Mel's New Bakery

[melmck]

THIS JUST IN:

The latest stupid comment by a prospective employee trumps "What do I stir my coffee with?"

"How do I crack an egg?"

[chromedome]

[chiantiglace]

use your forehead

[noambenami]

There are no stupid questions - a real chef would understand that. For example, some folks want me to crack eggs on a flat surface so that there is less of a chance for the shell pieces to come off. Others want me to crack it on a sharp surface for speed. The corollary is that the eggshells drop to the bottom of the container into which they are put and so, when breaking a lot of eggs, the trick is to simply be careful at the end not to pour the pieces. (And then there's the trick of flipping the cake over to look for remaining pieces.)

When an employee asks you a question, that is your chance to tell them not only how you want things done, but how to do things right. Even cracking an egg, in a production environment, requires some knowledge and involves any number of tricks.

Mentorship not only improves your employees, it keeps them around longer, and is one of the things that separates "chefs" from "cooks."

[tan319]

There are no stupid questions - a real chef would understand that. For example, some folks want me to crack eggs on a flat surface so that there is less of a chance for the shell pieces to come off. Others want me to crack it on a sharp surface for speed. The corollary is that the eggshells drop to the bottom of the container into which they are put and so, when breaking a lot of eggs, the trick is to simply be careful at the end not to pour the pieces. (And then there's the trick of flipping the cake over to look for remaining pieces.)

When an employee asks you a question, that is your chance to tell them not only how you want things done, but how to do things right. Even cracking an egg, in a production environment, requires some knowledge and involves any number of tricks.

Mentorship not only improves your employees, it keeps them around longer, and is one of the things that separates "chefs" from "cooks."

←

A great response!

.

Well said

[chefpeon]

Then I suppose the better worded question would be,

"How would you like me to crack that egg, sir?"

"How do I crack an egg?" is indeed laughable. And I would not hesitate to have a good

chuckle (in their presence) before I answered the question civilly and diplomatically.

Then I would go in my office and bang my head on the wall.

[noambenami]

I absolutely guarantee that the question was on the lines of an inquiry of how Mel would like the person to most efficiently and cleanly crack eggs.

[jgarner53]

There is definitely a difference in tone between Anne's two variations, and even if the employee had asked, "How do YOU crack an egg?" (meaning that he/she is asking for the point of clarity, not out of outright stupidity).

Whenever I have a question to ask, I always try to phrase it such that it's at least somewhat apparent that I'm asking because I want to do things the way the person I'm working with wants them done, not because I don't know how. I might have my own methodology, but they might have discovered some trick of production that I don't know (being new to production) or have a specific way they want something done.

[chefpeon]

I might have my own methodology, but they might have discovered some trick of production that I don't know (being new to production) or have a specific way they want something done.

Exactly right, jg! Way back when, my pastry instructor told us, "I want you to know, I'm

teaching you 'Darrell's Way' but that's not the ONLY way. Whatever way your employer

wants you to do it, is the way you should do it. Learning does not end here."

Other comments:

Generally I agree that the only stupid question, is the one not asked.

BUT.

Having been in this biz as long as I have, and with as many employees as I've had to

deal with, I would say, actually, YES, there IS such a thing as a stupid question. I've had

to answer them. In 100% of all cases, if the person had just stopped to think for a moment,

they would have (should have) had the answer themselves.

I'm not real big on hiring people that I have to babysit all the time.

[noambenami]

I'm not real big on hiring people that I have to babysit all the time.

How long do you work with them before you decide that they'll need babysitting rather than some initial mentoring? There's a huge difference between the two.

[JSkilling]

I suspect Melissa's been around long enough to know the difference between mentoring a good employee and not wasting her time on a dumbass. Sorry, but there are many stupid questions and most of all stupid phrasing in an interview with a potential employer. I'd love to hear the rest of the context of this but I can guarantee you that I'd have shown that one the door just on instinct alone. What bugs me the most about the question is the feeling that every task will be met by "how do you want me to do xxx?" And that's why it was such a dumb statement on the part of the potential employee because it set her up to fail. It's great when we want to root for the underdog, but there are occasions where they are underdogs for a reason.

And she's working 100 hours a week! The reality of the situation is she needs to make quick judgments as to who will fit in and not require hand holding to get to a production point.

More power to you, Melissa. I couldn't do this!!

[chromedome]

Context is key, for sure. Any question can sound dumb when taken out of context. Having said this, I'm sure Mel's done enough interviews to know who's asking an intelligent question (albeit badly) and who's just a dumbass.

