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ADNY (Alain Ducasse @ Essex House)


Fat Guy x

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Admin: the archived thread with discussion of ADNY under Christian Delouvrier as chef de cuisine may be found here. The discussion thread for ADNY under chef de cuisine Tony Esnault may be found here.

This thread continues the Ducasse discussion that originated in the "Tako the Octopus" thread.

Quote: from Christopher on 12:55 am on July 17, 2001

ADNY recieved a thrashing when in 1st opened and Shaw was the only food writer with enough sense to tune out the din and pay attention to what was there.

I don't recall any recent critical writings on the place and as someone who ate there when it was just six nights old I found it fantastic and worth it.

There were plenty of writers who liked the place. There just weren't any willing to admit it, for fear of being labeled snobs. That's the real scandal. Those are the people I place in the absolute lowest category of cowardice. And there are still precious few American journalists who will say a good word on Ducasse's behalf.

When I meet new people and they learn I write food, they usually say three things: 1) "Really? How come I've never heard of you?" 2) "Okay, so what's the best restaurant?" 3) "Oh, that Ducasse place is awful, isn't it? All the critics said it was."

Meanwhile, when I meat actual, agenda-free, restaurant-savvy consumers who have dined at Ducasse's restaurant -- even ones who dined there in the first week -- they tend to rave about the place. Apparently, only the press managed to perceive it as an affront.

-----

Steven A. Shaw

www.fat-guy.com

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Some people do not, can not, or are not willing to have a good time at any restaurant fancier than a TGI Fridays. A lot of those people are in the so called food press. Fat Guy I'm surprised you waste your time trying to convince them otherwise. Honorable but futile.

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In today’s NYT’s Diner’s Journal, Grimes gives Alain Ducasse’s ๑ prix fixe lunch (available Thursdays and Fridays) a very good write up. Salad, choice of three mains and seven desserts. Includes glass of wine and mignardises (sweets, I believe. I’m unsure how they differ from petis fours—anyone?). Maybe the tide in turning.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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It's petits fours and yes mignardises are sweets. From the French dictionary, petits = small  and four = oven. Petits fours are little cakes or cookies or any little thing out of the oven. A mingardise is an affectation in French. It's not a great stretch of the imagination to understand how the term became synonymous with the little candies that come from a great confiserie or at the end of a meal in a very fine restaurant. I've tended to think of the baked goods as petits fours and the chcoclates as mingardises but I'm not sure the last is limited to non-baked little affectations.

(Edited by Bux at 5:48 pm on Aug. 5, 2001)

(Edited by Bux at 5:50 pm on Aug. 5, 2001)

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

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Unfortuantely, my wife recieved such substandard treatment at Alain Ducasse in Paris last year that indeed, we are still angry.

My meal was otherworldly.  She's a vegetarian and we faxed a month ahead, and they said they would be glad to accomodate her. Her's started off fabulously , from the menu, asparagus hot and cold, put then when she had to go off the menu (no vegetarian entrees), she got peas and carrots a la Green Giant.  Of course, they were fresh, but no imagination, no sauce, no care, no interest in pleasing her.  The maitre d' was condescendingly sympathetic in an infuriating way - yes it's a shame to have to be a vegetarian.

beachfan

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This is a subject of such broad significance that it may rate a separate thread. It may be a subject that has been discussed to death, but certainly not to any conclusion. I'm generally inclined to advise diners to go to restaurants that serve the kind of food they like. If you don't eat fish and seafood, you don't go to Le Bernardin. If you don't like red meat, you don't go to Peter Lugar. I suspect there are many restaurants best avoided by vegetarians as the kitchen is not adept or prepared to offer an interesting selection of vegetarian dishes. In this specific case, the diner made advance enquiry and took what I would consider the necessary precaution. When a restaurant of Ducasse's caliber says they would be glad to accomodate you, I would assume they mean in their style.

I mentioned an incredible meal at El Bulli in another thread. Fish and seafood dishes usually predominate in their very long and intricate tasting menu. One member in our party of six, has an allergy to fish and seafood. We noted this when we reserved, saying we'd like to have the tasting menu which is served generally only for the whole table. When arrived we were asked if we wanted the tasting menu. We said "but one of us is a vegetarian." In what may have been the only moment of condescension that afternoon, the waiter replied, "Yes, we know that." from that point on, every course, every little hors d'oeuvre or tidbit of seafood that arrived for us, was accompanied by a meat or vegetable preparation that was prepared with equal care and with no less complexity for our friend. There was nary a bit that was in any way inferior to the chef's most special dishes on our menu. Having accepted your reservation as noted, I see no excuse for Ducasse's restaurant not to have had at least one interesting offering on hand for a main course.

