Cooking "here" and "there"

[pumpernickel]

I have enjoyed the thoughtfulness and depth expressed in this roundtable with Guy tremendously. One topic that surfaced several times is that between European culinary culture and American - fill in what you please -, be it in products or their appreciation. This topic is of great interest to me as I have recently moved over from Europe to California. One of the first things I noticed is that cooking the way I did in Europe did not work out at all. My first impression was that the ingredients might be the issue and there's a lot to it, for instance:

- scallops, not at all as tasty and delicate as the Atlantique ones, and they quickly turn into rubber;

- artichokes, the Italian ones are much more "mineral" and fragrant;

- mushrooms, whatever variety, they are huge and dry, with more aromatic persistance of taste than one would care for - o dear memory of the porcini collected freshly, sweet and fragrant;

- cheese, Parmiggiano and other hard cheeses are ok, but forget my beloved chevres or any other soft cheeses for that matter etc. (ok I don't really cook with them, so forget about that one). I could go on like this for a while, but I will stop. Maybe you can complete the list with products that don't taste quite the same.

I felt like I had to learn how to cook all over, because products would have the same name but taste completely different, e.g. take peas, sweet and crunchy in CA, earthy and yet delicate in good old Europe. I have to mention that my particular style of cooking owes a lot to the tastes of the products themselves (mostly vegetables, because they have the most subtle tastes.) But with time, I learned to appreciate qualities in products that are different in Europe or that we don't have at all. For instance, I have rarely tasted tomatoes that are as good as the many kinds of heirloom tomatoes you get in CA. Or take sweet corn, okra, pea tenders. And, o, he citrus fruits!!!

There's tons of stuff that I will miss back in Europe, but I think that the different cuisines that I have adapted to "here" and "there" are not just a consequence of different raw materials but also one of moods, flavours, "cultural" atmosphere, weather etc. Here, in CA, there is so much influence from all kinds of different cuisines, Thai, Chinese, Mexican, to name but a few, whereas "there" in Europe, we have cuisines that are more insolite, pur souche. Overall, as one of my strongest associations, I would think of European cuisine as autumnal, full of earthy, complex and delicate flavours, the beauty of a flower at its peak before it passes, whereas CA cuisine is bright, colourful, intense and cheerful, a thing of the moment. Think of all the flower smells you have in CA vs. the sous-bois of a European autumn. Then again, those happen to be the same associations I would come up with if somebody were to ask me to explain the differences between European and New world wines. Then again, if you think about the range and importance of wine pairings in Europe and America, you have a similar picture (not to mention pairings with Coca-Cola, and then there's my cultural pessimism, that some styles of American wines are no more than an effort to sublimate Coke and the cynical scientist chiming in that freeze-drying might be are more appropriate means to that end... and STOP!).

So are these purely personal impressions and/or what are yours on cooking "here" and "there"?

Edited April 30, 2004 by pumpernickel (log)

[guygateau]

I am sharing your views Pumpernickel. Impressions, moods,happiness, everything as an impact on what we do when we cook. Here & there...

[robert brown]

I do the shopping and my wife does the cooking both "here" and "there". In a general way we always are sad and frustrated to have to return in September to New York from Nice. It is the corn and tomato season when we return, so our first stop on our first day back is to Barney Greengrass for appetizing and a small framers market on Columbus Avenue. We are always disappointed by the tomatoes from New Jersey. They have gotten worse over the years possibly because of much bigger yields. Corn is not as good either, but it's a product that starts to deteriorate as soon as you pick it. I think of the produce I get at the big farmers market in Cannes or by the Prefecture in Nice's Cours Salaya where the array and the quality of produce is remarkable. Even better at times is the market just across the border in Ventimiglia, especially for fish, the freshness of which you never see in New York. Yet Guy is enamored of what he sees in the States, often more so than in France. Perhaps there is no one country better than another and that it all depends on where you are in terms of location and shopping resources. (and there are "vintage" summers for fruit and vegetables) Pumpernickel's wonderful comparative post is probably as close to some objective notion of reality as we are likely to get.

[John Whiting]

Yet Guy is enamored of what he sees in the States, often more so than in France.

I have often heard it said that there are top suppliers in the US who deal almost entirely with the best chefs, whose produce rarely reaches the domestic market.

