certain amount of skill that not all of us have.

When I was just out of culinary school, and was an apprentice in a kitchen, I went looking around for apprenticeships in solely pastry, as my main paying gig was in a savory kitchen.

I did one at a place in DC called , jeez, I can't remember the name of the place but it was for a chef named Dominique Laborgne(sic), it was called 'Palais du Chocolat', I think.

He's sadly no longer with us, but, I was in way over my head.

One day, the final straw came when he had pulled out a full sheet of Napoleons to be cut, then had me or do something else for an hour, in that DC heat and humidity, and when the time came to cut the napoleons, with one of those roller portioner/cutters, they started sliding all over the place.

He suggested that I not come in the next day, and when I called him to see when I should come back in, he said he didn't need me anymore.

I wasn't very good, that was a fact, but he shouldn't have left those guys out for that long, and that's something I always keep in mind even today.

Owner /chefs can sometimes be so scattered, with stuff that constantly needs to be finished, getting put off to do something else, then that get's put aside for something else, and so on.

A Bad habit that I've seen repeated a bunch in those bakery settings.

On this part time gig I'm doing, the boss pulled quiche dough out in a very hot shoppe too early, delegated some other stuff and when I finally was able to get to it, it was close to being too soft.

So I told him we had to be more careful of pulling stuff too early when it was too hot.

Ditto for butter to be cut for croissaints, I'm always on the lookout for stuff being left out too long as to not be workable.

Make sure the person you hire is capable of what you expect, and likewise, if you're going for that gig, make sure you're not getting in over your head, working beyond your abilities.

2317/5000

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I meant was; I am a teacher, but the production is my responsibility. I must be certain that my student understands, is comfortable, and that they produce good results. I will allow for a learning curve. I will not abandon them or "dump" production on them until they are fully trained and ready to do the job. I will not do the work for them either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you, everyone, for your intelligent and insightful advice and comments. It sounds like many of you grasped the dynamic in our kitchen right away. The situation is a little more complicated than I really want to lay out here (as I'm sure it always is), and I think we need to discuss some things and get them straightened out before I make any final decisions.

One thing I totally spaced on when writing last night (can you tell I have a lot on my mind?) is that this is NOT a home baker or inexperienced student. This is someone who is graduating from culinary school in a matter of weeks with a pastry certificate. (It's the product that's like what a home baker would make, but in our kitchen, it's all production, and we rely on a lot of classic techniques, both European and American, to turn out our "homey" baked goods.) In any event, she's very pleasant to have around most of the time, willing to try new things, reasonably bright, and seems to work hard at certain things. It's not all bad, and when it's good, it's really good. That's why I'm so conflicted.

Karen S.--Believe it or not, I was thrown into a courtroom long before I felt I was ready (within two weeks of starting, in fact) and yes, I made mistakes. I was absolutely mortified by them, always made things right, learned from them and went on. Within a matter of a few months, I was arguing motions comfortably in front of judges and winning against much more experienced attorneys. Swimming with the sharks is the best way to learn, in my opinion. The trick is to learn from your mistakes and not make them again, and build on your knowledge so you don't make related mistakes. If you don't cut the butter into the flour the right way for the crumb coffee cake, shouldn't you take more care cutting the butter into the flour for the scones, or the pie dough?

What it comes down to, though, is me--I assumed that because I hired someone bright and from culinary school, she could look at a formula and turn it out like me, and it just hasn't happened that way. We will work on education in the kitchen for the next few weeks and see how things spin out. I will keep you all posted.

Thanks again for your time, suggestions and comments. I truly appreciate them.

Marjorie

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I meant was; I am a teacher, but the production is my responsibility. I must be certain that my student understands, is comfortable, and that they produce good results. I will allow for a learning curve. I will not abandon them or "dump" production on them until they are fully trained and ready to do the job. I will not do the work for them either.

That is what I thought you meant, and I apologize for misunderstanding you.

To add on to what others have said, and to respond since mkfradin has added a little more insight into who their worker is, I agree that this person seems to need more " guidance" in what they are doing. Just because they are graduating with a pastry degree or diploma doesn't mean they know what they are doing. I was the same way.

