Gone Organic - Need Help!

[Jonathan Day]

Aha, so you're on an Atkins-esque diet but without the comfort of red meat to fall back on. Low/no carbohydrates, at least low on refined carbs.

I have seen organic ducks at places like Swaddles Green Farm, which delivers in central London. Of course duck meat is sort of "red"....

Is organic fish (whatever that means, I guess caught wild) allowed?

Good idea about the link to Cooking -- why not plant a link there to this thread?

[YKL]

good grief - that is all so madly restrictive! you have my sympathies! having said that - i do remember going on holiday with my friend last year who was also on some sort of detox type diet, which included most of the restrictions here plus some really annoying ones like nothing fermented, with yeast, only one piece of hard fruit a day(?!?). So that cut out even wholemeal bread, nothing with soy sauce or fish sauce - ruling out a lot of oriental choices.

anyway - thought I would try and offer some menu choices - and I recognise I am far less expert than most but wanted to join in anyway? none of them go together but maybe you can pick and choose?

Elizabeth David's piedmontese peppers - filled with tomatoes, garlic and slivers of anchovies. Bastardise it with a crumbling of feta if you must.

Think I saw Sophie Grigson do some sort of pearl barley risotto - or has that been covered? Maybe with a colouful plate of oven roasted mediterranean veg?

On a completely different tangent, main course could be something like chinese steamed sea bass, with ginger, spring onions, soy sauce, and finished with hot oil at the end. simple and delicious. Maybe some garlicky chinese greens to accompany it all.

dessert - apart from fresh fruit - have a vague recollection of some sort of blueberry yoghurt ice cream - made with goats yoghurt. But can't remember if there was much sugar - but suspect you could probably substitute honey?

actually - am not sure this has been useful for you at all - but hope something works out for you!

all the best

Yin

[curlywurlyfi]

I think it's a great idea - both the menu ideas and the big lunch in! I'm in. menu to follow (must do work, must do work)

[PoppySeedBagel]

I used to get an organic box, and as a result, I think that 'proper' organic fruits and vegetables go off more quickly than the sort you buy in supermarkets like Sainsburys, organic or otherwise.

Possibly it's that the varieties chosen by your true organic farmer are chosen more for their flavour than their keeping abilities.

A supplier of a supermarket will have to produce in quantity so is unlikely to be a small, perhaps rather idealistic organic farmer. The best you can do is buy what you can from smaller proper organic shop when you can to encourage them and accept that you won't get the choice available in Sainsburys et al.

[YKL]

actually I have a question in this topic ..... can wholemeal pasta be improved by being home made (organic flour and free range eggs)? wondered if it could be much lighter and nicer?

Or I am being dense and not realising that it's a very labourious way of making cardboard?

[Jonathan Day]

Surely there's something tasty that can be done with tofu. There's plenty of organic tofu around. Grilled? Or sauteed with spring onions? Or done with prawns, or crabmeat? My "health food" shop also seeks smoked tofu that can be good, though anything smoked sounds suspicious against Moby's requirements for pure and ethereal foodstuffs...

[GG Mora]

actually I have a question in this topic ..... can wholemeal pasta be improved by being home made (organic flour and free range eggs)? wondered if it could be much lighter and nicer?

Or I am being dense and not realising that it's a very labourious way of making cardboard?

I've home-made my own wholemeal pasta with, as you suggest, organic flour and free-range eggs. It IS laborious but, if you commonly detest wholemeal pasta (as I do) it's only half bad and not nearly as grotesque as bought stuff. And, as someone else suggested, it takes kindly (or kindlier) to a creamy/cheesey saucing. But it still "decomposes" quickly in the mouth, and I don't think there's any getting around that – not enough gluten, I suspect.

FWIW, a risotto made with barley is really something delicious.

All in all, you have my deepest sympathies. I've been on detox diets three times in recent-ish history. It's not so bad if you get the desired results. Last time I didn't, and I rued 6 weeks of lost indulgences longer than was necessary. Don't think anyone will talk me into a detox diet again any time soon.

