100% Restaurant Cancellation Policy

[ronnie_suburban]

Robyn,

When you say you don't have a problem with it, does that also mean that you would patronize a restaurant with this policy? As a business person, I don't have a problem with it either but as a customer I'd never tolerate it unless there were no other options. IMO, this is the kind of policy that could influence a change in plans. Again, I'm not as good a person as dls is.

As for the gratuity issue, I think you make a good point but I'm not sure if it applies here. But, in either case, applying the 18% gratuity by default is bascially the same thing as the restaurant not charging a gratuity and then upping the base price of the meal to subsidize it anyway.

=R=

[robyn]

Robyn,

When you say you don't have a problem with it, does that also mean that you would patronize a restaurant with this policy?  As a business person, I don't have a problem with it either but as a customer I'd never tolerate it unless there were no other options.  IMO, this is the kind of policy that could influence a change in plans.  Again, I'm not as good a person as dls is.

As for the gratuity issue, I think you make a good point but I'm not sure if it applies here.  But, in either case, applying the 18% gratuity by default is bascially the same thing as the restaurant not charging a gratuity and then upping the base price of the meal to subsidize it anyway.

=R=

Yes - I'd go to a restaurant that had the policy if I had to do a forced march to a Mother's Day brunch. I suspect if I dropped dead the day before - my personal representative could get the charges reversed .

I guess I side with retaurants in most of these matters. Although I've never heard anyone here admit to being a no-show - or phoning in a cancellation on short notice - I've heard plenty of people in the restaurant business complain about such practices. It's hard enough running a restaurant on a normal day. On a day like Mother's Day - I don't blame a restaurant for having a "put up" or "shut up" policy.

As for the tipping - you're right that there isn't a difference - theoretically - between adding the tip to the cost of the meal - and charging it separately. I suspect the separate charge has something to do with IRS reporting requirements (if the "tip" is included as part of the meal - it might be part of the restaurant's gross proceeds for purposes of tax reporting). Robyn

[docsconz]

Although I've never heard anyone here admit to being a no-show - or phoning in a cancellation on short notice - I've heard plenty of people in the restaurant business complain about such practices.

Maybe it is self-selection - the people here on eGullet tend to be more serious and respectful of food and everything that goes into making it.

[dls]

I don't have a problem with any of this.  Someone who runs a restaurant wrote a message here about Valentine's Day.  Some amazing percentage of people who had made reservations failed to show.  I suspect if someone had dropped dead on Saturday - the restaurant here would have honored a cancellation.  But its payment policy for this "Hallmark holiday" meal is designed to let everyone know that it means business.

Let's see if I have this correct. You say "I don't have a problem with any of this" If, when making a reservation 3 weeks in advance, the restaurant did not notify you of their rather aggressive cancellation policy before charging your credit card in full (including tax/grat) on a non-refundable basis, you would not have a problem?

If the same restaurant, after your credit card had been charged, later informed you of the policy and stated very emphatically that there would be no refund in the event of an emergency, illness, and even death, you would not have a problem?

If the server at this restaurant told you that, in order to get a drink, you had to prepay in cash before he could get it from the bar, you would not have a problem?

Give me a break.

One thing that I forgot to mention earlier was that I asked if, in the event of an unavoidable but timely cancellation, could the monies already charged be applied to a later function. Nope.

Regarding the tax and gratuity, I don't have any issues here other than the manner in how they were pre-applied by suprise. First, you're going to pay the tax anyway. Second, I don't have a problem with the %. The servers don't dictate how much work they do or don't do at this type of function. Frankly, I probably would have done 20% had it been left up to me.

[wnissen]

Clearly, asking for cash payments for the drinks is just poor. That says, we expect you to steal from us by leaving without paying your bar tab. That's the first time I've ever heard of anything like that.

I agree that one can't ask the staff to work their regular shifts without good tips, but the point is that not all are needed for a buffet service where most of the work is dealing with drinks and empty plates, rather than order taking, food bringing, dessert order taking on top of everything else. I still like the idea of a cancellation fee, but the no-cancellation thing is pretty stupid, as is the rest of the restaurant.

Walt

[robyn]

Let's see if I have this correct. You say "I don't have a problem with any of this" If, when making a reservation 3 weeks in advance, the restaurant did not notify you of their rather aggressive cancellation policy before charging your credit card in full (including tax/grat) on a non-refundable basis, you would not have a problem?

If the same restaurant, after your credit card had been charged, later informed you of the policy and stated very emphatically that there would be no refund in the event of an emergency, illness, and even death, you would not have a problem?

If the server at this restaurant told you that, in order to get a drink, you had to prepay in cash before he could get it from the bar, you would not have a problem?

Give me a break.

One thing that I forgot to mention earlier was that I asked if, in the event of an unavoidable but timely cancellation, could the monies already charged be applied to a later function. Nope.