Mentoring vs babysitting?

I hire and train the pizza person at my day job. The current one is a young woman who started with us as a cashier in the area she now runs. We moved her to a different spot with some prep duties and greater responsibility; and eventually gave her the current assignment (that's where I started, in fact). She had no cooking experience, and needed some assistance during the first few weeks, but she's settled in and does a better job than anybody we've had in there since me (he says modestly). That's mentoring.

One of her predecessors, on the other hand, came in with lots of experience. Didn't matter, he was a chucklehead. During the six weeks he was there, I never went two days in a row without having to jump in and help him out. Anything...and I mean anything that took him out of his routine was a major crisis. That's babysitting, and I don't have time for it.

[Patricia Austin]

Thinking back to my earlier years of running a bakery and having a dozen employees the thing that made me crazy was not the occassional poorly thought out question but the lack of questioning. I'd rather have someone speak than stand around waiting and silent like a piece of furniture gathering dust. The employees who did not speak up or step up took so much energy. Initiative is an invaluable quality in the workplace.

[chefpeon]

How long do you work with them before you decide that they'll need babysitting rather than some initial mentoring? There's a huge difference between the two.

In addition to what jskilling and chromedome said, my reply to your question is "maybe 2 hours".

One very important piece of advice I'd give to ANYONE in this biz is to always "audition" your potential employees. My interview process has two steps......the interview, and the audition.

I invite them to come in and work with me (or my crew) for a couple of hours, paid. It's

pretty amazing how quickly you can figure out if what they said in the interview jives with

how knowledgeable they are in the kitchen. They talk the talk, but do they walk the walk?

I've weeded out many a BS'er that way. On the other side, when I interview for a job, I ALWAYS

offer to audition for my employer, which impresses them. Only a few have taken me up on it,

but the ones that have usually hired me on the spot.

Also, sad to say, I've never been in the position where I can afford to mentor a person that has little experience. I know I was there once, and someone gave me a break, but I've always

needed someone to come in and "rock and roll" right away.

Given what we've read in Mel's blog here, we certainly know she doesn't need to be hiring someone who's gonna be asking "How do I crack an egg?", no matter what the context.

Edited April 12, 2005 by chefpeon (log)

[noambenami]

Given what we've read in Mel's blog here, we certainly know she doesn't need to be hiring someone who's gonna be asking "How do I crack an egg?", no matter what the context.

Agreed, but if she brings in people with no experience, I find it rather ludicrous that she doesn't like them asking questions. I've done hiring interviews for over ten years, and the only thing that pisses me off is when people who are inexperienced try to cover that inexperience. Ask me questions, show me that you are interested and want to learn.

Anyone can crack eggs. I'd like an employee to ask me how to do it - in the right context, it shows that they want to be as efficient and clean as possible. In my first serious job, everyone who came in got paired up with someone senior who introduced them around and made sure they settled in well. Invariably, the person I was paired with became my most important mentor.

Frankly, I'd bet that one reason Mel is working so hard is because she hasn't mentored and managed her people appropriately, and has hired the wrong folks.

Hopefully for her, she'll figure out her HR problems before she runs herself into the ground!

[chefpeon]

Frankly, I'd bet that one reason Mel is working so hard is because she hasn't mentored and managed her people appropriately, and has hired the wrong folks.

Oh my, that's an awfully strong statement.

When you're spread as thin as I believe Mel is, mentoring is probably something she doesn't have a whole lot of time for. I think she's doing as best she can, especially considering the

recent kudos her place has gotten.

One of the catch 22's we face in the biz, is the wage issue. Usually we can't offer the type

of wages that brings in higher quality people, so you're stuck trying to choose from the

best of the worst. I've been there. It's very frustrating.

Edited April 12, 2005 by chefpeon (log)

[melmck]

for crying out loud people, don't lose your sense of humor. sometimes things just strike you a certain way.

"Whenever I have a question to ask, I always try to phrase it such that it's at least somewhat apparent that I'm asking because I want to do things the way the person I'm working with wants them done, not because I don't know how. I might have my own methodology, but they might have discovered some trick of production that I don't know (being new to production) or have a specific way they want something done."

EXACTLY. It's all in the phrasing.

and yes, when you work 120 hours a week, see how it strikes you.

I have had a lot of auditions this weekend, a chance to see who might shine. who's got the hustle, who talks too much, who LISTENS. who listens and absorbs the information for more than 2 minutes.

