I Guess I like Frozen Sushi

[tommy]

The quantity from Japan doesn't amount to much in the scheme of things. Robyn

although it might to the type of people who read and contribute to egullet. you see, we're not the average hick.

[mongo_jones]

the funny thing about this whole story is the very strong possibility that we've all been had for some time now. i wonder how many professional sushi snobs, i mean gourmets have been eating super-frozen fish for years while holding forth on the obvious differences between fresh fish and any kind of refrigerated fish. if you think about it that way there really is a lot more at stake here than whether the fish is in fact safe for us or not, or whether this represents more misguided food paranoia.

what next, those old-school japanese sushi chefs are actually from bhutan? and go to a special sushi-finishing school to learn how to yell in japanese at customers as they enter and leave restaurants?

edited to fix typo

Edited April 10, 2004 by mongo_jones (log)

[Mayhaw Man]

Even if the average person in the US only eats a pound of sushi a year (and I suspect it's more - you can't find a supermarket anywhere that doesn't sell it - and every hick town has a couple of sushi restaurants)

Actually, if you got out and did a survey of all the "hicks" that live near you I believe that you would find that they wouldn't touch raw fish with a stick or anything that even looked like sushi. Look at the average "hick" sushi joint, there might be fifteen seats at the sushi bar and another thirty of forty at tabletops. They would have to be moving the "hicks" in and out of there pretty fast to get up to speed on you percieved average. You need more chairs than that to serve all of the 'Hick" diners in any given area.

I believe that the reality is that people who love sushi eat plenty of it and keep these "hick" places open (call them "enlightened, educated, well traveled hicks") , but that there are plenty of "hicks" out there who never touch the stuff and I also believe that there are more "hicks" than there are people who spend their time seeking out good sushi or even just garden variety california rolls.

I believe that the average person eats no sushi. Not even a roll. Get out and ask some "hicks", they'll tell you. I see them up close and personal everyday. Some close friends, some work for me, and some are aquaintances, but I don't care where you go in this country-the average rural American is not sitting down to toro and sake for his favorite dining out choice.

[mongo_jones]

I don't care where you go in this country-the average rural American is not sitting down to toro and sake for his favorite dining out choice.

nor getting their steak anything close to rare

[Mayhaw Man]

I don't care where you go in this country-the average rural American is not sitting down to toro and sake for his favorite dining out choice.

nor getting their steak anything close to rare

Not unless it is a mistake. Then it's going back to the kitchen for more burning.

[johnnyd]

the funny thing about this whole story is the very strong possibility that we've all been had for some time now. i wonder how many professional sushi snobs, i mean gourmets have been eating super-frozen fish for years while holding forth on the obvious differences between fresh fish and any kind of refrigerated fish. if you think about it that way there really is a lot more at stake here than whether the fish is in fact safe for us or not, or whether this represents more misguided food paranoia.

It would be safe to assume that mid-tier SushiBars use the less expensive frozen grades and peddle it as fresh to the unsuspecting americans. If I've been eating once-frozen maguro and toro sometimes, I'm not going to quible if it tastes good and the place is honest. Naturally I prefer the freshest possible so I patiently wait for the appropriate season. Our sea-side sushi places take full advantage of seasonal hauls in to port so I KNOW it's fresh:

Scallops (Hotate): Nov.15 - Apr.15

Shrimp (ami-ebe): Jan 15 - Mar.1

Urchins (Uni): Oct.1 - Mar.1

Tuna: Jun.1 - Sep.1

These change slightly per year but the place I frequent puts the location next to the sushi special so when urchin season ends, the uni starts coming from chile, etc. When Shrimp season (UNfrozen, my friends... and sublime) is over, they take it off the menu 'til next year. Some items, like herring roe, come from Japan.

Once I bit into my Ankimo (Monkfish liver) and my teeth froze: it was like this crazy fishy ice cream. I blew a gasket at the chef who whipped up a nice yam/ikura dish...

[Fat Guy]

I think there's a basic problem with the definition of the word "sushi." Especially as it relates to the New York Times piece, what do they mean when they say sushi? The Merriam-Webster definition, which is probably correct insofar as how English-speakers with a certain degree of culinary knowledge most often use the word when they're trying to be precise, is "cold rice dressed with vinegar, formed into any of various shapes, and garnished especially with bits of raw fish or shellfish." But there's a more casual usage of the word, which would for example include sashimi as part of the definition of sushi. And there's an implication, also in common usage, that there's sushi and there's sushi -- in other words that a cucumber roll is sushi but not sushi, because it doesn't contain fish, and that a California roll is sushi but not sushi, because it doesn't contain raw fish, and that sashimi tuna is sushi but not sushi, because it's a Japanese-derived raw fish dish but it doesn't contain any vinegared rice.

