Pasta ?

[Big Bunny]

Under General Topics, in a discussion of endangered and extinct dishes, mongo_jones says:

"--pasta has greater cultural cache than say an old-school bengali vegetable and fish dish."

I only know Indian cuisine from books and restaurants. This forum has, obviously, opened my eyes to a zillion things I don't find there.

Being from a partly Italian background - I was reared in an Italian neighborhood - pasta is one of my life's treasures.

How is pasta used in India?

Do you just borrow Italian, and other, dishes? Or is pasta actually integrated into the cuisine?

Please forgive me, mongo_jones, if I quote you miles out of context.

BB

[Episure]

I think Peppertrail-Ammini will have to say something interesting on this.

[mongo_jones]

yes, this is slightly out of context. i was speaking in terms of the changing valuations of certain traditional foods among younger urban people in india. things like pasta have more currency than traditional recipes, many of which are not making the generational transfer.

as for pasta in india, it is almost entirely a restaurant phenomenon. it hasn't been incorporated into indian cuisine as such.

[Big Bunny]

Thank you, mongo_jones.

BB

[Peppertrail]

How is pasta used in India? Do you just borrow Italian, and other, dishes? Or is pasta actually integrated into the cuisine?

I think Peppertrail-Ammini will have to say something interesting on this.

Ok, Episure, if you insist.

I agree with mongo_jones that Italian pasta is almost entirely a restaurant phenomenon. During my last visit I was surprised to see pasta dishes in many restaurant menus. Then there are those Maggi brand noodles which children seem to enjoy. But is that really pasta? I don't know.

My undertanding is (please correct me if I am wrong) that pasta is made with duram wheat flour, water and eggs. In Kerala (and in other parts of India too) we make a dessert, Semiya Paaayasam with very thin wheat noodles made of just wheat flour and water. These noodles are first toasted in ghee before cooking with milk and sugar. We also make a savory dish semiya uppuma with these noodles. The dish takes its name from sevian, the hair thin wheat noodles that were introduced to us by Arab traders. Another pasta look alike dish is idiyappam, rice-noodle cakes with fresh coconut filling, that are steam cooked in banana leaves.

[Big Bunny]

I thank you, too, Peppertrail.

Yes, the best pasta is Durham wheat.

I have tasted an Indian snack made of noodles which were very thin, less than one-sixteenth inch. The noodles were dry, but soft enough to eat, and coated with spices.

Might these have been sevian?

What fascinates me is that some things don't interchange well. It would seem that a good curry or pasta sauce would be just as tasty over good pasta or good rice.

Yet, somehow it rarely "works." I often try off-the-wall combinations in a hurry, and these impromptu "fusions" are generally not bad, but somehow not right.

I wonder how much of this is just culture, and how much is due to actual diferrences in the tastes and textures of the foods involved.

BB

[mongo_jones]

yes, you'd think keema curry (ground meat curry) would go well with any pasta shape that goes well with a bolognese sauce, but usually it tastes repulsive. strange since italian is the western european cuisine that looks the most like indian.

on the other hand, i can imagine some italian dishes--cacciatore etc. tasting quite good with steamed rice (not basmati though).

[Big Bunny]

True. There are so many kind of rice and pasta, yet rice and pasta are uniquely different beasts.

My Grandmother served cacciatore over polenta, yet another variable in the equation. Of course, I love it just that way because Grandma did it that way!

BB

[Peppertrail]

I have tasted an Indian snack made of noodles which were very thin, less than one-sixteenth inch. The noodles were dry, but soft enough to eat, and coated with spices.

Might these have been sevian?

What fascinates me is that some things don't interchange well. It would seem that a good curry or pasta sauce would be just as tasty over good pasta or good rice.

Yet, somehow it rarely "works." I often try off-the-wall combinations in a hurry, and these impromptu "fusions" are generally not bad, but somehow not right.

I wonder how much of this is just culture, and how much is due to actual diferrences in the tastes and textures of the foods involved.

BB

The Indian snack you described seems like semiya uppuma. Very thin noodles are crushed into small pieces, toasted in a little oil, and then cooked with sauteed green chili peppers, freshly grated ginger, mustard seeds and curry leaves. In Kerala we can't seem to cook anything without coconut, so we garnish it with grated coconut and cilantro leaves.