Here's a challenge for you all, since everyone seems to have exactly the right, perfect advice for every situation. I am sure everone maintains composure under all high stress situations, too.(although Some of you may have thrown reach-in doors that fall off the fridge during service across the room)

One of the auditions this weekend- I asked the person to cut something into 8 pieces. I showed how to hold the knife, how to put it in the hot water and wipe it on the rag, and exactly where to make the cuts. Blank stare. I do it again. She cuts, and there isn't one straight line. I show again. I said, ok, let me see that knife I'll do it one more time. Blank stare, I rephrase - can I have the knife please? blank stare. give me the knife, please. blank stare. GIMME THE GODDAMNED KNIFE!!!!!

so should I have said :

a) GET OUT!

b) no, sweetie, let me hold your hand while you make the cut, we'll get through this - together...somehow...

There were a lot of people who helped make the weekend much smoother for me. THANK YOU!

Some, not so much. It was a tough situation and I needed all the help I could get. It was a perfect chance to see who has 'It'. I loved the people who ask a million questions. They have the detail orientation factor. The perfect person for the job isn't always out there though. I have some amazing employees, and there are always diamonds in the rough. My current dishwasher is making near perfect items for me, and we don't even speak the same language.

I worked with a woman who dumped cases of whole eggs in a mixer w/ a paddle, then strained the shells out. How gross is that? Helllooo, salmonella..... if of course you have a problem with salmonella in your region of the country.

[chefpeon]

Here's a challenge for you all, since everyone seems to have exactly the right, perfect advice for every situation. I am sure everone maintains composure under all high stress situations, too.(although Some of you may have thrown reach-in doors that fall off the fridge during service across the room)

One of the auditions this weekend- I asked the person to cut something into 8 pieces. I showed how to hold the knife, how to put it in the hot water and wipe it on the rag, and exactly where to make the cuts. Blank stare. I do it again. She cuts, and there isn't one straight line. I show again. I said, ok, let me see that knife I'll do it one more time. Blank stare, I rephrase - can I have the knife please? blank stare. give me the knife, please. blank stare. GIMME THE GODDAMNED KNIFE!!!!!

so should I have said :

a) GET OUT!

b) no, sweetie, let me hold your hand while you make the cut, we'll get through this - together...somehow...

Um, I choose "A" most definitely. Kudos to you Mel, for even having the patience to show

her twice!

[tan319]

Don't you think that the main thing that keeps bringing this blog back to this subject of "what morons people are' who work in the food business is this attitude of disdain for most people?

I can totally understand noahbenami's take on what was said and actually, when he/she said there are different ways to do something as simple as crack an egg, it really crystallized for me.

For one thing, anybody I've ever worked for absolutely hates a new hire just doing stuff like the last person they worked for did, without even asking about procedure.

It's a great way to get your ass chewed on.

It's also a sign of respect to ask people how they want it done, even if you think their recipe sucks.

What if I would have assumed that the French guy I worked for made his brioche in the classic French way I make mine, which is not the way he does it at all?

Or the executive pastry chef I work with now, do you think he would not be kind of miffed if I didn't at least inquire about a procedure for something of his that I'm making?

I would be pissed.

Most of the chefs I've worked for REALLY believe in the "THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS" rule.

Two weeks ago the chef I'm working for at the moment, who's a two time James Beard award winner, amongst other's, the real thing, told about forty five people he had just hired that very phrase. And he meant it.

At the moment I'm working with 90% Spanish speaking, 'English is barely my second language' type people who work their asses off to always do things right and do a great job and I have to BEG them to ask me questions because they would never want to, it would make them look weak. Or stupid. To their minds.

It's stupid to think that asking a question is stupid.

It seems that a lot of you people who work in the bakery side of this biz, where you are always trying to keep up with this unrelenting demand for product, which is almost impossible to keep up with, which means you have to work these 100 hour weeks or more,

have the worst attitude about people!

Which is probably why you're always looking for new hires.

Who do you expect is going to come walking thru the door to work for 6, 7, 8 bucks an hour, for the most part?

A Harvard grad?

A Ducasse alum?

We all know better then that.

It's a grind, a bakery, that either you have to really really love, or you have to really really need the money, which was my reason for working in the one I was in.

I don't really believe there is an in between on this.

And we've all become conditioned, in a way, to think that 8 bucks an hour isn't that bad for what they do.