[hathor]

I also cook here (New York) and there (Italy), and the differences are vast. Am I the only one who enjoys dirty vegetables? I mean with dirt on them. Why do the U.S. supermarkets think that drowning the vegetables with sprayers is a good idea? I do battle with the sprayer anytime I'm forced to shop at the Shop Rite. I sometimes shop at the COOP in Italy, its a super mercato. Even their vegetables are better, labelled with their origin, so you have some idea of what you can expect. The Shop Rite apparently prizes uniformity (and water) over flavor.

When I'm in Italy, the food is very simple and flavorful. When I'm in NY, I have to resort to more tricks (i.e. sauces, condiments).

In the long run, its all good, but I do carry the Crystal sauce along with me to Ialy.

[John Whiting]

Am I the only one who enjoys dirty vegetables? I mean with dirt on them. Why do the U.S. supermarkets think that drowning the vegetables with sprayers is a good idea?

As Guy Gateau has pointed out, photography has done much to create an appreciation of fresh produce, but it has also created in the inexperienced an unreasonable demand for visual perfection. Fruits and vegatables must be in their "Sunday best", or they will be rejected. The supermarkets, having created the expectation that you can pop a carrot straight into your mouth without washing it, must thenceforth abide by it.

[pumpernickel]

Thanks for your input, dear forumites. Robert, I agree fully that all depends on where you are. You and Hathor certainly have vastly different impressions on this subject owing to the fact that you have moved from continental to mediterrean climate going to Europe, while I have done so the other way round. The two coasts are certainly very different, foodwise and else...

...as close to some objective notion of reality as we are likely to get.

Funny you should mention that notion objectivity, Robert, to somebody who is supposed to have a professional relationship with said notion but not really succeeding in doing so - how do you relate to what you believe does not exist?

Without disgressing into the shallow waters of philosophy and back to my original point, let me rephrase my question:

Have you ever cooked a dish successfully or been able to reproduce it both here and there?

I am not referring to the trivial truth that every time you cook a dish it turns out slightly different (no "tasty" renderings of poor Heraclit's fragments, please...), but rather to whether a well-rehearsed dish, one that you have more or less brought to perfection, "there", works "here" and vice-versa. Viewed this way, the question alludes to how much a particular dish rests on the quality of its ingredients, quality in the ancient sense of quidditas rather than "good"-ness.

Apart from spaghetti aglio et olio, I can't think of any dish that has worked for me on both shores...

[hathor]

Have you ever cooked a dish successfully or been able to reproduce it both here and there?

Bolognese sauce. I was actually able to make a perfect Bolognese in New York. I did have to go out and buy a earthenware casserole, but after that, it was good as it gets.

But, no matter how many times I try, I still cannot perfect scotto ditto, and I have argued with my NY butcher many times on how thin you can slice lamb...and he's Neopolitan! Which apparently translates to mean stubborn.

[Bux]

Yet Guy is enamored of what he sees in the States, often more so than in France.

I have often heard it said that there are top suppliers in the US who deal almost entirely with the best chefs, whose produce rarely reaches the domestic market.

I was surprised when a young chef in St. Jean de Luz told me he had never seen produce in France the equal to what he had to work with at Daniel in New York when he did an appreticeship there. I always seem to feel the produce is far better in France than it is in New York. Granted, I don't often have the chance to actually cook with much of the produce I see. Most of what I can buy in France has to be limited to what I can eat uncooked on a picnic, but from time to time we cook in a friend's kitchen in the Bas Languedoc and I have shopped with a French chef in Breton marchés ouverts and hypermarchés and eaten the finished food. I won't overlook the "grass is always greener on the other side" aspect of all this, nor will I discount the subjective nature of eating on vacation in a foreign land vs. dealing with the daily grind at home, but there may well be truth in John's comment.

I can only regret I have missed this discussion while the chef was in residence. In truth that's only applicable to a degree. We've been traveling in Spain and eating food that just seems better than what Americans have to work with. I don't know why the potatoes are so much better here, but I know that most Americans would blanch at the prices we've seen for seafood in the markets.

[John Whiting]

Bux's comments are thought-provoking. I would suggest that the US has become so controlled by money that its top chefs will inevitably have access to sources denied to those who are unable to charge for their meals in three figures.

[Jonathan Day]

My "here to there" consists of a move, several times a year, between Northern Europe (London) and Southern (France, near Cannes).