[Carlovski]

Aha, so you're on an Atkins-esque diet but without the comfort of red meat to fall back on. Low/no carbohydrates, at least low on refined carbs.

I have seen organic ducks at places like Swaddles Green Farm, which delivers in central London. Of course duck meat is sort of "red"....

Is organic fish (whatever that means, I guess caught wild) allowed?

Good idea about the link to Cooking -- why not plant a link there to this thread?

Organic is a funny thing, if going as defined by the soil association.

As far as I see it, Fish would have to be farmed to be able to be defined organic.

[curlywurlyfi]

The main issue is controlling sugar and energy levels - on a day to day basis, rather than individual meals.

so you need all the 'slow-release' stuff. hmmm. For an easy weeknight supper, you could do what gets called 'Many Treasures' in my house - basically, brown rice pilaff - brown basmati with any or all of the following stirred through:

- leftover cooked chicken/duck/bacon (leftover bacon? yeah right ) or crumbled feta cheese

- caramelized onions

- toasted almonds or pistachios (could fry in butter, since dairy ok)

- roasted cherry tomatoes or peppers or courgettes

- chopped spring onions

- chopped dried apricots (if dried fruit is permitted, it can be quite high in sugar)

- spiced with cinnamon (not that I can spell it)/cumin/ginger/garlic/dried red chilli flakes

- chopped fresh dill/parsley/coriander

serve with tzatziki to be 'sauce', though sometimes when I make this I don't put in the apricots and tomatoes but roast them together with a couple of twigs of thyme and some garlic and stir all together for a lumpy (sorry, 'rustic') apricot + tomato sauce.

other slow release things - what about No Added Sugar Alpen for breakfast (again assuming dried fruit ok)? good* with an orange sliced in and yoghurt stirred through. Or, I've got a recipe for banana bread in which I have already cut down the sugar from 5oz to 2oz with no discernible difference (thanks Mum for trying to give us all diabetes); I bet if you cut it out altogether and just zerbed in another black-spottedly ripe banana instead it would still work, and you really don't notice it's made with (shh) wholemeal flour - I have a brother for whom fibre = death, and he didn't even flicker. PM me if you're interested.

But I'm sure there are loads of websites out there that will give you pointers - for now I like Jonathan's suggestion of an Austerity Lunch very much. god knows it will be in stark contrast to the last time we had lunch with Moby.

Fi

* though not, obviously, when compared to a marmelade + bacon sandwich

[slbunge]

As far as I see it, Fish would have to be farmed to be able to be defined organic.

This is true according to EU guidelines but it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I suppose that the concern is controlling the way the fish are caught and killed and addressing world fish stocks.

That said, seems to me that some line-caught varieties like Pacific albacore or Alaskan salmon meet the intent of the organic designation.

[MobyP]

I used to get an organic box, and as a result, I think that 'proper' organic fruits and vegetables go off more quickly than the sort you buy in supermarkets like Sainsburys, organic or otherwise.

Possibly it's that the varieties chosen by your true organic farmer are chosen more for their flavour than their keeping abilities.

A supplier of a supermarket will have to produce in quantity so is unlikely to be a small, perhaps rather idealistic organic farmer. The best you can do is buy what you can from smaller proper organic shop when you can to encourage them and accept that you won't get the choice available in Sainsburys et al.

I'm pretty sure it does go off faster - which is fine. The problem is when these organic shops keep this stuff on the shelves. People - who know less than we - are going there believing they're getting a top quality product at top prices, when in fact it's only suitable for the compost.

Sainsbury's organic section is not apalling. And at least it's all in one place. Tesco's gerrymanders its organic produce - canned and fresh. But the sections move, so it's not always easy to find.

I'll try the box system for a few weeks. If all they deliver is parsnips and carrots, I'll cancel.

I would like very much to support and engage farmers. It's the Notting Hill market tomorrow which I think I'll pop along to.