8 bucks an hour is the new 5.50, believe it.

Mel is working 100 hours a week or more because it's her business, not because someone may ask"how do YOU crack an egg"?

"Also, sad to say, I've never been in the position where I can afford to mentor a person that has little experience. I know I was there once, and someone gave me a break, but I've always

needed someone to come in and "rock and roll" right away."

That is sad to say...

Edited April 12, 2005 by tan319 (log)

[chiantiglace]

Man, whats wrong with you guys. Who cares? honestly it's a joke lets not try to make wisdom out of a goof.

This situation is an example of a stupid question. She wouldn't ask how to crack an egg if she thought there was a better way because it's something so simple she should automatically take the initiative. I would rather have an emplyee start something wrong straight out then waste 20 minutes trying to get help. Thats the point of mentoring, you notice there not doing something the best way so you go show them a better way. I've had many chefs walk up to me and show me knew tricks to do things, but I started them the best way I new how first and then they bettered me. It's not like tempering chocolate, if you don't know you ask. This is cracking an egg, if you have not cracked an egg why are you in a bakery at all. This post does not need to be analyized.

People say stupid things all the time, I just don't answer them. 30 seconds later they figure it out and expand there mind at the same time. There really are stupid questions and you can't call someone stupid just because they asked a stupid question. People ask me all the time where something is or "have I seen the..." and it will be right in front of there face. You get a lot going on and your mind isn't focusing.

And yes I think people can ask too many questions. I use to be so. I've had a few shefs tell me to shut up just from exhaustion of answering. I mean you can abuse it. You really have to break your questions down and train yourself sometimes, it's better for everyone that way. If I get a guy who asks me how to start something and guidelines and goes and does it decently whatever it may be, thats who I want working with me. But if I get a guy that needs play by play action well then his logistics aren't the most supportive and he needs to focus more. I like people who are enthusiastic and will jump into anything trained or not. If they are clueless they'll ask me to help and if I notice there struggling it's my job to step in and support them. A bird that jumps out of the nest is better than a bird thats needs to be pushed.

Edited April 12, 2005 by chiantiglace (log)

[tan319]

You're probably right, CG, it's just that general air of "look at what moron the wind just blew in" that always get's me.

[tan319]

Maybe a solution to the 120 hour weeks and frustrations.

Showing somebody how to cut something into 8 pieces on an asskicking saturday or sunday when everything is barely holding together doesn't seem too efficient.

Why not pay top dollar to some certified pros, really put out the feelers and find them?

It's hard to believe it may not pay off big even if it's a formidible expense, being that you're getting clobbered at the moment.

Also, would it be a good idea, if you found some people you trust, to have production going on in a semi graveyard shift, like from when you close to when you come in?

7 or 8 pm to 3 am?

Maybe it would make the workload less in some areas?

[alligande]

First if we cant have giggle at a stupid question isnt the world becoming rather boring, come on the kitchen world is not exactly PC. Secondly, Guys when its your dollar that is paying for "mentoring" you have a diffrent attitude, I to have bought along dishwashers, servers etc who really wanted to learn, but you know these people and can see something, When you need to hire for a particular position, as Anne said they have to rock and roll. Ted, when the margins are tight, hire those seasoned pros just doesn't work, because the budget isnt going to stretch.

Karen

[Wendy DeBord]

Ted just hit on something I think if VERY important. Hiring a skilled worker right this second IS the investment you MUST take if your really serious about making it. Rarely is this done........"we can't afford it"! I personally think that's the death of most Mom & Pop bakeries.

The facts are, this is the time to put your VERY VERY BEST out there. If you blow it will kill your future business and not continue your growth and success. Your best investment isn't your equipment it's your employees using the equipment.

One professional can do the work of MANY! I'd much rather pay one professional then pay 3 completely unskilled workers. If worse came to worse I'd offer them some sort of incentive in addition to wages up front. This isn't about stretching a non-existant budget.........NO.........it's equal to making your first investment into you business. It will make or break your business and you personally!

[SethG]

Hey, let's cut Mel a little slack, okay? This thread has been brilliant because she's let us into her world in an unfiltered way. (Or at least, it seems unfiltered. God knows what she's REALLY thinking!) Part of what she should get from us is the right to blow off steam without getting flack for having a bad attitude.

I'm not a pastry chef, and I think many of you guys give excellent advice. Advice is good, but telling her she should stop hating people so much, or that she must be a bad mentor, seems out of line to me.