What is soup?

[Hest88]

I was reading another thread and realized that I may have a completely different view of soup than other people. Does everyone think of pho as soup? Or won ton "soup" as soup? I think of these things as basically food (noodles or dumplings or whatever) in some sort of broth. A non-Asian equivalent in my mind would be bouillabaisse, I guess. All are different from soup in my mind. When I think of soup I think of, I dunno, clam chowder or lentil soup or white bean and chard or hot and sour soup or my mom's chicken feet and yucky Chinese herb soup.

What's your definition of soup?

Edited May 21, 2004 by Hest88 (log)

[Pan]

Does everyone think of pho as soup? Or won ton "soup" as soup?

Yes, I think of those two things as soup.

I think of these things as basically food (noodles or dumplings or whatever) in some sort of broth.

Which is why they're called "noodle soups," "wonton soup," etc.

A non-Asian equivalent in my mind would be bouillabaisse, I guess.

Interesting. I might have thought of Tortellini in Brodo as a European equivalent: A kind of dumpling in broth, which is definitely seen as minestra (soup) in Italy. Bouillabaise I'm not so sure about. It's got such a high amount of solids in it that it's at least nearing a gray area. Then again, one could say the same thing about pho. Undoubtedly, one of the main reasons I think of pho as a kind of soup is that I've always heard and seen it so described.

When I think of soup I think of, I dunno, clam chowder or lentil soup or white bean and chard or hot and sour soup or my mom's chicken feet and yucky Chinese herb soup.

What about the Eastern European-style chicken soup my father used to make that had an entire chicken in the pot?

I guess what makes something soup to me is partly the ratio between liquids and solids, partly the consistency, and partly the function. For example, can dal be a soup? At least in various Indian restaurants in New York, it's served as such in some instances. But most of the time, dal is a dish served over rice or bread. But what about split pea soup? Its consistency is similar to dal, but it's definitely a soup.

[Pickles]

Anything savory, containing one or more elements besides broth or stock, and requires eating with a spoon is "soup" to me. Chowder is chowder. Bisque is bisque, etc. I don't call those "soups" but I suppose technically they are.

[NulloModo]

Soup is a big gray area that is true...

I would definately call Pho and Wonton Soup soups. Why? Anything that is served in a bowl with a very runny broth is a soup. I would say that chowders are therefore a subset of soup, as are noodle soups, wonton soups, and most definately Bouillabaise.

A close relative to soups I would say are Stews, with the only big difference being viscocity, a stew you could serve on a plate if you really wanted to, a soup has to be served in a bowl.

[Pan]

Soups don't have to be savory. Hungary is known for its sweet cold fruit soups, which are served as the soup course, not dessert. But there are also dessert soups, such as red bean soup, that are sometimes served at the end of Chinese meals.

[Pickles]

Soups don't have to be savory.

Yeah..I know. I just don't like them, so I didn't mention them.

[Mabelline]

Mexican soups have got names like sopa seca, or dry soup, for stuff you get in a bowl, and eat with a spoon, also.

Had to stir things up a little (sorry, that popped out).

[andiesenji]

a soup has to be served in a bowl.

Or a mug. Some soups are particularly pleasant served in a mug. I make a spicy squash or pumpkin soup which is great for a cold-weather starter when people are standing around talking and visiting, waiting for the main course. For warm weather I like a carrot/sorrel soup which is good hot or cold.

[Yuki]

I wouldn't consider pho as soup....it is more like noodles served in a broth. I think there is a double standard for me when judging what is soup. Although Chowder got lots of other chunky ingredients in it and can be very thick, I still consider it as a soup. But wanton soup to me is not soup, and I don't know how to explain the reasons behind this.

[arjay]

Forest Gump: Soup is as soup does. Don't analyze it, just enjoy it.

[arjay]

edited to delete.

Edited May 21, 2004 by arjay (log)

[Hest88]

Interesting replies everyone.

I wonder if it's a difference in cultures? When I think "won ton soup" or "won ton noodle soup" it immediately gets translated in my head to the Chinese---which doesn't have the word soup in it. I just did a quick poll of my friends and, to a one, all my Asian friends and colleagues didn't think of won ton or pho as soup--except for the guy who then started to muse semantically and then ended up unsure--while the non-Asians mostly thought of them as soup.