I'm not ready to condem them on this one report. There are many things I don't know. For one thing, I have my doubts that even a preparation of nothing but carrots and peas at Ducasse is likely to resemble Green Giant canned or frozen vegetables. Another question I'll ask is did you consider ordering two appetizers or what the French call entrees. Frequently restaurants in France have vegetable preparations as a first course, but courses in France are usually far less set than in the U.S. One can take any number of combinations making for as long and large a meal as one wants. (Looking at the current Ducasse/Paris web site, I see only one vegetarian plate on a rather short carte.) Perhaps it's a matter of miscommunication, but as a world class restaurant they have some obligation to understand requests and to be clear about their response. Have you expressed your disappointment to them?

On the whole, it's been my observation that vegatables take a back seat in French haute cuisine restaurant, expecially in France. Moreover, most recipes for vegetable seem to call for meat stocks and jus. There are notable exceptions, but it's a fact of life. Have you had better success at other restaurants in Paris? I suspect many people would like that information.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Regarding choosing two appetizers; my wife often does that, she's a light eater.  There was one vegetarian appetizer, asparagus two ways.  It was heavenly.  My wife went from cloud nine to the basement in a very short time.

The poetic license I took in comparing the style and look of peas and carrots to the cafeteria version in the US was perhaps overreaching with respect to quality, but right on with repect to imagination.  Presentation was blah, perhaps the knifework on the carrots was fine, but the contrast to the other dishes was quite stark.

Our biggest problem in France is not the difficulty of getting vegetables, it's the prevalence of smoke.  Last year, a fabulously conceived and executed lunch at Arpege was severely marred by a fourtop of chainsmokers right next to us (a cigarette each per course, 8 courses, poor ventilation).  When we saw the cigar cart rolled out, we knew we were lost.  That's why we didn't go back this year even though Alan Passard has gone all vegetable.

Even in Alsace this year, my wife had no problem with the food.  Once again, the cigar cart proved our bugaboo (at e Vielle Ensigne in Strasbourg).

Any cigar smoking vegetarians out there, we know the places for you!

In Paris, she had a lovely meal at Lucas Carton.  Not much choice, but it didn't matter, she was in chanterelle paradise.

A most amazing 7 course vegetarian meal was to be had at Buerehiesal (in Strasbourg).  When the omnivores are jealous of the vegetarian, you know genius is at work.  This was actually a seasonal vegetarian tasting menu, with a gorgeous non smoking room.

I think you hit it right on the nose when you said that if a restaurant says they can accomodate a diet, it means in their style.

beachfan

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Or it should mean you can trust it will be in their style. When I post a message playing devil's advocate or defending the side that appears as if it's being tried in abstentia, I often worry about the defensive flame it may attract. Therefore I was very pleased to find your intelligent response. It's clear you didn't go blindly into Ducasse and had solid grounds for expecting better.

I'm not a vegetarian, but I suspect your comments on successful meals will be invaluable to someone else. As for smoke, we've had all sorts of problems and some pleasant experiences in France. This is probably another thread. (See Non-smoking in France.) I'll note that when our daughter returned from a trip to Paris she raved about her food at Guy Savoy and then added, "but you don't want to go there." Apparently they not only allow cigars, but encourage them. She said that fortuantely they were in a corner and for some reason the air currents in the room moved in such a way as not to carry much smoke her way. A few weeks ago, at a nice one star restaurant in Brittany, we were almost smoked out. We finished dinner none too soon. As we were leaving we saw two more cigars being prepared.

Last but not least, should you care to post a list of vegetarian friendly restaurants in France on the France message board I'd be delighted to see it and some others might find it of critical use.

For those interested in reading more posts about Ducasse, there's a thread about Spoon in Paris on the French board

(Edited by Bux at 12:14 pm on Aug. 14, 2001)

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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Having eaten at all three of Ducasse's restaurants, I consider Louis XV to be the best and the only one deserving of the effusive praise that is heaped on his restaurants.  In fact, I would say it is my favorite restaurant in the world.  I have eaten at Louis XV twice and each time had a superb tasting menu, the decor and service are both truly excellent.  Also, the wine list is the clearly the best of the three because it has the least mark-up balanced by a good selection.  The fact that it now only has 2 michelin stars is comical.