BTW - one recent life-saver has been Curly's roast carrots with fennel seeds and chili. And how interesting can roast carrots be? These are brilliant - spicy and sweet and crossing far enough into root vegetable land to be substantive. I've been mixing them with cubed butternut squash, coating with olive oil, and a sprinkle of fennel seeds and a few dried chillis. Wonderful and simple.

[MobyP]

Surely there's something tasty that can be done with tofu. There's plenty of organic tofu around. Grilled? Or sauteed with spring onions? Or done with prawns, or crabmeat? My "health food" shop also seeks smoked tofu that can be good, though anything smoked sounds suspicious against Moby's requirements for pure and ethereal foodstuffs...

I've been holding out as long as possible against using tofu or brown rice.

I've nothing against tofu - except when you have to eat it (as I imagine I do). Then it somewhat loses its gloss.

I've tried some organic salmon which was pretty good - but the idea of eating farmed fish somehow goes against the point of it all. (Soon I'll be standing blind-folded on my roof, mouth open, hoping an organic pigeon flies my way).

 

The main issue is controlling sugar and energy levels - on a day to day basis, rather than individual meals.

so you need all the 'slow-release' stuff. hmmm. For an easy weeknight supper, you could do what gets called 'Many Treasures' in my house - basically, brown rice pilaff - brown basmati with any or all of the following stirred through

I've been using lentils wilth good chicken stock, witth plenty of meze type things - caramelized courgettes/zuchini or aubergine (eggplant) with a yogurt tahini sauce. Braised chicken with roast almonds, rasins, and bay.

And soups...

Curlz - what makes a pilaf a pilaf?

[MobyP]

I've opened a thread in the cooking forum - which is where I guess we should discuss recipes.

Thanks for the ideas so far - please keep them coming.

[Carlovski]

Pock Marked Mother Chen's beancurd is pretty good, but the fairly large amounts of oil required might be going against the principe. And the fact that it is traditionaly topped with minced beef...

I saw a Gary Rhodes recipe for steamed chicken leg Jardiniere (Steamed over spring vegetables), that seems to meet your restrictions, and is seasonal.

[Suzi Edwards]

all this talk coupled with a wander around satanburys organic section (why oh why do they not stock any BRITISH organic produce. i've got my save the world hat on and don't want to eat apples that are FLOWN IN FROM NEW ZEALAND. the assistants in there must hate me, i keep badgering them about it)

anyway, i have just signed up with Farmaround Organic and am very excited as they not only deliver fruit and veg, but juice, water, eggs, bread and a variety of groceries. hurrah hurrah hurrah. my first box is on thursday, i'll let you know how it goes.

[MobyP]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. Everything organic was from Israel or South Africa - I just found it all so depressing when there's so much they could be doing for local coops and farms.

[Duncan]

I used to get an organic box, and as a result, I think that 'proper' organic fruits and vegetables go off more quickly than the sort you buy in supermarkets like Sainsburys, organic or otherwise. 

Possibly it's that the varieties chosen by your true organic farmer  are chosen more for their flavour than their keeping abilities. 

A supplier of a supermarket will have to produce in quantity so is unlikely to be a small, perhaps rather idealistic organic farmer.  The best you can do is buy what you can from smaller proper organic shop when you can to encourage them and accept that you won't get the choice available in Sainsburys et al.

I'm pretty sure it does go off faster - which is fine. The problem is when these organic shops keep this stuff on the shelves. People - who know less than we - are going there believing they're getting a top quality product at top prices, when in fact it's only suitable for the compost.

A recent copy of OFM had an article which pointed out that much of the organic stuff in supermarkets is produced outside the UK. It then claimed that all organic fruit and vegetables imported from abroad are sprayed with anti-fungal agents when imported to the UK.

I have no idea whether this is true, but if so it would explain why supermarket organic food lasts longer than locally grown produce, although it seems to me that it also defeats any point to buying organic from a supermarket in the first place.

[balex]

People buy organic stuff for lots of different reasons: avoiding residues of pesticides and fungicides are only one of them. Flavour, more nutritive value, supporting a diverse ecosystem, supporting the rural economy, are a few of the others.