[Mayhaw Man]

I think there's a basic problem with the definition of the word "sushi."

So what the hell are we talking about?

When I think of sushi, I am thinking of sashimi or nigiri, although I think that as far as my "hick" diatribe goes that I was speaking of pretty much the whole generic sushi joint menu (rolls, cooked eel, fake crabmeat, roe, omelettes, sashimi of any sort, the whole nine yards).

I stand by me premise that the average person in this country won't touch the stuff and that most of the people populating this website have a warped view of what Joe Lunchbucket (thanks Mr. Burns) eats when he has the expendable income and the time spend it.

Barbara Hansen of the LA Times has an interesting piece about a very nice website that makes for some interesting reading on the various types of sushi. That LA Times food section is some piece of work.

[Bux]

I think there's a basic problem with the definition of the word "sushi." Especially as it relates to the New York Times piece, what do they mean when they say sushi? The Merriam-Webster definition, which is probably correct insofar as how English-speakers with a certain degree of culinary knowledge most often use the word when they're trying to be precise, is "cold rice dressed with vinegar, formed into any of various shapes, and garnished especially with bits of raw fish or shellfish." But there's a more casual usage of the word, which would for example include sashimi as part of the definition of sushi. And there's an implication, also in common usage, that there's sushi and there's sushi -- in other words that a cucumber roll is sushi but not sushi, because it doesn't contain fish, and that a California roll is sushi but not sushi, because it doesn't contain raw fish, and that sashimi tuna is sushi but not sushi, because it's a Japanese-derived raw fish dish but it doesn't contain any vinegared rice.

There's no problem with the definition of the word. There's a problem with the misconceptions held by Americans. Sushi refers to the vinegared rice. A simple tamgo (egg) on sushi rice nigiri style meets the full definition of sushi. A slice of raw fish all by itself is sashimi and doesn't meet the definition of sushi. Many people will opt to have sashimi at a sushi bar. So what? It's not that I'm a purist in terms of either correct sushi making or language usage, but there's really no point in trying to communicate if we allow the words to have any meaning and therefore no meaning. We need to be able to recognize other people's mistakes so we can attempt to understand them, but should we promote the misuse of food terms on eGullet?

Edit: but we should promote the misuse of food terms on eGullet. was edited to read but should we promote the misuse of food terms on eGullet? Thanks to mongo_jones for his sharp eyes and ability to recognize other people's mistakes and understand them.

Edited April 11, 2004 by Bux (log)

[Fat Guy]

So is there no Japanese equivalent of the phrases "sushi bar" and "let's go out for sushi"? Because in both of those uses, the term has got to include more than just the rice-based items.

[Bux]

When I think of sushi, I am thinking of sashimi or nigiri, although I think that as far as my "hick" diatribe goes that I was speaking of pretty much the whole generic sushi joint menu (rolls, cooked eel, fake crabmeat, roe, omelettes, sashimi of any sort, the whole nine yards).

I stand by me premise that the average person in this country won't touch the stuff and that most of the people populating this website have a warped view of what Joe Lunchbucket (thanks Mr. Burns)

Nigiri is a form of sushi. Sashimi is not, although it may be ordered at a sushi bar. A sashimi course will usually play a role in a fine Japanese meal. Sushi will usually not appear, except at a sushi bar.

Nikki Gilbert, as quoted by Barbara Hansen in the LA Times:  "Anybody know the definition of sushi?" she asks the class. The answer is vinegared rice, not raw fish. "'Su' is vinegar.  'Shi' is rice. Cut-up fish is just sashimi."

When it comes to sushi, or sashimi for that matter, I strongly suspect that the overwhelming majority of Americans, including those "hicks" in the "sticks," have access to raw fish as prepared by a Japanese chef. Having such access is not the same as actually trying it, which in turn is hardly the same as eating it with any regularity. Proximity to a sushi bar is no guarantee one has had raw fish.

[mongo_jones]

Proximity to a sushi bar is no guarantee one has had raw fish.

nor apparently that one has had "fresh" fish.

by the way, bux, was this a typo: "but we should promote the misuse of food terms on eGullet" ?

[Mayhaw Man]

Nigiri is a form of sushi. Sashimi is not, although it may be ordered at a sushi bar. A sashimi course will usually play a role in a fine Japanese meal. Sushi will usually not appear, except at a sushi bar.

Bux,

I agree with you completely. I was only pointing out what I think of when one uses the generic term "sushi". I do believe, however, that Steven is correct when he says-

But there's a more casual usage of the word, which would for example include sashimi as part of the definition of sushi. And there's an implication, also in common usage, that there's sushi and there's sushi -- in other words that a cucumber roll is sushi but not sushi, because it doesn't contain fish, and that a California roll is sushi but not sushi, because it doesn't contain raw fish, and that sashimi tuna is sushi but not sushi, because it's a Japanese-derived raw fish dish but it doesn't contain any vinegared rice.