As much as I love Italian food, I don't like to combine Indian food with Italian food. May be I am too old fashioned - I don't like fusion cuisine. I like to cook both Italian and Indian in the traditional way.

It is probably partly culture and partly tastes.

[Big Bunny]

As much as I love Italian food, I don't like to combine Indian food with Italian food. May be I am too old fashioned - I don't like fusion cuisine. I like to cook both Italian and Indian in the traditional way.

It is probably partly culture and partly tastes.

I feel the same way. The tomatoes and onions give everything so much in common, yet the other spices and herbs are so completely diferent.

Because I like to try different styles of cooking, I sometimes have very interesting mixes of leftovers. Rarely, if ever, can I enjoy Indian with Italian, or Chinese, or whatever.

I feel that plainish rice is more likely to go with anything than most "starches", but, as mongo_jones points out, as soon as the rice has character of its own, it begins to assert itself.

BB

[mongo_jones]

i will say that some things i have learned from making a limited number of italian dishes at home for the last 5 or 6 years have leaked into my preparations of indian dishes. for instance using herbs/leaves to scent tomato based sauces. usually in bengali cooking some chopped cilantro is just used as a garnish at the end--i've found that adding a little basil or curry leaves 5 minutes before finishing an alur-dom makes for a nice change. also instead of making my standard garlic paste to be added after onions for some dishes i'll sometimes saute a lot of chopped garlic beforehand and add those to the onions.

i wouldn't call this fusion though--it is not the cuisines that have fused here but to a limited extent my cooking habits. this has happend with my preparations of dishes from different indian cuisines as well. i feel like i cook with a bengali accent sometimes and with a punjabi accent at other times. occasionally a little italian sneaks in.

[Big Bunny]

Fusion has become so silly.

What you have done is to follow your instincts, and expanded individual cuisines thereby.

"Fusion" is usually just misguided tricks, with some sort of sweetish sauce.

BB

[mongo_jones]

i've probably said this multiple times on these forums--who can remember?--but i say only half-jokingly about fusion cooking in the u.s that involves asian cuisines that it is largely meant for people who don't know much about or have much interest in those asian cuisines to begin with.

[Big Bunny]

I agree.

Fusion, potentially a powerful idea, end up as dabbling.

Sadly, these styles draw people away from trying real (as close as it can be in the U.S.) cuisines.

Of course, most people really don't care one way or the other. It can be quite dismaying to suggest Chinese food to someone, and have them immediately propose a Japanese restaurant.

I guess it is like the theological concept of "invincible ignorance."

BB

[Pan]

Of course, most people really don't care one way or the other. It can be quite dismaying to suggest Chinese food to someone, and have them immediately propose a Japanese restaurant.

I guess it is like the theological concept of "invincible ignorance."

BB

What does that mean?

[rajsuman]

Although we use rice pasta (more like noodles) down south, I suppose vermicelli (pronounced vermi - selli in India) is the only wheat pasta in wide use. You can also obtain macaroni easily.

Suman

[Peppertrail]

Although we use rice pasta (more like noodles) down south, I suppose vermicelli (pronounced vermi - selli in India) is the only wheat pasta in wide use. You can also obtain macaroni easily.

Suman

Suman:

vermicelli and semiya are the same thing.

Ammini

[Monica Bhide]

My mom actually makes this dish with ground lamb and macaroni that is delicious. i am sure its not authentic Indian but we have been eating it for years. If anyone would like I can post the recipe here

[Behemoth]

I can't claim to be an expert on either cuisine, but it might be fun to explore the common ground between venetian-style recipes (that include raisins, cinnamon) with eastern cuisines. Venice did a lot of trade with spice-producing countries and I think you can see some influences there.

I have always been fascinated by the continuum of recipes from India, through Iran, the Mediterranian and into Turkey and Greece. Yoghurt, lentils, rice and eggplant bear a good deal of similarity, as does the use of certain spices. There is also a bit of a continuum going from north africa through spain, which can be fun to think about. Has anyone else tried to play with this?

[Peppertrail]

I can't claim to be an expert on either cuisine, but it might be fun to explore the common ground between venetian-style recipes (that include raisins, cinnamon) with eastern cuisines. Venice did a lot of trade with spice-producing countries and I think you can see some influences there.