It is hard to generalise, because the availability of good ingredients in London has changed drastically over the past decade: the quality and range of products is far superior to what it once was. Over the same period, France has seen "improvements" in its supply chain system, meaning that the quality of some supermarket produce has declined -- though prices have come down as well.

It is simply not the case that every French consumer is a passionate foodie, spending hours each day in search of the perfect cheese, the most flavourful tomato or the freshest fish. Frozen and prepared dishes seem to sell very well at the supermarkets. Yet my sense is that the average French consumer is a bit more demanding than his or her British counterpart when it comes to fruits and vegetables. You can find excellent produce in London, but you have to search for it. In general, good products are more widely available in France. It takes less travel and less fuss to find them. Even the smallest towns will generally have a couple of butchers, a few bakeries, specialist greengrocers, fishmonger, etc.

I have done relatively little shopping or cooking in the US over the last 10 years, and am rarely in one town long enough to get to know the best places to shop. Outside of large cities, it still seems to be difficult to find a specialist butcher. Last December I did find and cook some Peconic Bay scallops that were a marvel of freshness and flavour, and it's clear from reports on these boards that good products can be found in the US. But the supermarkets seem to rule there.

[hathor]

I have done relatively little shopping or cooking in the US over the last 10 years, and am rarely in one town long enough to get to know the best places to shop. Outside of large cities, it still seems to be difficult to find a specialist butcher. Last December I did find and cook some Peconic Bay scallops that were a marvel of freshness and flavour, and it's clear from reports on these boards that good products can be found in the US. But the supermarkets seem to rule there.

Generally speaking, you are correct that mass supermarket chains are the norm. It takes time and energy to seek out good purveyors. Although, in recent years, there has been a definite improvement in the quality and selection available in the supermarkets.

[Jonathan Day]

Hathor, as your signature line ("these pots are not for people who love to cook, these are for people who are in love with the idea of cooking") suggests, one problem with supermarkets, both in the UK and in the US, is that they are serving customers who may be more in love with the idea of cooking than with the messy business of cooking itself.

The Sainsbury's near us (Balham) has just re-opened in a "market" format, similar to the one in Pimlico and the one at the Bluebird. I stopped in, and sure enough it has expanded, set up a number of service counters, and adopted the "market" layout of the other stores.

Sadly, the quality didn't follow. Round lettuces (of acceptable quality) were being flogged at 10p apiece, while plastic-packed pre-cut pre-washed salads were being sold for 20 times that. Yet the latter were already brown when I looked at them. At least Sainsbury's have the decency to package them in transparent bags. Mussels were being sold from a machine that continually sprayed water onto them, yet were unpleasantly strong-tasting.

Good news, on the other hand: the owner of Moxon's, a restaurant formerly in the space now occupied by Thyme, has opened a fishmonger's near Clapham South tube. On Saturday I had a dressed crab, half a dozen Colchester oysters and some unsoaked scallops: all of them very good. The shop is tiny, and perhaps the range and quality don't rival Steve Hatt's, but it's a big win for this neighbourhood.

So it is possible to find good products "here" as well as "there"...

[hathor]

So it is possible to find good products "here" as well as "there"...

And sometimes the hunt for ingredients can be as much fun as the finding!

[commander]

To this thread, I will add the following reflection. We have a fund of classical recipes but the quality and culinary characteristics of ingredients vary greatly in terms of the geographical distribution of cooks. I think that regardless of where the chef is located, classic recipes can be performed with ingredients available locally. It is ridiculous to expect that a recipe performed in the US with local ingredients will be the same as the same recipe performed in France or the UK. A chef must know the culinary characteristics of his local produce and work through the problem that the dish may not have the identical taste with the dish cooked elsewhere.

It is interesting when geography, not technique, is influentially determinate upon the outcome of a dish. But I don't think there is much that can be done about that, short of having ingredients flown in from the chef's chosen sources. The chef must still know what he can obtain for his work, know its culinary qualities, apply correct technique to exploit the unique flavor of local ingredients, and shape it into a magnificent dish to send to the table. The future of gastronomy lies in the chef reaching beyond what is delivered by the provisioner to shopping for ingredients in local markets. I remember cornering the chef of one of my favorite restaurants provisioning in the same market I was shopping in thirty years ago. It was perhaps my first epiphany in cooking. A good chef learns to do the best with what he or she can obtain.