Regarding the tax and gratuity, I don't have any issues here other than the manner in how they were pre-applied by suprise. First, you're going to pay the tax anyway. Second, I don't have a problem with the %. The servers don't dictate how much work they do or don't do at this type of function. Frankly, I probably would have done 20% had it been left up to me.

The initial message said that the policy was mentioned when the reservation time was changed - and that there was no time to discuss "this new twist". I would obviously feel aggrieved if the charge was done without my knowledge. So I guess the facts will have to be clarified. Was the policy made clear before the card was charged?

I'll note that when I give my credit card number to a restaurant - I always ask exactly what they plan to do with it. And - when things are charged on my AMEX card without authorization - and I complain to AMEX - the charges are removed. So - if the charge wasn't authorized - a simple call to AMEX would have sufficed.

As for prepaying for drinks - I've never been at this kind of "festive occasion" buffet - except at places where I'm known (and therefore have never been asked for a credit card). I have however been to many bars in many places where payment (or a credit card imprint) is expected at the time the drinks are served.

You know - after thinking about this for a while - what it reflects terribly on isn't Hyatt - but the average person Hyatt has to deal with. If everyone who made reservations showed up - and everyone who ordered drinks paid for them - do you think Hyatt would have policies like this? And - for what it's worth - in reading another thread on this forum tonight - someone mentioned making "contingency reservations" at a few places while on a trip. Which is probably exactly what Hyatt was dealing with on Mother's Day here. People make 3 reservations and cancel 2. And meanwhile - people who've been told they can't make a reservation reserve somewhere else. I think restaurant seatings during very busy times should be like theater tickets. You buy them - you don't show up - tough. Sell what you bought on Ebay. Why is it I've never heard anyone complain about a nonrefundable theater ticket? Robyn

[robyn]

P.S. I was trying to think of times I might have encountered something like this. And the special Food Among the Flowers luncheon during the Epcot Flower Festival came to mind (you pay in full in advance - I can't remember if there was a cancellation policy). Robyn

[Alex]

I don't have a problem with any of this. Someone who runs a restaurant wrote a message here about Valentine's Day. Some amazing percentage of people who had made reservations failed to show. I suspect if someone had dropped dead on Saturday - the restaurant here would have honored a cancellation. But its payment policy for this "Hallmark holiday" meal is designed to let everyone know that it means business.

As for the tips - this is similar to my golf club. The servers usually work individual tables - and 18% service is usually added on. Those same people work the few buffets that are served during the year (like Easter - and Mother's Day) - and you can't expect them to work their shifts and go home empty handed. Robyn

I would have a bit less of a problem with this policy if it were restricted to those "Hallmark holidays" and, especially, if the restaurant kept my table open during the hour-and-a-half or so it normally takes to complete such a meal. It sounds like neither of these is true for this place.

[Bux]

I've never heard anyone here admit to being a no-show - or phoning in a cancellation on short notice

I've phoned in cancellations within hours of my scheduled dinner reservation. Most embarrassingly, I recall doing it twice in a row at the same restaurant only four nights apart. I don't remember the exact circumstances but it was a sudden stomach illness. I don't recall if it was one of us, one night and the other four days later, or if one of us had a relapse, but late in the afternoon we were eager for dinner and then it hit. We were in Biarritz at the time and returning through the city four days later. It was just a one star restaurant, but we were very keen on eating there and had managed a meal at a bistro owned by the chefs. As I said, we were very embarrassed, but we couldn't just not show.

More pertinent to this discussion, I'd say I'm not very moved by the thread or that I'm not so offended by the policies perhaps because I just can't see myself ever eating at this place. I will admit that the cash up front for the drinks is particularly tacky and it may say more about the abilities of the service staff than anything else or maybe, as Robyn suggested, the typical clientele. Once again, it's not something that troubles me, just an indication I shouldn't choose to eat there as it says much about the clientele that does eat there.

I should also note that I've gone on record a number of times in support of the idea that dinners should be sold the way theater tickets are sold. I don't understand why theater patrons are willing to accept full responsibility for paying for their seat whether they see the performance or not. There's no refund for sudden death or illness in the theater and many opera and ballet companies have a policy of asking you to donate your ticket to the house if you can't attend the performance.

[Bux]

One commenter upthread mentioned that I should contact Hyatt voicing my displeasure with the policy. I normally would do that. In this case however, I've chosen to post it as a topic on the eGullet forum. I have no doubt that a number of individuals of the Hyatt food service team are either members or visitors to the forum and review it, at least, on occasion. The message of "many to many" on a public forum of the depth and breadth of eGullet is much stronger than the private message of "one to one".