[Pan]

Sounds like it just might have more to do with translations than cultures.

[afoodnut]

Interesting replies everyone.

I wonder if it's a difference in cultures? When I think "won ton soup" or "won ton noodle soup" it immediately gets translated in my head to the Chinese---which doesn't have the word soup in it.

It's not clear to me what you're saying here, so please bear with me for the question; I hope what I say makes sense.

Does Chinese have the word soup in the language? If it does, what are some examples of Chinese "soup" ?

Or is it just a matter of translating the words differently? In other words, if what we call in English "wonton soup" in Chinese is called something else, does it make it any less a soup? Or is it that the emphasis is on the wontons, with the broth (soup?) being just an accompaniment, not an important part of the dish?

[Pan]

Does Chinese have the word soup in the language? If it does, what are some examples of Chinese "soup" ?

I don't know much Chinese, but I learned "tang" as a word for soup in Mandarin. As for examples, look back at the post that started this thread:

hot and sour soup or my mom's chicken feet and yucky Chinese herb soup

Basically, I would think that most liquidy foods without noodles, dumplings, and such-like would be called "tang," e.g. Winter Melon Soup, Egg Drop Soup, Red Bean Soup.

[Hest88]

Does Chinese have the word soup in the language? If it does, what are some examples of Chinese "soup" ?

The Chinese have a word for soup. And lots of different kinds of things that are called soup. House soup, sweet dessert soups (as someone said), chicken soup, hot and sour soup, medicinal soups, vegetable soups, seaweed soup, shark's fin soup, fish maw soup, etc., etc.

As I'm typing this I'm on the phone with my mom and I've officially confused her. (Granted, I do that a lot but...) I asked her if won ton mein was soup and she said, "That's noodles. Not soup. Why would you call noodles soup? Soup is soup, like house soup!"

I'm thinking the difference is that ingredients in what's called a soup are meant to be eaten as a whole, with all the ingredients melding into one experience. With these Asian dishes we're talking about the broth is, though an integral part of the dish, NOT the main ingredient but designed to enhance the main ingredients and thus is also often left in the bowl.

(I have this horrible feeling I'm going to get lots of replies saying that they *do* drink the broth AND they consider the broth to be a main ingredient...)

[afoodnut]

Does Chinese have the word soup in the language? If it does, what are some examples of Chinese "soup" ?

I don't know much Chinese, but I learned "tang" as a word for soup in Mandarin. As for examples, look back at the post that started this thread:

hot and sour soup or my mom's chicken feet and yucky Chinese herb soup

Basically, I would think that most liquidy foods without noodles, dumplings, and such-like would be called "tang," e.g. Winter Melon Soup, Egg Drop Soup, Red Bean Soup.

It was the chicken feet in the soup in the initial post that threw me off; I was ready to think that the definition of soup had to do with the inclusion of "stuff," but maybe it has to do with the "stuff" being noodles or dumplings. That is, if the dish, (I won't call it soup) includes noodles or dumplings it's not "soup," rather, something else. What is that something else?

(My grandmother's chicken soup [Jewish style] also had the feet, so that clearly fit my definition of "soup")

[afoodnut]

Cross posting, of course:biggrin:

Is the difference, then, between "soup" and "noodles or dumplings?" That is, if it includes noodles or dumplings, it's not soup?

Edit to add: If so, it's probably not so complicated, not such a big deal. As the initial post said:

I think of these things as basically food (noodles or dumplings or whatever) in some sort of broth

Are there any examples of "soup" or "not soup" that are not about noodles or dumplings?

Edited May 21, 2004 by afoodnut (log)

[herbacidal]

Okay, let's further muddy the waters.

Cantonese, when referring to wonton soup, usually just call it wonton.

For instance, if I wanted wonton soup, I would ask for a bowl of wontons.

If I wanted wonton noodle soup, I would ask for wonton noodle.

In both cases, the broth is understood to be part of it.

If I wanted a dumpling noodle soup, I would ask for dumpling noodle.

Now to the best of my knowledge, in most situations, the focus is to be on the noodles, wontons, and other ingredients.

The broth is most often an afterthought, in my experience a simple chicken broth.

