The skinny on starter

[pastramionrye]

I finihsed making my potato based starter for my spontaneous leavening bread.

yet i do not understand fully what is supposed to happen next (in a week or two's time). I am basing my recipes or formula's off of paul bertolli's chez panisse book.

first question, he said the starter should resemble a stiff batter....mine resembled a bread dough.

secondly. i will have about 13 ounces of starter once all is said and done. he uses a method, where you take 5 ounces of the starter to make a sponge, then begin making the bread, take away part of the new dough for your next loaf of bread. (but what about the 8 remaining ounces of starter?) But then earlier on the section for spontaneous leavening breads, he says 10 ounces per loaf are to be held back each time you make dough for the starter.

someone please help explain how i replensish my starter when i goo to make bread. i am utterly confused by this whole process of starter/sponge....

jonathan

ps. if i am using a la cloche to bake the bread, does that get preheated? does it get soaked in water? or will there be enough steam created by the top being on, covering the bread?

[Ladybug]

I don't know the answers to your questions, but it seems a shame to see this slide off the board without being answered.

[artisanbaker]

frankly, it's difficult to translate my technical knowledge to home baker qtys but i'll give it a shot

1st question. If it says it should resemble a stiff batter, use the amount of flour stated in the recipe and add enough water to make a stiff batter.

2nd question. You trash the extra starter. My guess would be the 10 ounces of dough would serve to continue the culture of ferments.

there's a LOT of ways to make sourdough bread. some would like to claim that their methods are more righteous, but...

a general idea is your starter should be at least doubled in volume with a decent ph (use you taste buds) after 6-8 hours. you can either refresh the starter to continue the culture by using the leftovers (what i said you could trash) or you might can save a step by using a piece of the bread dough you're mixing. usually starters don't contain salt so some bakers like to use the former, or otherwise they take a piece of the final dough before adding the salt.

regards,

rob

ps never played with those cloche things but i've heard they work well

[pastramionrye]

well it is nearly six weeks later...my starter is getting to be quite vigorous; with a great aroma.

i have had some failed loaves, some dense loaves...

and today, 2 excellent loaves.

it feels damn good.

ps: la cloche is great. my bread has a wonderful crust.

[SethG]

and today, 2 excellent loaves.

it feels damn good.

ps: la cloche is great. my bread has a wonderful crust.

Congratulations! How about a picture?

[balmagowry]

Second the motion, on both counts!

And tell us how you ended up answering your questions. DID you trash the extra starter, or did you use it to feed the cultuer? DID you pre-soak the cloche? I've never worked with one, but your account has my mouth watering and my acquisition-instinct twitching....

[SethG]

I missed 'rye's original question, but it looks to me like he should have definitely discarded the extra starter. I don't have Bertolli's book, but it appears he uses a typically French method where the starter, once established, is used to make dough, and then a piece of that dough becomes "old dough," or pate fermentee, for new breads.

Seems like 'rye figured it out.

[pastramionrye]

i have about 1 pound of starter...

i use about 4 or 5 ounces to make a sponge the previous day...discard another three ounces and then double the remaining 8.

the bottom of the cloche i keep in the oven while it is preheating....the top, i soak the inside in t water.

i dont use any of my remaining bread dough to make a pate fermantee, as i can only bake once a week.

[SethG]

i use about 4 or 5 ounces to make a sponge the previous day...discard another three ounces and then double the remaining 8.

...

i dont use any of my remaining bread dough to make a pate fermantee, as i can only bake once a week.

That's a totally legit way of going about sourdough breadmaking. I was just commenting on what it appeared Bertolli was trying to get you to do.

I don't know if Bertolli mentions this, but you can freeze pate fermentee for at least a month. Just something else you might want to try.

[pastramionrye]

how is pate fermentee any different than a spong (besides salt and hydration)?

does it add more to the bread in terms of flavor and texture than a sponge which ferments overnight?

[pastramionrye]

well i made bread again today, and i probably got my best oven spring to date...

but for some reason, parts of the crust separated a little bit from some of the sides of the bread (not the top or bottom).

anyways, the texture and flavor were really good.

here are the pictures:

crumb

crust

my twins

any constructive criticism would be helpful. thanks.

RYE

[SethG]

Criticism? Those are beautiful!

I think separation like that can be a sign of underproofing. Or is it overproofing?

By the way, I was hoping this thread would disappear because I said something the other day that was total horseshit. I don't know what I was thinking.

That Bertolli method is what the French call a levain method. In this method, you hold over dough from your last wild-yeast loaf to be a starter for your next loaf. The levain may last a couple days but you don't want to keep it longer than that without feeding it.

The levain is really very similar to a liquid starter-- it's just firmer. And a firmer starter generally yields bread that is less sour, or so people say. The fact that it is used quickly also contributes to its mildness. This mildness is preferred by the French.

Now, I misused the term pate fermentee the other day. I think this really only applies to breads made with commercial yeast. A piece of fully developed dough is held back from a batch of bread dough, and used in the next batch. This "old dough" will give the next batch of bread a slightly more complex flavor, but it won't equal the complexity that you'd find in bread with a wild yeast starter. I have seen recipes for pate fermentee bread which suggest that pate fermentee may be stored for a month in the freezer.

But what do I know anyway?

[SethG]

Dumb double post.

Edited May 25, 2004 by SethG (log)

[chefdg]

The bread looks like the dough was slightly overproofed. The wrinkles on the sides give me that impression. The crumb structure looks great (dough development), the crust could loose the blisters. Try cool proofing instead of retarding.

[McDuff]

Were those loaves held shaped in the refrigerator? That's where the little blisters come from. I like those. I think the separation occurs when the dough is making gas and it collects under a dried-out skin. If I need or want to hold a shaped loaf I spray it all over with pan spray and tuck plastic wrap around it.