I have always been fascinated by the continuum of recipes from India, through Iran, the Mediterranian and into Turkey and Greece. Yoghurt, lentils, rice and eggplant  bear a good deal of similarity, as does the use of certain spices. There is also a bit of a continuum going from north africa through spain, which can be fun to think about. Has anyone else tried to play with this?

Influences of centuries of foreign trade, both via the Silk Road through the north and Indian Ocean trade with east and west coasts of India has left its imprint on our agriculture and cuisine.

I have only studied the Indian Ocean trade with Kerala. This flourishing spice trade began before the birth of Christ. Nomadic Arabs and ancient Phoenicians were among the first who came to Kerala for trade. Spice trade and commerce between China and south India by sea began as early as 2nd century B.C. The Arabs gained control of the lucrative spice trade by 600 B.C. More than one hundred ships set sail every year from the Egyptian ports of Myos Hormos and Berenice on the shore of the Red Sea toward India. They left in July, at the height of the southwestern monsoon season, and returned, carrying their precious cargo of black pepper and cinnamon, with the northwest monsoons in November. Overland caravans then transported the cargo from these ports to the port of Alexandria. And from there it traveled by ship to the rest of the Mediterranean. Venice and Genova were the major ports along the shores of Mediterranean. During the reign of King Ptolemy VII, about 120 to 116 B C, a Greek sailor learned to navigate his ship toward India’s tropical coast, and thus began the age of Roman trade. Our trade with the Romans was extensive and lasted for several centuries. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the Arabs regained control again. During the latter half of 15th century, the royalties of Spain and Portugal financed dozens of expeditions in search of a sea route to the spice coast India. The Dutch and the British followed them. Spice trade was as profitable an undertaking as it was complex.

[Episure]

I think Peppertrail-Ammini will have to say something interesting on this.

See, I told you all.

[Big Bunny]

Of course, most people really don't care one way or the other. It can be quite dismaying to suggest Chinese food to someone, and have them immediately propose a Japanese restaurant.

I guess it is like the theological concept of "invincible ignorance."

BB

What does that mean?

In theology,if someone is "invincibly ignorant", they cannot be held accountable for their lack of faith, or whatever.

I fear most people will remain eternally unaware of the variety of foods around them, therefore innocent in their lack of response to offers of better things.

Fusion food is like postcards of places you haven't really seen. There is the feeling of having been somewhere, when you haven't. That somewhere probably doesn't exist. Your ignorance remains invincible.

BB

[Episure]

I fear most people will remain eternally unaware of the variety of foods around them, therefore innocent in their lack of response to offers of better things.

BB

Thus spake BB!

I must remember to use this line when I am breaking my head with such people.

[Pan]

Of course, most people really don't care one way or the other. It can be quite dismaying to suggest Chinese food to someone, and have them immediately propose a Japanese restaurant.

I guess it is like the theological concept of "invincible ignorance."

BB

What does that mean?

In theology,if someone is "invincibly ignorant", they cannot be held accountable for their lack of faith, or whatever.

I fear most people will remain eternally unaware of the variety of foods around them, therefore innocent in their lack of response to offers of better things.

Fusion food is like postcards of places you haven't really seen. There is the feeling of having been somewhere, when you haven't. That somewhere probably doesn't exist. Your ignorance remains invincible.

BB

I like your take on this, Big Bunny.

[Rushina]

On the subject of Pasta in Indian Cuisine.

When I was a child I remember eating Macaroni and alphabets in alphabet soups. Um Bambino is a local company and the pasta is made of processed flour. On cooking it results in a soft silky pasta and on overcooking it turns intoa stodgy mess. Bambino is what it was called and it came to the table as a "bakedish" Usually layers of this pasta with some boiled veges thrown in, smothered with white sauce and cheese. The white sauce was spiked with some green chillies. I still make it like that sometimes, when I am nostalgic.

Pasta as I cook it today, where the pasta is cooked to al dente and then tossed with the sauce, was never made then.

I look at Pasta as pasta and the furthest I have ever gotten to Indianising pasta is stiffrying Green Peppers, Onions and tomatoes, adding lots of Kitchen King masalla and tossing some pasta into it. This is quite yummy. I can post a recipe if anyone wants it.

We used to have Kheema and Bambino at school. I liked it then and drool at the thought now, but have never had it since.

Rushina