My bride wants me to fix her a salad with pear,pan toasted nuts, a strong cheese and a simple dressing. We are waiting for the pear to ripen a point. Maybe this time tomorrow...

[John Whiting]

A good chef learns to do the best with what he or she can obtain.

. . . as, historically, did the good housewife. In the days of widespread poverty, slow transport and no refrigeration, "local and seasonal" were compulsory, not voluntary. People would have had cravings for foods that were on the edge of seasonality. When the ingredients were before or after their prime, they would have done the best they could. Or indeed, when ingredients started to go off, they would make the best of it -- "hanging" meat and the aging of ripe, smelly cheeses would have been accidental discoveries.

Consider also long-distance migration, which DNA research now reveals to have been much more prevelant than we had imagined. Such migrants would have taken their food preferences with them into regions where their favored ingredients didn't exist. It would have taken a long time to evolve totally new combinations and methods of preparation; meanwhile they would apply the knowledge they brought with them to what was at hand.

Here in Britain, I've had cravings for favorite French foods at times when the ingredients were either unobtainable or extravagantly expensive. When no fish scraps were available, I evolved a soupe de poisson costing only a couple of pounds for a couple of quarts; on another occasion I made a cassoulet from ingredients bought in an ordinary smallish supermarket on the north coast of Scotland. Neither was "authentic", but both were instantly recognizable and better than I've often had in their native habitat (not habitat as in Conran).

As Julia Child openly stated, this was the rationale behind her Mastering the art . . . The ingredients she experimented with in Paris all came from a US military PX.

Edited May 5, 2004 by John Whiting (log)

[Jonathan Day]

A good chef learns to do the best with what he or she can obtain.

Now that it's possible, through the Internet and air shipment, to find and obtain the "original" ingredient (a Bresse chicken, lamb from the Sisteron, etc.), it's easy to fall into a trap of perfection: the dish simply can't be made without "authentic" ingredients, no matter how degraded these have become through shipping or canning. This is a serious error, in my view.

At the same time, it is useful for the cook to have tasted and perhaps cooked a classic dish in its original surroundings and with "authentic" ingredients, simply to provide a point of reference, a sense of what the dish might be. On our first trip to Paris, many years ago, we stayed in an apartment rather than a hotel, and I cooked ingredients we had bought in the local market. One of these was a "black legged" chicken, an old hen, which we cooked long and slowly until it was tender. I have found that experience useful, after many decades, in calibrating how such a dish can taste, and adjusting the cooking to accommodate less flavourful birds.

There is also a point where ingredients are so bad that they aren't worth preparing. John cites Julia Child, who wrote that her first book might have been subtitled "French Cooking from the American Supermarket". At the time it was published, American supermarkets -- at least where I was -- offered such horrible ingredients that it was a stretch to call anything cooked from them "French", even though French techniques could be used.

According to the badly written but reasonably factual biography by Noel Riley Fitch, Julia Child shopped from local vendors in Paris. The military PX was in Germany, where she and Paul Child were subsequently transferred. If I recall the story correctly, one of the primary ingredients available was frozen turkey, and at certain times of the year the base "smelled of rancid turkey fat". Child has been criticised by John and Karen Hess for not paying enough attention, in her writings, to the quality of ingredients available.

[John Whiting]

Child has been criticised by John and Karen Hess for not paying enough attention, in her writings, to the quality of ingredients available.

The understatement of the year! Vitriol drips from the pages. But John and Karen have given me an appetite for vitriol applied by intelligent hands; the world would be a less well-seasoned place without it.

Jonathan is of course quite correct in recommending a salutary taste of the Real Thing. My plea for flexible standards was not meant to encourage laziness or mizerliness, but rather as a reminder that when we run out of champagne, we're allowed to let down the bucket where we are.

EDIT: There are certain oriental chicken recipes that are so elaborately flavored and highly spiced that it would be difficult to tell the worst battery chicken from the best organic free range specimen. Given the quality of birds that have been coming here from the Far East, there's probably a very good reason.