[Mabelline]

Just to add my hick-ish vote in here. The seafood I get is from a small grocer who gets it overnight from the Pacific. I pay a premium price. But I have been a hick fisherman down on the Brazos for many years, and anyone thinking fish has not got worms if they can not see them is barking up empty trees, I assure you. Does no one remember the fish diseases that were epidemic in California in the early 80's? Worms and intestinal parasites. Killing folks. But us folks out in Hicktown can still get sushi. I do not care if it's ocean-frozen if it tastes good; my favorites are anemone and sea bass. I'll eat eel, but I close my eyes. Mussels, scallops, SEA FOOD is good stuff.

And you might be surprised at how many of us eat charred rare steaks. After all, we raised them.

The hicks quote is unfortunate, mainly because there's no one in this day and time who have access to the internet, that you can call a hick. We are here and our name is CONSUMER...

[mongo_jones]

And you might be surprised at how many of us eat charred rare steaks. After all, we raised them.

touche mabelline--actually most of the really-well-done steak crowd i'm thinking of hailed from big cities in the midwest.

[Mabelline]

Thanks, Mongo, I tell ya, you might be surprised if I introduced you to the new generation of 'the good ol' boys'. We are onto food trends a lot more than you'd think, and we do know where our bread is buttered.

Yep, the incinerated meat is basically oldtimers.

[robyn]

The quantity from Japan doesn't amount to much in the scheme of things.  Robyn

although it might to the type of people who read and contribute to egullet. you see, we're not the average hick.

Well - the point I was replying to was that there was some kind of cultural bias here because rules were applied to Japanese fish and not to non-Japanese fish. I don't think that's the case (since most of our sushi is probably from farm-raised frozen south American fish).

By the way - as a person in New York (you - not me) - I wouldn't get too stuck up about sushi in general in New York. Frozen or not - it is indeed better (in general) on the west coast - and the best place to eat it in the US (in my opinion) is in restaurants in Hawaii which cater to a Japanese clientele. That's not to say that New York doesn't have some fine restaurants. It's just that I don't consider New York to be a destination sushi city. Robyn

[robyn]

I don't think there's such a thing as farm-raised tuna. But presumably almost all salmon used for sushi is farm-raised, with the exception of super-premium stuff served at the very top level of sushi restaurant. What would be the other most popular species used in sushi? Yellowtail? I don't think you can farm that. Uni is always wild, right? Shrimp would be mostly farmed (and cooked). Squid wild. Etc. The fake crab stuff comes from ocean-caught things, I think -- though that's not raw. Eel is also always cooked. For the purposes of this discussion, I think we're talking about raw fish only.

Here's another interesting issue when it comes to sushi. Apart from whether it's fresh or frozen - how do you know what you're eating? We can all identify salmon - or shrimp - or tuna. But you mention yellowtail. Real yellowtail isn't easy to come by because of its limited geographical area and its seasonality.

Now yellowtail is a form of snapper. I have been eating a lot of fish for a long time. And I don't think I could tell the difference between a yellowtail snapper fillet and the fillet of a half dozen other species of snapper. I sure couldn't tell the difference if I were eating 2 square inches on a chunk of sushi rice with a bunch of soy sauce.

And when it comes to fresh/frozen - how old do you think any yellowtail would be by the time it got to New York. Absolute minimum of 3 days in my opinion. 4 or 5 is more likely. And what would it taste like if it weren't frozen? Robyn

[Bux]

So is there no Japanese equivalent of the phrases "sushi bar" and "let's go out for sushi"? Because in both of those uses, the term has got to include more than just the rice-based items.

What's the English equivalent of "steak house" and "let's go out for a hamburger?" Steak houses usually serve salad, potato, desserts and often enough, a lobster or two. When we go out for a hamburger, we often get fries and possible any number of other things to eat and drink at the hamburger place. A good sushi place should be expected to have some impeccable raw fish and a chef with a talent for slicing, (that's one of the marks of a good sushi chef) thus it doesn't seem unreasonable to order sashimi there.

[bleachboy]

I believe that the average person eats no sushi. Not even a roll. Get out and ask some "hicks", they'll tell you. I see them up close and personal everyday. Some close friends, some work for me, and some are aquaintances, but I don't care where you go in this country-the average rural American is not sitting down to toro and sake for his favorite dining out choice.

I second that opinion. I know of nobody in my immediate family (my wife and I excluded) that would ever dream of eating sushi. I do have a lot of friends who like sushi, though, but they aren't "hicks". Most of the "hicks" I talk to won't eat any sort of meat (even beef!) that's not well done.

