THE BEST: Restaurant Dollar-for-Dollar

[rich]

With all the discussion about rating systems for restaurants and what constitutes a 4-star, 3-star, etc., it came into mind what about a totally different scale?

I'm going to make an attempt to rank Metro NYC restaurants on a dollar-for-dollar basis. In another words what do you get for your hard-earned money? Let's do this on a food and beverage basis. While I agree that service, decor and ambiance have their place, you can't eat or drink those.

Here goes:

1. Henry's End, Brooklyn, NY. For thirty years the most consistent restaurant in the Metro NYC. Excellent diverse menu - outstanding wine and beer list at very fair prices.

2. Parkside - Queens, NY

3. Per Se

4. Blue Hill

5. Mesa Grill

Honorable mention (in no particular order): Napa Valley Grill, Garden State Mall, NJ; Chanterelle; Union Square Cafe; Grammercy Tavern; Smith & Wollensky; The Tasting Room; Aquavit and One If By Land, Two If by Sea.

It would be interesting to see everyone's choices on this basis.

Edited May 21, 2004 by rich (log)

[slkinsey]

Landmarc

[Amuse Bouche]

The Tavern Room at Gramercy Tavern is IMO one of the best values in NYC. As is Babbo.

[sabg]

jean-george prixe fix lunch

[jogoode]

Ba Xuyen, Sunset Park. Excellent banh mi. Under $3.

Melampo, on Sullivan.

Celeste, UWS.

Sushi Yasuda, per piece at the bar.

Dumpling House, Eldridge St.

[picaman]

Peter Luger

El Malecon

Jamie

[juuceman]

melampo

sullivan street bakery

il mulino

[Bux]

I'd have to think long and hard about it, but I generally feel the best bargains are at the high and low ends. The tavern room at Gramercy Tavern has always been a standout value in terms of food and certainly no less a value when you take the service into consideration.

[slkinsey]

At the higher end, Oceana's prix fixe lunch.

[oakapple]

Somebody mentioned lunch at Jean-Georges. Indeed, lunches are probably the best unsung bargains in high-end eating. Most haute cuisine restaurants that serve lunch have a fairly low-cost prix fixe menu, where you pay a fraction of the price you'd pay at dinner time.

Rich suggested we ignore service, decor and ambiance, but he went on to suggest a number of very pricey places where, beyond a doubt, these qualities are part of the bargain. For instance, "One if By Land, Two if By Sea" is a NYT 1-star (which I believe is the just rating), at 3-star prices.

Probably your best bet is to find the little-known places where they don't have a huge investment in décor to recoup. Eric Asimov used to review those places, but he has been drifting lately towards higher-profile restaurants. Among places with a citywide reputation, Landmarc may be one of the best bargains.

A friend of mine has a system where he looks for places where the price on Zagat is less than double the food rating. For instance, for a Zagat food rating of 22, the price would have to be below $44. This works surprisingly well as a proxy for "good-at-the-price" restaurants. For instance, a Tapas restaurant called Afrazan in TriBeCa (77 Warren St) has a Zagat food rating of 24, and a price of $42/person. William Grimes gave Afrazan a very favorable NYT review.

[Pan]

I wouldn't be able to comment on bargains at the high end, but at the low end, I'd mention Spicy & Tasty and Tanoreen right off the bat.

[rich]

Rich suggested we ignore service, decor and ambiance, but he went on to suggest a number of very pricey places where, beyond a doubt, these qualities are part of the bargain. For instance, "One if By Land, Two if By Sea" is a NYT 1-star (which I believe is the just rating), at 3-star prices.

Actually the reason OIBLTIBS made my list had nothing to do with decor or ambiance (though both are quite prevalent at the restaurant). It was for two things: 1. I believe it serves the finest Beef Wellington (one on my favorite dishes if prepared properly) I've ever had and at a very reasonable price. 2. Their $75 tasting menu could be the best value in the Metro area today.

I don't know when the NYTimes reviewed it last, but it has improved recently. On the Times scale, it probably deserves a second star.

[Fat Guy]

Prix-fixe lunches that I consider superb values:

- Bouley, $35, and they do it on weekends

- Jean Georges, I forget the exact price, but the best value is if you upgrade to the extra course. Also JoJo and Vong have well priced prix-fixe lunches at around $20

- $20.04 at Aureole, every day after 2pm, available with wines by the glass for $35.04

- It's possible to get lunch at Sushi Yasuda or at Nobu for under $25, and it's good

- Tabla and Eleven Madison Park both have lunches for $25

- Gotham Bar & Grill $25

- Union Pacific $20.04 every day

[Pan]

That prix fixe at Bouley is a good value only if they do a good job on your meal. Same with the others, of course, but I don't have any reason to red-flag them.

[Suzanne F]

Inexpensive, excellent food for the small price:

Noodle Pudding (down the street from Henry's End)

Great NY Noodletown (ignoring decor and ambience; but we always have good service)

Moderate:

Azafran (we have always had terrific food AND WINE at reasonable prices)

Expensive, and worth every penny:

Jean Georges (based on 1 meal there)

Chanterelle (based on many, but never enough)

edited to add and explain

Edited May 22, 2004 by Suzanne F (log)

[tommy]

the post-8 pm wine dinner at Cite, and, China 46 in Ridgefield, NJ. but only if those restaurants produce a good meal. and the former only if you're a big boozer. like me.

Edited May 22, 2004 by tommy (log)

[enrevanche]

At the budget end of the spectrum, Pakistan Tea House on Church Street (between Duane and Reade.) Fresh, simple Indo-Pak home cooking, including homemade flatbreads made before your eyes in a roaring oven. Dirt cheap--it may be possible to spend more than $10 on a meal here, but I'm a big eater and I've never managed it. Thousands of cab drivers can't be wrong!