I tend to disagree with your decision here and believe your normal path of action is the better one. I generally believe a message to management directly is the best recourse. As you've written off the Hyatt, and I would too at least in this location, I suppose it makes little difference and there's not much satisfaction you could receive. There comes a time when the experience is so distasteful that a repeat, even without charge has no appeal.

[docsconz]

More pertinent to this discussion, I'd say I'm not very moved by the thread or that I'm not so offended by the policies perhaps because I just can't see myself ever eating at this place.

It troubles me because I see it as potentially a bad trend. I am not likely to ever eat in the Chicago Hyatt, but I find the principle to be degrading nevertheless.

I should also note that I've gone on record a number of times in support of the idea that dinners should be sold the way theater tickets are sold. I don't understand why theater patrons are willing to accept full responsibility for paying for their seat whether they see the performance or not. There's no refund for sudden death or illness in the theater and many opera and ballet companies have a policy of asking you to donate your ticket to the house if you can't attend the performance.

I think this would be a poor business decision on the part of restaurants as people would be much less likely to plan ahead for dining out and ultimately less likely to go out IMO, although the very top tier of restaurants might be able to get away with it. The analogy to theater is an interesting one, although I will point out that very few theatrical productions are economically successful for an extended period nor are repeat visits as likely as with a good restaurant..

[dls]

The initial message said that the policy was mentioned when the reservation time was changed - and that there was no time to discuss "this new twist". I would obviously feel aggrieved if the charge was done without my knowledge. So I guess the facts will have to be clarified. Was the policy made clear before the card was charged?

I'll note that when I give my credit card number to a restaurant - I always ask exactly what they plan to do with it. And - when things are charged on my AMEX card without authorization - and I complain to AMEX - the charges are removed. So - if the charge wasn't authorized - a simple call to AMEX would have sufficed.

As for prepaying for drinks - I've never been at this kind of "festive occasion" buffet - except at places where I'm known (and therefore have never been asked for a credit card). I have however been to many bars in many places where payment (or a credit card imprint) is expected at the time the drinks are served.

You know - after thinking about this for a while - what it reflects terribly on isn't Hyatt - but the average person Hyatt has to deal with. If everyone who made reservations showed up - and everyone who ordered drinks paid for them - do you think Hyatt would have policies like this? And - for what it's worth - in reading another thread on this forum tonight - someone mentioned making "contingency reservations" at a few places while on a trip. Which is probably exactly what Hyatt was dealing with on Mother's Day here. People make 3 reservations and cancel 2. And meanwhile - people who've been told they can't make a reservation reserve somewhere else. I think restaurant seatings during very busy times should be like theater tickets. You buy them - you don't show up - tough. Sell what you bought on Ebay. Why is it I've never heard anyone complain about a nonrefundable theater ticket? Robyn

Re: Your Para. 1 - The policy was presented to me after the card was charged. Verified with Amex that the charge was processed well before the second call from Hyatt when the policy was mentioned.

Re: Your Para. 2 - I'm well aware that I can contact Amex, or any other credit card company, and dispute the charge. I'm also aware of the fact that it can then become something of a "He Said/She Said" kind of pissing contest. As I said earlier, if something would have forced a cancellation, I would have disputed the charges. Nothing did. At the end of the day, with a few twists, it all worked out. The point deals with the non-refundable cancellation policy and lack of prior notice.

Re: Your Para 3 - I've spent the last 35 years of my life, and approximately 85% of my time, traveling throughout the world on business. Needless to say, I've dined out, or been out for drinks, quite a bit. At certain bars, it's quite common to pay for your drinks upon receiving them. I never, however, have been required to have a credit card imprinted. In any event, this was a restaurant, not a bar, that required payment, prior to service, being received.

Re Your Para 4 - Your comment regarding "contingency reservation" might have meaning somewhere but not here. As stated, MIL wanted to go here and I was able to reserve. Why would I, or anyone else, make reservations elsewhere when the venue of choice had been secured?

[ronnie_suburban]

Why is it I've never heard anyone complain about a nonrefundable theater ticket?

Good point.

=R=

[tommy]

I should also note that I've gone on record a number of times in support of the idea that dinners should be sold the way theater tickets are sold. I don't understand why theater patrons are willing to accept full responsibility for paying for their seat whether they see the performance or not. There's no refund for sudden death or illness in the theater and many opera and ballet companies have a policy of asking you to donate your ticket to the house if you can't attend the performance.

i go to the theater about once a year. i go out to eat, with reservations, about 50 or 80/100 times a year. i'm not sure those numbers are too different from the average theater goer/diner. i can see a disconnect here. perhaps it's worth discussing with repsect to the analogies presented here.

Edited May 12, 2004 by tommy (log)

[mongo_jones]

not all supper-theater then tommy?

[Alex]

Why is it I've never heard anyone complain about a nonrefundable theater ticket?

Good point.