Edited May 6, 2004 by John Whiting (log)

[bleudauvergne]

One of the main things that struck me when I arrived here in France from there in the U.S. was the way we evolve through the seasons to a much more pronounced degree here. The vegetables here at all open air French markets that are in just about every neighborhood here look good not because they are cleaned of all traces of dirt, shined to a waxy sheen, and placed under automatic sprayers to be misted every 90 seconds to add a dewy fresh appearance, but because they have been picked at the farm often within days of reaching my kitchen, sometimes even that morning. The same goes for the meats. Certain meat is better at certain times of the year, the spring lamb comes to mind, for example. Cheeses taste different depending on what the cows have grazed on at what times of the year, for example Abondance d’ete vs. Abondance d’hiver. These were all fascinating to discover as time has gone by. I’m learning as fast as I can, but it’s endless and it’ll be years before I’ve really got a grasp on enough.

My impressions during the first year were – wow see and taste the produce, meat, and bakery products! Disappointment when products disappeared without warning, or being looked at like I was crazy for asking for things that were out of season. Thanksgiving I spent a great deal of energy and even shed tears attempting to obtain a turkey for Thanksgiving and we finally settled on a Pintade.

Second year – Hey, I’ve seen that mushroom/root/whatever at the same time last year. Things began to click. Thanksgiving I proudly made that special order at the butcher for a free range Turkey and was shocked by the tough scrawny sack of bones ½ the size we had ordered that was delivered.

Third year I looked at my notes from the two previous years and had fun anticipating the arrival of some really wonderful things, and benefited from knowing how long they’d be available. – “ah the baby fennel will be coming very soon, better fight like the rest to get it just as soon as it arrives because it won’t be there the next week” “chanterelles - buy immediately, the price goes up”. Thanksgiving we ingeniously sourced a big fat industrially raised turkey and were shocked with the poor quality and taste. (The french simply don't breed roasters for November).

This year, I am doing a lot more planning in advance for involved projects like dessert wines and special terrines that include things that are available fresh within a very small window of opportunity, and I have begun to put much more effort into sourcing and exploring various local offerings in surrounding regions, locally processed meats and cheeses. We have also decided to scrap this Turkey idea for Thanksgiving and give thanks like the pilgrims did for the abundance they had around them. This coming November it’ll be either a wild young boar complete with apple in mouth or other fresh hunted wild game – what’s available.

What Jonathan says is true, French hypermarkets do stock all kinds of vegetables that suffer the same consequences as any produce cross bred to achieve tough skin for long shelf life. The hypermarkets have imported the logistical know-how that developed long ago in the U.S. to feed massive numbers or provide competetive selection of out of season vegetables at the lowest possible price. Here in France, many of these vegetables have been shipped long distances and were grown in hothouses, their roots never having touched soil – rather vats of gel in tent cities constructed on desert land inhospitable to natural plant growth. They look beautiful, not one bruise, and the price is right. But the taste is just not there.

I think another main difference about here and there (France / U.S.) is that here, local economies much more easily support their artisans. Butchers who specialize in making the most of an animal are supported by the communities, people wait in line for their meat. Normal everyday people make their rounds at the butcher, the baker, etc. And it’s not a certain privilidged class or food obscessed individual who patronize these establishments. You don't have to go out of your way for these things. I know it’s very hard for small business who deal in perishable goods to survive in the U.S. due to the economic (read: Walmart) climate, and that saddens me. I often dream of taking a bakery, a bouchon, a French butcher and plunking it down in the middle of the small American town where my mother lives. But the more I think about it, the more I realize, I would never accomplish what I wanted to, because it would be out of context, foreign, exotic, whatever. I dream of the day when I can go home to a place where good fresh food can be the norm and not the exception, and moderation and human care for maintaining the quality of the bounty of the land is common practice.

A note about Asian produce and animal products, John. Having lived in Beijing almost as long as I have now been in France, I can positively say that quality and freshness was wonderful for the meat as well as the vegetables. In fact it was in China that I really began to have freshness catharsis experiences - it is huge industrial production operations and long term shipping that cause damage. I can also say that it was very difficult to find real chinese food in the U.S. unless it was prepared at home. The real thing isn't half as elaborately flavored and highly spiced as you imagine. edit: maybe you mean other parts of Asia than China, so I am speaking from a biased standpoint. Beijing is not the center of the universe, I think.

Edited May 6, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[hathor]

I dream of the day when I can go home to a place where good fresh food can be the norm and not the exception, and moderation and human care for maintaining the quality of the bounty of the land is common practice.