I graduated from a well known culinary school in this country not because I could do things hands-on, but because I knew the theoretical aspects of things. I could tell you what happened if you did something, but I couldn't do it in a hands-on situation. It didn't help that there were anywhere from 24 -25 students per class, which doesn't give a lot of " individual time" with the chef instructor when you have a problem or question.

My first job out of school was filling donuts, icing brownies, cupcakes, etc..., and I was fortunate enough to be able to learn from that, move up to a baker's assistant position, then head baker, then assistant pastry chef, and then head pastry chef. Maybe this person is like I was, and will improve with time and the correct guidance.

I wish you all the best and hope everything works out for you mkfradin.

Take care,

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am happy to help; three of my grandparents were attorneys- the same was "expected" of me. I got my degree in poli sci- then worked in a law firm and said "no thanks".

When you got thrown in to the court room (in front of Judges)- you had passed the bar, right? Most cooking school graduates have one year of school, most are not required to have even worked in a restaurant. There are a few exceptions, being CIA with a 6 month externship. The Culinary Academy in SF also has an externship. Many students have never worked in a professional kitchen.

This is not meant to be insulting in any way. (you are a Pastry Chef now-right?)

A law firm is no way to pattern a kitchen after. If you have never worked in one, then maybe you should. Pick a great place, and then go and volunteer. Even for a few hours a week would help you. This is a different world, and you need to know what the business and personal relationships are like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What it comes down to, though, is me--I assumed that because I hired someone bright and from culinary school, she could look at a formula and turn it out like me, and it just hasn't happened that way.

This is really the heart of your problem, and it's good that you are able to step back and see it.

I was a *damn* good culinary student, and as a career-changer I had a full 25 years behind me as a good and adventurous home cook/baker. Even so, I was entirely out of my depth during my first few months in a real workplace. I needed to be shown things...it was that simple. I needed to know what the real-world expectations were.

Take things slowly. Be explicit. Work on one thing at a time. Put them in writing, for when you're not there (or are too busy). Ensure that your employee knows exactly what you expect. Then, if she fails to deliver, she'll know exactly where and how she has let you down.

You may want to turn to your local library for a copy of a book by Zig Ziglar called "Top Performance." It includes a section on this very issue of managing results, which I found very useful as a retail manager. You needn't adopt his methodology wholesale, but it would provide a good framework to build your own system upon.

“Who loves a garden, loves a greenhouse too.” - William Cowper, The Task, Book Three

 

"Not knowing the scope of your own ignorance is part of the human condition...The first rule of the Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re a member of the Dunning-Kruger club.” - psychologist David Dunning

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to say, I don't understand what the law firm mentality is....or how it differs from a kitchen enviroment.....but I hope what I'm writing still makes sense and applies correctly.

In my experiences (having owned a small business and worked at several owned by others) I've found small business enviroments very tricky. I believe employees approach their jobs differently in these, and managers/owners tend to act like their managing a family not a business. Lines get crossed, people take advantage, people loose a professional perspective/approach because their knowledge of each other becomes so intimate.

To run a small business successfully you have to be ruthlessly professional.

You have to approach every aspect of it this way. The minute you act like a small Mom & Pop business your employees become family and you become the parent not the boss. They'll manipulate you like a child does, you'll treat them like they are and at that point you might as well kiss your dreams good bye.

Get your professional hat back on and take control, then keep it on!

Forget where someone came from, forget if their nice, forget if they got good grades. You have a job that needs to be done, find the right person to do it. There's been other areas in your life where you haven't been well seasoned with experience, but you taught yourself how to handle it. Get that part of your personality back in check. You don't need anyone to answer this question for you, you already knew the answers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgive me if I don't really add anything to this thread: I'm not a baker, nor do I own my own business. I do work in retail food and supervise a number of people.

Would you agree that some people are talented but just plain sloppy? In their work and their thinking? Short attention span, flashes of brilliance. I have someone like that who works for me. When she's good, she's very very good. When she's not paying attention, she screws up.

I keep her on because I appreciate her good qualities and I coach her constantly. But I don't think she's ever going to change. And I'm not signing her paycheck!

As a consumer, I will visit a bakery a couple of times. If the quality is consistent, I go back. If it isn't, why bother? Plenty of other bakeries out there. That's what would worry me if it were my business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...