They're open very late seven days a week ('til 4am). In fact, if I can't shake off this wretched bout of insomnia, I may hop in a cab and head down there in a little while.

[SethG]

Rich, could you explain your inclusion of Per Se? I haven't eaten there, but if you include restaurants where the food is so fabulous you'd pay any price, I'm not sure your method has any meaning.

I understand the relative bargain lunches at fine restaurants that people are listing, and places like the Tavern at Gramercy Tavern that are always a good deal. I just don't follow the inclusion of Per Se without more information.

I've always thought that Nobu was an exceptional deal, whether at lunch or at dinner. Part of it is that beer and sake don't set you back as much as wine, but I've also found that you walk out of there after eating world-class food for far less than you'd pay for such food at a French restaurant of similar quality.

Edit: I see, having taken a look at the Per Se thread, that there is a "value" discussion going on over there. The gist of the "Per Se is a value" claim, however, seems to be driven by the idea that they could charge an infinite price and still have people lining up to eat there. This may make whatever price it charges justifiable, but I don't think this is a good definition of a "best value" restaurant. A "best value" restaurant, I would posit, is one which is undervalued by the market, i.e., a place where you can get a certain experience at a lower than expected cost.

Edited May 22, 2004 by SethG (log)

[oakapple]

SethG wrote:

I've always thought that Nobu was an exceptional deal, whether at lunch or at dinner. Part of it is that beer and sake don't set you back as much as wine....

[snip]

I see, having taken a look at the Per Se thread, that there is a "value" discussion going on over there. The gist of the "Per Se is a value" claim, however, seems to be driven by the idea that they could charge an infinite price and still have people lining up to eat there. This may make whatever price it charges justifiable, but I don't think this is a good definition of a "best value" restaurant.

Nobu and Per Se are both extremely pricey, with cost placing them above the 98th percentile of New York restaurants. Yet, Seth is happy to include Nobu on his "dollar-for-dollar" list, while doubting that Per Se belongs. Nobu does have a wine list, by the way, and I suspect you can drink beer at Per Se (but who would?).

Fat Guy's comment on the economics of Per Se apply equally to both restaurants. Nobu is one of the toughest reservations in town, and has been for many years. They probably could charge 50% more and still fill the place every night.

Edited May 22, 2004 by oakapple (log)

[SethG]

Nobu and Per Se are both extremely pricey, with cost placing them above the 98th percentile of New York restaurants. Yet, Seth is happy to include Nobu on his "dollar-for-dollar" list, while doubting that Per Se belongs. Nobu does have a wine list, by the way, and I suspect you can drink beer at Per Se (but who would?).

I don't know if you're right about your "98th percentile" figure (and I suspect you're not, at least with regard to Nobu), but even if you're right your use of this statistic to place Nobu and Per Se in the same price category is sophistry. They are not in the same price range.

And of course there's a wine list at Nobu. I don't think the cuisine is as suited to wine as it is to beer or sake, however, and I don't think that opinion is out of the mainstream.

People are clamoring to get into Nobu. Sure. But experience tells me that the demand is nothing like that at Per Se. My wife and I have gone to Nobu next door on many occasions and gotten in in a very short period of time. I have also achieved reservations at the main restaurant without much trouble. My contention is that popularity shouldn't determine whether it is a good value. Nobu is popular; popularity doesn't disqualify the restaurant. But in any event it doesn't have the frenzy about it that Per Se does.

[jogoode]

L'Impero's prix fixe: 4 courses, $52.

[mikeycook]

L'Impero's prix fixe: 4 courses, $52.

Agree with L'Impero prix fixe.

Also,

Piccolo Angolo

Nha Trang

Sevilla

[Suzanne F]

I think I just found the best lox-and-bagel brunch value: at Le Zinc. $12 for a decent nouveau-bagel, at least 1/4 pound of excellent smoked salmon, at least 1/2 a smoked trout fillet, two large globs of good cream cheese (1 with fresh dill; one with scallions), and a 1/4 cup pile of pickled onions and capers. AND "the first cocktail is on [them]" -- and apparently the only one, if that's all you have. Although I had a second Bellini at $9, so getting one gratis was definitely worthwhile.

Of course, you have to put up with the sight of a zillion strollers, and lots of toddlers. But it was pretty much only the sight, and not the sound.

[oakapple]

I think I just found the best lox-and-bagel brunch value: at Le Zinc. $12 for a decent nouveau-bagel, at least 1/4 pound of excellent smoked salmon, at least 1/2 a smoked trout fillet, two large globs of good cream cheese (1 with fresh dill; one with scallions), and a 1/4 cup pile of pickled onions and capers.

I just had brunch at at the Gee Whiz Diner, which is not far from Le Zinc, and they were charging $10 for the same dish. Given the vast difference in quality between the two places, $12 at Le Zinc is indeed a great value.

[juuceman]

I think I just found the best lox-and-bagel brunch value: at Le Zinc. $12 for a decent nouveau-bagel, at least 1/4 pound of excellent smoked salmon, at least 1/2 a smoked trout fillet, two large globs of good cream cheese (1 with fresh dill; one with scallions), and a 1/4 cup pile of pickled onions and capers. AND "the first cocktail is on [them]" -- and apparently the only one, if that's all you have. Although I had a second Bellini at $9, so getting one gratis was definitely worthwhile.

Essex, in the old Essex Marketplace, offers a similar deal.. except their $14 brunch includes your first three cocktails.. they house cure their own lox, include great whitefish salad and a Kossar's bialy, along with the other accompaniments you mention..

imagine when it used to be unlimited cocktails with brunch before half the lower east side discovered it..