However, as much as I like Louis XV - I cannot recommend his NY restaurant without some reservations.  I have eaten there twice and I agree that it is the closest thing to a French 3 star experience that one can find in this country - the service, the table for the evening concept.  Unfortunately the food just does not measure up to Louis XV or even the Paris restaurant (which I would rate somewhere in between the 2).  The problem is for 赀 (which is really about 赲 when tax and tip is figured in) it just does not deliver a meal that is close to that of Louis XV (where a tasting menu costs 贱 US with tax and tip -not including a little extra due to the level of service) or that one would expect from the environment.  Take away the room and the style of service - I would say the food is no better than the best that Gramercy Tavern has to offer, but at half the price.  Its hard to justify all the extra money for the experience.  Also, the wine list at the NY branch has some of the worst mark-up I have seen anywhere.  Some of the prices they are asking is just criminal.  While I recognize that this is where a restaurant really makes its $$ and many people will pay those outrageous prices - it is still in my opinion a strike against the place.

Basically, do not go to Ducasse in NY and expect the best meal of your life, because you very well may leave disappointed.  The food is very good, just not exceptional.  However, you will have a very nice experience and one that is unlike pretty much any restaurant in the states.

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It's interesting that a member here, who writes for http://foodtourist.com, noted there that Ducasse actually has ownership or control over some 8 different restaurants in France, Monaco and NY. Only three of them aim at the top however.

I find your comments on AD/NY rather accurate, although subjective. While I enjoy reading wine lists with rare aged wines on the list, I prefer those with a good selection at prices I can afford. These are not the same lists that would encourage Wine Specator to issue an award to the restaurant however.

I'd take some issue with the comparison to Gramercy Tavern. It's a favorite of mine, and the food and service are faultless, but dining there never left me feeling as good as lunch at AD/NY did. During lunch at least, I felt it was worth every penny. Later, I felt the food was not any better than I had eaten in several NYC restaurants for less money. Still, it wasn't just the ambience or the service that had us feeling so well taken care of. Nothing annoys me more than eating in a restaurant where I feel more attention has been to anything other than the food. Perhaps another meal might put it in better perspective, <grin> but yes, it's a restaurant I have to think three times about booking as opposed to Daniel, Lespinasse, Le Beranrdin, Jean Geroges, GT, etc, where I only have to think twice about the price.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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  • 3 months later...

Since Mssrs. Bux and Fat-Guy both seem to have concluded  Alain Ducasse's new york restaurant is the closest thing to a michelin three star experience, i thought i would check it out, but since i am not heir to a diamonnd mine, I was hoping you all could offer suggestions that would make sure i get the most out of the experience.

For example, I have heard many voice the sentiment that dinner is usually better at most three star restaurants--especially since the most innovative/exciting menus are offered during the dinner service.  Is this true at ADNY?  Also, is there an appreciable difference in service between the lunch and dinner seatings?

After choosing a seating, there comes the task of choosing the menu...does anyone have any reccomendations on what route to choose: the seasonal tasting menu, theme tasting menu or a la carte?  Some restaurants, like restaurant Daniel seem to better with tasting menus while others like Grammercy Tavern (the dining room) tend to offer better a la carte selections--where in the continuum does ADNY fall?

thanks in advance for all of your insight.

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Lunch and dinner are pretty much identical, though there is a "bargain" lunch menu available (don't get it). The room is much lovelier with natural light coming in from the street, but the dinner scene is more energetic, and it feels like more of an event at night.

I suggest you order a la carte, because you will get a ton of food anyway and it's less expensive than the tastings. In terms of specific dishes, if you ask them to fax you the current menu and you post a few of the things you're considering, I can try to help you choose among the finalists.

If you're not made of money, remember a few things. First, everything costs extra. Your meal for two people can go from 踰 (not particularly insane for a top New York restaurant) to 迀 in a heartbeat if you start getting all the extras: Bottled water, glasses of Champagne, cheese, some of the additional dessert services, coffee, etc. It all really adds up, บ and ฤ here and there per person. The restaurant is a little erratic about what it actually charges extra for (sometimes the water is on the bill, sometimes it isn't; ditto for the candy cart), and there is no shame in asking. You can pass on all of the above and still have a fabulous meal. Or you can make intelligent choices if you know what to expect.