I don't know about other parts of China, because it occurs to me that I've

never eaten noodle soups outside of Cantonese areas.

I'm thinking the difference is that ingredients in what's called a soup are meant to be eaten as a whole, with all the ingredients melding into one experience. With these Asian dishes we're talking about the broth is, though an integral part of the dish, NOT the main ingredient but designed to enhance the main ingredients and thus is also often left in the bowl.

(I have this horrible feeling I'm going to get lots of replies saying that they *do* drink the broth AND they consider the broth to be a main ingredient...)

Okay, here's one of those replies.

For a lot of people in my family, the broth would be the main ingredient.

Many people would just drink the broth and leave the other ingredients

(in Cantonese, referred to as jaa).

I'm actually thinking of ching bo leung in particular.

But at the same time , some people, including me, always eat the ingredients.

[afoodnut]

For clarification, or perhaps to muddy the waters more...

Where do what I know as pot stickers, or kuo teh, or possibly guo tie, or fried dumplings, or steamed dumplings fit into this? Would they be similar to wonton or noodles (assumed to come with a broth), just without the broth? How do you differentiate between noodles or dumplings that are served in/with a broth, and those served without broth or liquid?

And what about such dishes called "soup dumplings" on some Shanghai style US Chinese restaurant menus? And dim sum dishes of dumplings or noodles, where do they fit in?

Edited May 22, 2004 by afoodnut (log)

[Yuki]

For clarification, or perhaps to muddy the waters more...

Where do what I know as pot stickers, or kuo teh, or possibly guo tie, or fried dumplings, or steamed dumplings fit into this? Would they be similar to wonton or noodles (assumed to come with a broth), just without the broth? How do you differentiate between noodles or dumplings that are served in/with a broth, and those served without broth or liquid?

And what about such dishes called "soup dumplings" on some Shanghai style US Chinese restaurant menus? And dim sum dishes of dumplings or noodles, where do they fit in?

Pot Stickers and Steamed dumplings are just what they are.... what do you mean by how would they fit in? They are ingredients that are wrapped with a dough and then cooked in different methods.

I think in order to understand why we call wanton noodle instead of wonton noodle soup is that because it is just "common" sense. We somehow all know that wonton noodles always come in a broth, if it does not then the menu will specify. There is a type of noodles tha are called lo mein(noodles without broth, and mixed with seasonings), if it is served with wonton then the dish would be called wanton lo mein.

For dumplings, it depends on what kind the restaurant makes. If they call the dumpling "wo tip"(pot stickers), then I would assume it to be crispy and without a broth. If it is called "jiaozi" at a Northern Chinese restaurant (don't know how to translate it.... just call it dumplings) then it should be boiled(but they might not serve it in a broth) or steamed. If I am getting "jiaozi" at a Cantonese restaurant, then they are most likely steamed. But there are always exceptions, it just depends on what kind of dumplings you are ordering and restaurants sometimes cook their food totally different from what you might expect. Some dumplings restaurants are willing to cook their dumplings any method you like(steamed, boiled, deep fried, pan fried). There are so many different ways to serve dumplings.

I think soup dumplings refers to a dish where the dough is filled with such juicy meat fillings that it is almost like a soup. It is a really famous Shanghai dish and the concept is similar to the steamed dumplings. Let's just say I do not call dumplings or noodles at dim sum places as soup....... they are just dumplings and noodles cooked in different method. I hope that I confuesd you even further.

[Pan]

In big eating halls in Manhattan, they bring "Shrimp Dumpling Soup" around. What would that be called in Cantonese, considering that siu mai are usually not served in broth, right?

[herbacidal]

In big eating halls in Manhattan, they bring "Shrimp Dumpling Soup" around. What would that be called in Cantonese, considering that siu mai are usually not served in broth, right?

Shrimp dumpling noodle soups are dumpling noodle soups.

Shrimp dumplings are dumpling soups.

In my experience, pork dumplings are served in broth.

[Pan]

I've gotten a lot of dumplings right out of the steamer, accompanied by dipping sauces, and that includes pork dumplings.

[jackal10]

Dunno about definitions but there are 100+ approved short-form recipes on the egCI Thick Soup thread

Edited May 22, 2004 by jackal10 (log)