Very well put! My here/there is NY/Italy...this year in Italy I learned about fresh peas. They were only around for a week! If I had only known...!

I think half the fun is the anticipation, waiting for those frais de bois, waiting for good local corn on the cob, tomatoes.

But, can someone explain the Umbrian philosophy of no fish in August?? I've heard a bunch of theories, including you can't eat the fish when there are so many tourists swimming in the ocean. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this one. Not that the Umbrians are so fond of fish to begin with.

And the quote I excerpted... I could not agree more, but I'm not sure I have much hope.

Have you ever been to a Stu Leonards? It's in Danbury, Ct, but I believe there are more than one. Its a sort of theme park supermarket, where there are large mechanical talking bananas and chickens that are supposed to entertain the children. Its hugely popular and successful. I wound up there last Saturday, thinking as it was on the way home, I could just run in and get some fish. Wrong! The place is set up like a maze so that you must walk completely through the store: aisles filled with massive, steroid vegetables, pre-made everything, a revolting smelling fried food aisle, cackling machines, a hot bar with steaming pans of food that was mobbed with people, a truly frightening display of massive soda bottles. Now oddly, there was a wonderful man behind the fish counter. He was careful and loving with product, but almost seemed ashamed to be in this carnival atmosphere. I left there shaking. Everyone else around me seemed perfectly happy. I'm not sure what the 'moral' of this tale is, but I don't think its a sign that the American public at large has embraced the local purveyor.

[commander]

Mr. Day wrote:

"There is also a point where ingredients are so bad that they aren't worth preparing."

So true. I remember accurately following Escoffier's instructions for braising after making a good stock, also from his instructions. I bought a slab of meat from the supermarket and went to work. After throwing Escoffier's book at it, I ended up with flavorless piece of meat and surprisingly a better stock. So I threw out the meat, froze all but a TB of the stock, and finished the "lesson" by dining on hamburger with a pile of sauteed mushrooms napped with a slight reduction of the stock.

[phaelon56]

Normal everyday people make their rounds at the butcher, the baker, etc. And it’s not a certain privilidged class or food obscessed individual who patronize these establishments. You don't have to go out of your way for these things. I know it’s very hard for small business who deal in perishable goods to survive in the U.S. due to the economic (read: Walmart) climate, and that saddens me.

I think Lucy has zeroed in on a fact that is often left out when discussing how the food situation has come to be where it is in the US. For most of us, living in small to mid and moderately large cities/suburbs, the very process of trying to get foodstuffs from specialty retailers has become a challenge that's difficult toovercome.

By chance, there's an excellent fish vendor on my end of town - I drive by them on my way home from work but they open at 10 AM and close at 6 PM. If I work past 5:30 (happens quite often) there's no way to get there for fish. The problem is exacerbated if looking for good bread or meat. To obtain bread from my favorite artisan baker in town would require me to sacrifice my lunch hour very other day for the sole purpose of driving there, finding parking, getting the bread and getting back to the office before my hour is up. Specialty meats and good Italian imports? The only time I can get to those places is on Saturday unless I choose to sacrifice my remaining lunch hours. We have a local farmers market that open to the public Thursday and Saturday mornings but with our five month long winter and cold spring season, the length of time local produce is available spans bit less than four months - perhaps five if one includes early strawberries and late root vegetables.

I'm not whining and I make the best of it. In my area we're fortunate enough to have Wegman's grocery stores. I haven't been to Stu Leonard's but suspect that, apart from not having mechanical bananas, the two stores have much in common. Yes it's a loud, distracting carnival like atmosphere but I nearly always find someone in the fish, meat or produce departments who knows their stuff and enjoys providing good customer service. Until returning to this area recently and finally gettign a house with a decent kitchen, I cooked only on rare occasions and paid little attention to the quality of the goods. Now that my own activities, not to mention eGullet enhanced awareness, have raised my consciousness.... I'm horrified by the limited selection, medicore quality and lack of employee knowledge I find in other local chains apart from Wegman's. I can only imagine how frustrating it is to live in an area where there are no real quality grocers.