As for the wine list, there are some acceptable bottles for โ or so, and that's where I'd suggest you stay if you want to have the most economical possible meal there. Look at some of the New Zealand and South America wines. Also the South of France.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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I had lunch. As I recall we had a tasting menu and it seemed well priced in relationship to ordering a la carte. One can only hope, in retrospect, that I didn't have the bargain menu. I think the price structure has evolved over time, although my first visit has been my only visit. Ducasse is a great stretch of my budget as well. I really liked the light. I also enjoy lunch. It always seems so much more like cheating to spend the afternoon eating. I've enjoyed lunch at Daniel when they served lunch and I've enjoyed lunch at Lespinasse and Le Bernardin, although the last is the only one where you can see daylight. The regular menu was about 2% less expensive than at dinner, but was the way to go at Daniel in my opinion. Ducasse seemed to have a better offering of less expensive wines in NY than in Paris, but I'm not sure of that. My opinion about subjective things is likely to differ from Fat Guy's, but his information is on the nose.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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The light is very nice. You will also find it much easier to get a lunch reservation.

You can have a look at a sample menu and wine list at www.alain-ducasse.com . It doesn't seem that either document is entirely current, but they are good for reference.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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Having obtained a menu, I have to say the 趚 tartufi di alba menu sounds compelling, but i wonder if it can provide the biggest wow, or best showcase the restaurant's cuisine, as truffles seem to be the dominant element.

The "autumnal theme" menu is the same price as a three course a la carte, with the difference between two and three courses only ฟ, it makes me strongly inclined to try either the autumnal menu or the a la carte strategy.  The choice is, however, a difficult one as the tasting menu offers an intruiging lobster preparation and a "blond squab brast," and while i don't know the difference between a regular squab breast and a "blond" one, I am intruiged to see ducasse's take on the bird.

On the other hand the regular menu also offers lobster, as well as a foie gras terrine and a roasted "half-wild" duckling with "rounnaise" sauce.  Again, i'm not sure what "rouennaise" sauce is, or is rouennaise is not in fac a sauce but something else entirely, but I'm eager to find out.

Out of curiosity, I must also ask what is "vichyssoise?"  it is listed as part of a dish with sea scallops, osetra caviar, and watercress.  The ุ supplement makes it virtually out of the question unless someone can vouch for the dish) Is this a cooking technique or a kind of sauce?  Since i took spanish in school, i am faced with an ignorance of the cuisine as well as an ignorance of the language.

Finally, the menu says any choice includes dessert and "friandises and Gourmandises," which i assume the candy cart should fall under--it seems to me that at these prices the candy cart, which as i understand it is also includes the petite fours, should be a part of any prixe fixe option.  It seems awfully cheap to make that a supplemental charge--they might as well increase the menu prices ŭ for everyone and just offer it to all.

ps given this board's interest in (bottled) water policy, i'll be sure  to report any interesting behavior.

Thanks for all of your expert advise.

I will be sure to post the results of my meal, when it occurs, though I have to say Bux's posting of his meal at Alain Ducasse Paris sounds hard to match--at least from my limited experience of other nyc restaurants.

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I forgot to note the lobster preparation in the tasting menu is titled "chilled lobster with a soft gelee, seasonal green salad."  This sounds interesting, but i have no idea what the dominant flavors in the dish could possibly be.

On the other hand Halibut with pumpkin, grapes/chesnuts in a Sauternes reduction leaves me a bit sceptical, but is interesting enough that i throw it out for comment.

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Vichyssoise is a cold cream of potato and leek soup, invented by the legendary French chef Louis Diat, while he was working at the Ritz-Carlton in New York long before I was born. I believe Vichy was his mother's birthplace and this was all long before the Second World War. Really good potatoes command a good price at the green market, but I suspect the surcharge is for the caviar not the potatoes.

An educated(?) guess is that the rouennaise sauce is made with the blood of a duck, or at least its juices. I'm pulling this out of a hat, but making a connection to the days of duck presses. I don't see my Larousse Gastronomic handy. I'm sure there's a definitive clue in it.

I'd suppose the lobster would be the dominant flavor of that dish and that it would be very delicately flavored.

I mentioned somewhere that the sauce with the lamb was pungent with raw garlic. Was that a feature or a fault? I'm not sure if my venison was less than the most flavorful or just overshadowed by the incredible vegetables, but I don't remember it being very gamy. The trick of the chef is play up the best of the food he's cooked, but the diner's attitude is important. Look for fault and you will find it. Focus on the greatness.

Robert Buxbaum

WorldTable

Recent WorldTable posts include: comments about reporting on Michelin stars in The NY Times, the NJ proposal to ban foie gras, Michael Ruhlman's comments in blogs about the NJ proposal and Bill Buford's New Yorker article on the Food Network.