=R=

Perhaps because unlike this restaurant, your seat doesn't get resold unless you decide to donate it. (And unlike the airlines, who'll resell your seat if they can, then charge you a hefty fee to reschedule. )

[ronnie_suburban]

Why is it I've never heard anyone complain about a nonrefundable theater ticket?

Good point.

=R=

Perhaps because unlike this restaurant, your seat doesn't get resold unless you decide to donate it. (And unlike the airlines, who'll resell your seat if they can, then charge you a hefty fee to reschedule. )

Another good point.

Still, I see some logic in the 'dinner ticket as theatre ticket' line of thinking--at least on a conceptual level. As for airlines, I've heard nothing but complaints about them and their policies over the years...in fact, don't even get me started

=R=

[blooangel]

Eh, I'm more bothered by the mandatory excessive gratuity on a buffet tab than by the cancellation fee. I'd rather see a cancellation charge of 75% if you cancel less than 24 hours before, but I prefer having some fee to the current system. Responsible people only cancel reservations on short notice in case of a genuine emergency, no? I don't care to subsidize people who don't show up, simply because it's slightly difficult and uncomfortable to call and do so.

Walt

The problem with this cancellation fee is that it is 100% no matter when one cancels or why one cancels. I don't have a problem with a reasonable penalty for no-shows, however, I do resent a cancellation fee when I act responsibly. The policy discussed in this topic is particularly egregious from any number of angles.

Two things:

The policy: I remember when I first started at a large, busy, very well-known restaurant in Chicago. My first New Year's Eve there, my first table of the evening informed me that they were very unhappy with our reservation policy, and would not be having the "great evening" that I had so -stupidly- wished them.

The policy: On "big days" Valentine's, Mother's Day, New Year's Eve ect., we would take a credit card number and inform the guest that in the event of a no-show/no-call we would bill them a set amount of money as a "cancellation fee".

Note please that a) it was made clear that if they called and cancelled, the fee would not be charged and b) the entire three years that I worked there nobody was ever actually charged this cancellation fee even if they did pull a no-show/no-call. Why bother stating the policy then?

Because one New Year's fully 50% of the reservations did not show up.

The cost? Tremendous. Food was purchased that was never used, staff both kitchen and front of the house was paid when they weren't needed, and real live guests who -did- want to eat were turned away because we were fully booked.

The story: At that same restaurant, a very wise chef revealed this personal favorite of mine....A very small restaurant in...we'll leave the city blank so that nobody is hurt. New Year's Eve, and every table is booked for a beautiful dinner so perfectly planned that it hurts. This guy is not trying to turn tables for big numbers, in fact, so personally invested in his guest's evening is he, that he has only made 1 reservation per table this evening. The guest has been promised an entire intimate evening at one of the hottest restaurants in town...every part of the night has been planned to perfection.

1 table doesn't show up. 10pm reservation. Last table of the night. 12 person table. Ouch.

The owner/chef/head dishwasher calls the home during the evening. He's worried about them. An accident? Family murdered? Wrong on all counts. The missing table has cheerfully left a message for all callers that they go to a different restaurant for their 'party'.

He bites the bullet and calls the cell phone number. It's a fake.

Soooooo it's 2am New Year's Day. Our man is cleaning up, counting the money, and toasting his hard working crew for a job well done...but that missing table nags him. He feels personally offended, hurt, used even. He suspects that the villians have made multiple reservations to ensure that they have all their options open. He suspects that maybe the table didn't even care about -his- food, or -his- evening that he so lovingly planned. So, at 4am, he calls the home again. A sleepy, well-fed voice answers.

"How was dinner?"

"What?"

"I'm asking you how your dinner was."

"Who is this?"

"Restaurant X."

"Why are you calling at this time of night?

"Well, I figure it this way...I'm still here, your food is uneaten, I just wanted to make sure it was alright if I close up...Since you never cancelled your reservation, I've been waiting for you."

Not that the Hyatt policy is right, I'm just offering a slightly different take on the issue.

[ronnie_suburban]

Thanks for the insights blooangel.

=R=

[robyn]

Perhaps because unlike this restaurant, your seat doesn't get resold unless you decide to donate it. (And unlike the airlines, who'll resell your seat if they can, then charge you a hefty fee to reschedule.  )

Well - we were talking about one of the handful of "big deal" restaurant days during the year. Most people who want to go out on those dates don't simply show up at the last minute. I think Blooangel expressed the restaurant's point of view (which I was trying to express) much better than I can.

As for airlines - most are pretty much going broke despite making customers like you angry. So I don't think it's a great business model. Robyn

[docsconz]

As I have stated a reasonable policy for no-shows is fine. That is not what this thread is about. I think if a customer does not have the courtesy to call and cancel a reservation, that customer should be penalized. I have no problem with that. However, non-refundable charge just for making a reservation is another story altogether.