There is light at the end of the tunnel - perhaps not a sea change that will be widespread throughout the masses but one that is becoming more widely available to those who seek it out. CSA (Community Supported Agriculture) is becoming more and more widespread, individual farmer who raise heritage breed poultry, grass fed beef etc,. are finding larger and larger markets for their products (and recognition that the highr price is justified) and artisan bakeries are finding increased support.

I'm no apologist for the wastefulness, corporate greed and indifference to quality that permeates the food distribution system in the US but IMHO it's important for our overseas bretheren to recognize that positive change, albeit slowly, is occurring here. The nature of our economic system, employment culture (i.e. long hours) and the geographic structure of shoppiing and residential life (suburbs predominate - that's not going to change) makes it clear the we'll never see the sort of food utopia many of us would like to live in but with a bit of effort, one can shop, cook and eat well here in the good ol USA.

[pumpernickel]

It is interesting how different the "food realities" are that we in the US are living in. I seem to have been lucky because "here" in CA there are plenty of good local vegetables all year around (although I am suspicious of everything being "organic") , frequent farmer markets and good speciality stores. Actually, upon moving one of my main concerns was that my "food reality" would be pleasant. (After three traumatic weeks in Norwich/England, where I resorted to going to London to buy my bread at Paul's and cheese at Neil's yard...)

And I have to say that my hopes have been surpassed by far. There are some very good farmers that grow heirloom, very tasty vegetables, lots of great seafood, the influence and frequent exposure to Asian, Mexican, Thai etc. cuisine. I even get my beloved sicilian small salt capers and details like that. And I know no better Ciabatta than one of our local bakeries makes! So I seem to be in a much luckier position than most of you.

However, my point was that my way of cooking that I have adapted in Europe didn't work at all with the produce I get here, no matter how good it may be in itself, and I have had to change my style completely. Now I am not a professional cook, although I cook nearly every day. Perhaps a chef would be able to seize the differences in the raw materials quicker and adapt faster? Then again, can you imagine putting, say, Michel Bras in a LA restaurant and expect his cuisine to reach similar heights as in his local Auvergne? My sense of reality prevents me from pretending that my cooking is anywhere near his level of excellence, but the analogy is that I seem to have developped a personal style of cooking that relies very much on the quality (read quidditas) of the produce and that has had to change drastically with the quality of the produce. I was simply amazed at how much that affected my cooking and wanted to know whether you have made similar experiences. Thanks very much for your input, or should I say feedback...

Enjoy!

[John Whiting]

One of the greatest frustrations is for bakers and pastry cooks, who encounter flour in America that just doesn't work with European recipes. One great English pastry chef demonstrating in the US produced a total disaster!

I find it remarkable that Steven Sullivan, who started the remarkable Acme Bakery in Berkeley, was able to model his bread-making on Elizabeth David’s English Bread and Yeast Cookery, which he worked his way straight through.

[bleudauvergne]

You're so right John, I ruined a whole bunch of recipes and continue to do so due to the differences in flour. I'm getting ready to test two of the white cakes with the recipes put on the thread. I'm learning towards the idea that going by weight instead of volume would get me around the major technical difficulties. We'll see how this all turns out! Yikes!

Owen - I know the Wegmans you speak of and they are great. I don't want to give anyone the impression that I think that the U.S. is void of quality products, because I know perfectly well that there are amazing wonderful sources all over the place in the U.S. and that local specialties are also really incredible. Every town I've ever lived in in the U.S. has had a place where you could find fish, a place where you could go to get fruit in season, etc. But I have always had to plan ahead and to drive long distances in order to do so. In Los Angeles it was also extremely difficult not due to the lack of products, but the amount of time a person had to spend to get them, or their astronomical price. Just getting a parking spot in a lot was most times a challenge. When we did make it to the SM farmers Market, we were able to find nice things but our entire weekends were sometimes devoted to hunting/gathering activities which left us exhausted. I don't think it's possible or even desireable for a place to strive to be a one stop source for everything either. I love the hunt, and love the getting to know what a place can offer, too.

Running errands here also involves many stops here in Lyon, but I'll stop at four different places in the span of 20 minutes, for instance. I think my habit of going to great lengths to find the best I could find in the U.S. has followed me here and now I find myself doing more than the average person does - I don't think any of my French friends go to one market on Saturday, another on Wednesday evenings, and Les Halles every other Friday. They also don't take pictures of their food or fill boooks with food notes, or test cakes on Saturdays...

Edited May 8, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)