My mailbox is full. You may contact me via worldtable.com.

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"it seems to me that at these prices the candy cart, which as i understand it is also includes the petite fours, should be a part of any prixe fixe option"

There are petits fours, and there is a candy cart. You will receive, as part of your prix fixe, at least two plates of petits fours: One will probably be macarons, and the other will probably be assorted chocolates. In addition to that, you will have the option to select candies from a cart, which includes handmade treats of various kinds, including lollipops, marshmallows, caramels, madeleines, et al. Sure, it could be included in the prix fixe, but so could a lot of things (coffee, water, etc.). Personally, I'd rather have the option of skipping as many things as possible and keeping the menu price as low as possible, so the rich people who take all the extras are in effect subsidizing my meal. For all I know, they've changed the policy anyhow. They're constantly refining the policies there, in response to perceived customer desires.

I'd skip the truffle menu. This is, by all accounts, not the greatest year for white truffles. It's also not the kind of specialized thing I'd recommend for a first visit anywhere.

The scallop dish, with supplement, is one of the best, and the supplement is indeed on account of the caviar. Again, no reason to go there.

Of the other dishes you mention, the only one I've tried that I haven't been totally wild about is the chilled lobster. I haven't had the halibut dish, but it doesn't sound good -- then again, who knows? Still, I've found that among seafood dishes I've preferred the shellfish (the warm ones, at least) to the fin fish. Anything else, I suggest you choose by personal preference. Poultry of any kind is a Ducasse specialty, by the way, and I think he does a nice job with meats in general.

(Edited by Fat Guy at 3:42 am on Dec. 6, 2001)

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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  • 2 weeks later...

White Piemonte truffles have made a comeback. Because they take only 3-4 weeks to reach maturity, the colder weather that they do better in has improved them from early in the season. Early December is the peak of the season as the son of Cesare Giaccone of the reknown Ristorante Cesare near Monforte d'Alba once told me. (I found last week's truffles over there generally good, but not great unlike two years ago). But that's an aside. I agree with Steven: Don't eat the truffle. I believe that when you go to a great restaurant for the first time, especially one in which the likelihood of return visits is prohibitive, ordering a theme menu usually does not make it possible to take some significant measure of a chef.

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While I have yet to put together a financing package that would enable me to afford a meal at ADNY, I have had serious doubts about some of the criticism that it received shortly after opening.  Surely, I thought, this must be Sheraton's, Grimes', etc. way of making sure that Mr. Ducasse pays his dues in NYC.  Why else would they take pot shots at his new joint and cry foul over seemingly meaningless affectations.  However, without having the chance to eat there yet, I am in no position to do anything other than speculate.  But, it does seem to me that Mr. Grimes' review smacks of a "I told you so" smugness.  As if Grimes can now give his four star stamp of approval because Ducasse listened to him and changed the things that bothered him to begin with.

Generally, I find Grimes doing a fine job as restaurant reviewer and critic du jour, and I am not starting this topic to insult him.   However, I would like to know how those of you who had the opportunity to dine at ADNY feel about the apparent about face of this review.

cheers

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Here's what I had to say on this issue in February of this year:

Such substantial media backtracking has and will continue to foster the predictable development of a revisionist history of ADNY: The restaurant, the story runs, was a great disappointment -- nay, a betrayal -- when it opened. But thanks in large part to all that helpful and constructive criticism, ADNY has improved through humility, limiting some of its excesses and fine-tuning its cuisine, and is finally beginning to deliver on its grand promise.

This version of events is of course a fabrication. Never mind that some of the purported improvements in the restaurant are more appropriately described as diminutions -- I can't blame Mr. Ducasse for attempting to ensure his commercial survival, but I and many others will miss the exquisite collections of antique pens and custom-crafted knives. More significantly, as I have written in Commentary magazine, the attack on Ducasse was motivated by a combination of Francophobia, willful ignorance and cultural politics. To those of us who had no axe to grind with ADNY, the restaurant's unprecedented (on these shores) excellence was apparent from day one. Sadly, few in the food intelligentsia were able to recognize what was so obvious to so many actual customers.

Steven A. Shaw aka "Fat Guy"
Co-founder, Society for Culinary Arts & Letters, sshaw@egstaff.org
Proud signatory to the eG Ethics code
Director, New Media Studies, International Culinary Center (take my food-blogging course)

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