[MobyP]

Is it the supermarkets, or customs that sprays the imports?

I would be seriously pissed off if I found out it was the supermarkets. Actually, I'd be pretty mad either way.

[John Whiting]

Just into this thread. We're on the Abel and Cole Box scheme and have thus far found it not perfect, but certainly good enough to continue. About 70% of their produce is British. The prices are of course higher than market shopping but not outrageous.

Re barley risotto: I've done it in the classic mode. With pearl barley it can take up to an hour and a half. It doesn't taste like rice risotto, but it's very good. A classic example of what Shaun Hill talked about -- a folk recipe adapted by migrants to fit ingredients that were available. I've taken to partially cooking the barley in a pressure cooker before proceeding in the usual fashion. Of course, it could be boiled, but for a longer time.

When you're dealing with a total rewrite of a traditional recipe, nothing is definite -- you just have to arrive at what pleases you.

[MobyP]

I'll try that John, thank you.

And my first box from Abel and Cole should arrrive on Thursday, so Ill report back.

[chromedome]

I'd just like to throw out a comment about the keeping qualities of organic vs. non-organic produce.

Last year, when I lived in Nova Scotia, I worked for a company which was pioneering the "box delivery" business model in Halifax. We bought our produce locally to the greatest extent possible, then (as our all-too-short season ended) went to Ontario, and British Columbia, and eventually the US and points south.

My observation was that the locally-grown product held up better in my refrigerator than non-organic (and non-local) supermarket items; imagine my surprise at finding a three-week old head of overlooked romaine to be still in usable condition! Unfortunately the "imported" organics did not fare so well, I had to use them more quickly than the supermarket product.

Of course, the notion that buying local produce is better is hardly a news flash...

[redfox]

At my house we have to pay attention to all that stuff about slow-releasing carbohydrates because my husband is diabetic. I hate to tell you this, but potatoes are in fact particularly awful in that regard. (I say this, cruelly, as I eat a little bowl of potato chips/crisps in full sight of my husband and now of you, too.) But according to his doctor, having a little bit of a "bad" carbohydrate in the same sitting with other foods, especially proteins or foods with lots of fiber, makes it hit your bloodstream more slowly, which I suppose makes sense. So I will sometimes make a very thin-crusted pizza with white flour (gasp!), for example, and we will not have too much of it, and accompany it with an enormous hearty salad with all kinds of stuff in it. That seems to work perfectly well.

I think barley in general is delicious. A very nice thing to have is a sort of grain melange -- I make mine in the rice cooker with a combination of brown rice, barley, and wheat berries with broth rather than water, a bit of cardamom, and a knob of butter. Of course really good butter makes it really better.

(Edited because I cnt typpe.)

Edited May 24, 2004 by redfox (log)

[PoppySeedBagel]

I would have thought that home-made wholemeal pasta as you describe it would be better than the bought stuff, if only because the bought stuff is usually not made with eggs - so it will be lighter and richer. It may also be improved if you use fine-ground wholemeal flour. Most wholemeal pasta I have eaten is rather too rustic, because it is made with really roughly-ground flour.

[Duncan]

People buy organic stuff for lots of different reasons: avoiding residues of pesticides and fungicides are only one of them.  Flavour, more nutritive value, supporting a diverse ecosystem, supporting the rural economy, are a few of the others.

Yes, I agree that there are other reasons for buying organic, but most of those are already invalidated buying imported organics from a supermarket:

It is arguable whether organic vegetables have better flavour or more nutritive value than other vegetables. I would think that variety and time from picking to consumption would have far greater influence here than the presence or absence of an organic label (so I'll prefer the local farm shop even if it doesn't claim organic).

Likewise I don't see what relevance the organic status of a product has for how much it supports the rural economy. Surely its more down to whether the supermarket screwed the producer for every penny they could, or gave them a fair price? Again for local produce, the local shop or market should be better, and for imported produce I buy fair trade when I have the option.