[Mabelline]

While all that may be true, I can guarantee you that their kids are not hidebound in tradition. As I said, the Internet has vastly opened up the world (I still believe that the Wall fell down because the youngsters were able to see MTV), but as far as fishing and processing product goes, what the hey!, do you think sushi in a remote location will be worse, and that we'd not notice? Give me a break...you are talking to a person who's probably caught more fish than you'll ever hope to see in your lifetime, and used them as the food they are. The average rural folks don't eat sushi, given, but that's not to say they wouldn't try it. I just detest a hasty generalisation--sp--for driving home a point.

[torakris]

some how I missed the whole second page of this thread....

A couple things, way back a couple days ago "wa" was mentioned, the best English word I can think for this is "harmony" and this Japanese chef though he may believe in what he was saying may also at the same time be trying to "pacify" the American sushi "fanatics". In Japan, Americans are often viewed as getting riled up about the silliest things and I am sure most Japanese people who eat sushi with out without giving a *?#@* if it was previously or not get a kick out of watching them get all hysterical about these kind of things.

The vast majority of tuna in Japan is frozen and I don't believe there has ever been a fuss about it......

sushi, if it doesn't have vinegared rice it is not sushi.

Most sushi bars in Japan also sell sashimi and soups and simmered dishes and deep fried dishes, though there are some that are sushi only and most delivery sushi places I know are only sushi nothing else on the menu. The Japanese do not make a distinction between these kinds of places. "let's go out for sushi" in Japan could mean just sushi or more depending on how much and what they feel like eating......

[torakris]

oh and I forgot, there are some types of farmed tuna, from the Daily Nihongo thread:

word for 4/1:

養殖

ようしょく

youshoku

Farmed

This seems to be the new thing for tuna now, apparently the wild tuna are caught and then held in cages to fatten them up. This increased fat content makes them more desirable for sushi. I have been noticing this label popping up quite a bit recently on packs of tuna, mostly from the Mediterranean.

There are a lot of protests against this type of farming though.....

http://www.eurocbc.org/page809.html

[Mayhaw Man]

While all that may be true, I can guarantee you that their kids are not hidebound in tradition. As I said, the Internet has vastly opened up the world (I still believe that the Wall fell down because the youngsters were able to see MTV), but as far as fishing and processing product goes, what the hey!, do you think sushi in a remote location will be worse, and that we'd not notice? Give me a break...you are talking to a person who's probably caught more fish than you'll ever hope to see in your lifetime, and used them as the food they are. The average rural folks don't eat sushi, given, but that's not to say they wouldn't try it. I just detest a hasty generalisation--sp--for driving home a point.

Agreed, and if we have an eGulleteers Bass Masters Classic I want you in the boat.

My point, way on up there (besides I was annoyed by the rediculous name calling and stereotyping that certain less broad minded members seem to resort to when they are trying to make a point) is that there is no way that the sushi consumption in this country adds up to a pound per head for every man, woman, and child in this country as I don't believe that anywhere close to a majority ever touch the stuff. I WAS NOT saying that they wouldn't eat it, hell I live in a part of the country where offal is a regular and honored part of the cultural food heritage and a place where all classes of people enjoy a crustacean that lives in ditches and eats dead stuff. I certainly believe that with the right exposure and with the right availability you could get some of these people to eat something as simple and some rice with a hunk of fish on top.

I am probably a pretty good case in point. I did not eat a bite of the stuff until I was 23 and had just moved to New Orleans. I happened to work right around the corner from the first sushi joint in town and went in there with some more enlightened individuals (thinking back on it, this story proves my point about anybody who is exposed to the stuff will probably like it-the guy I was with was frim West Point, MS and while he is still one of my best friends and a bright and well educated guy he can still pretty easily be described as a "redneck")and they showed me the joys of raw stuff served well. Within a week sushi became my go to meal when I was in a hurry on the way to work and I wanted a quick snack. I love the stuff now, the stranger the better, bring it on. I think most people in this country would be the same way, given the chance.

A couple things, way back a couple days ago "wa" was mentioned, the best English word I can think for this is "harmony" and this Japanese chef though he may believe in what he was saying may also at the same time be trying to "pacify" the American sushi "fanatics". In Japan, Americans are often viewed as getting riled up about the silliest things and I am sure most Japanese people who eat sushi with out without giving a *?#@* if it was previously or not get a kick out of watching them get all hysterical about these kind of things

I knew you would find this. I'm with you and as far as sushi goes I pretty much feel like the Japanese described in your post. I just want the stuff to taste good and to be good for me. That seems like a pretty simple thing and most of the time my experience with sushi has left me pretty satisfied that I have acheived both of those goals.

[Steve Klc]

Further discussion of where to find the "best" sushi and which coast does it "better," here, in General:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=40701&st=0

Let's keep this thread focused on the article and its ramifications.