Table Manners

[tryska]

i wish i remembered how my folks raised me, because my roommate needs some serious help.

i've finally gotten ehr trained to say excuse me when she burps. most of the time. I'm working on the talking with your mouthful thing. I don't even know where to start with the chewing with your mouth open part.

I don't know how to get her to find some proper manners without being rude. howeve rif i don't do something soon, i might wig out one day and try to choke her. it's a tough call.

Actually here's a question - i'm trying to figure out if this is rude or if i'm jsut being greedy.

If there is a food that i've bought, let's say cereal - highly sugared kiddy cereal (we're both on specific diets so we don't really share food per se) and i eat most of the box over the course of time, but there's one serving left....is it rude for her to eat that last serving?

[hjshorter]

The first lesson is to learn to observe how people react to you. It's ironic how many foreigners in France never learn to begin and end conversations with strangers in the proper fashion; i.e. Bonjour/Au revoir  Monsieur/Madame. Those magic words inspire forgiveness for subsequent inadvertent gaucheries.

We have similar conventions in the USA. "Good morning ma'am (or sir)" "Hello, how are you today?" "Goodbye, it was nice to meet you." However, few of my children's peers are being taught how to say such things. A grownup recently told Emma (age 4) goodbye, and that it was nice to meet her. She was amazed when Emma said "Thank you, it was nice to meet you too." Please and thank you are mandatory at our house.

And adults are always Mr or Mrs Whatever, no first names. It just frosts me to hear a four year old say "Heather, I want a juice box!"

We have been teaching Emma to wait for a pause and say "excuse me" before asking a question - that's been a tough one but it's beginning to catch on. Saying excuse me is required before leaving the table too. No elbows or toes on the table, napkin in your lap, use your utensils, no blowing bubbles in your milk, etc.

Ian, on the other hand, is an utter barbarian right now. As long as most of his food makes it into his mouth then dinner is a success.

Edited April 1, 2004 by hjshorter (log)

[phaelon56]

If there is a food that i've bought, let's say cereal - highly sugared kiddy cereal (we're both on specific diets so we don't really share food per se) and i eat most of the box over the course of time, but there's one serving left....is it rude for her to eat that last serving?

Yes, it is rude - very much so. I had a roommate years ago who'd come in and dribnk the only one or two beers I had in the fridge. Never apologized and when confronted just advised that "you're always welcome to one of my beers when I have some in the fridge". Yeah - right.... as if he'd be cool with my taking the last one. I soon discovered that the berer issue was one of his least objectionable traits and I found lodging elsewhere.

[balex]

The reality about table manners is that they are codes of behaviour that indicate (among other things) social class. If you are lucky enough to live in a classless society (e.g. on Mars), or have political objections to socially stratified societies, or are just lazy -- fine, don't teach your children these codes.

Table manners are one such code; dress, accent etc. are others. Table manners derive from rather abstract and scientifically inaccurate principles of food hygiene in much the same way that ties are for keeping your neck warm.

[Busboy]

And adults are always Mr or Mrs Whatever, no first names. It just frosts me to hear a four year old say "Heather, I want a juice box!"

Amen.

I called my in-laws Mr. and Mrs. for years after my marriage. Finally, one of them said, "why do you always call me 'Mrs. Schehr'?" I said "Because you never asked me to call you 'Audrey'." I was probably 35 at this point. I'm not usually that formal, but I knew she had a very strict sense of propriety. She claimed that they'd asked me to address them by their first name some years before and that I'd forgotton, which happens sometimes when your father-in-law is in the liquor business and most meetings come during the holiday season.

I knew if I couldn't be rich, being (as Miss Manners puts it) "excruciatingly correct" would make me at least partially acceptable as a son-in-law.

I expect if I'd ever called her "mom," she would have knifed me with one of those razor-sharp Sabatiers she kept in the kitchen.

No first names from kids in my house.

[Cusina]

Tryska, I'd be tempted to invest in a big black permanent marker and write my name on stuff. She should at least ask permission before diving into your coco puffs!

No way do my kids have perfect table manners all the time, or eat everything I cook. That would be a serious miracle. My daughter won't even touch tomatoes or onions (two of the basic food groups in my mind). But, Fifi gave me some hope in saying that the good foundation finally starts to shine through around age 10. My kids are only 4 and 6, so I can't give up yet.

We do NOT, however, eat in front of the television unless it is super bowl Sunday. Yuck, how unappealing. I can see how that would seriously deteriorate table manners.

[Cusina]

On the Mr. and Mrs. thing I tend not to be so strict. I ask other parents how they would like to be addressed teach my kids to do the same, defaulting to Mr. and Mrs. Soandso when there is no preference stated. Many, actually most of our grown up friends and neighbors prefer the kids use their first names. We live in the North though and are therefore a bunch of barbarians.

[Busboy]

If I met a four- or six-year-old with perfect manners, I'd be afraid, very afraid. It does take quite a while for good manners to become automatic, so keep plugging and don't worry. And (in my experience) boys take longer.

[MichaelB]

We have similar conventions in the USA. "Good morning ma'am (or sir)" "Hello, how are you today?" "Goodbye, it was nice to meet you." However, few of my children's peers are being taught how to say such things. A grownup recently told Emma (age 4) goodbye, and that it was nice to meet her. She was amazed when Emma said "Thank you, it was nice to meet you too." Please and thank you are mandatory at our house.

And adults are always Mr or Mrs Whatever, no first names. It just frosts me to hear a four year old say "Heather, I want a juice box!"

There are two things that bother me regarding the manners of others' children -- as I have none, mine are perfect.

The first is speaking to adults when spoken to and the second is being called by my first name. My brother's and sisters' children generally use first names only when speaking to an aunt or uncle. I have taken to responding with "the only Michael I see here is Uncle Michael. Were you speaking to me?

I realize that it really isn't my place to correct others' children but I often cannot help myself.

[balmagowry]

On the Mr. and Mrs. thing I tend not to be so strict.  I ask other parents how they would like to be addressed teach my kids to do the same, defaulting to Mr. and Mrs. Soandso when there is no preference stated.  Many, actually most of our grown up friends and neighbors prefer the kids use their first names.  We live in the North though and are therefore a bunch of barbarians. 

We had a kind of middle ground for this when I was little; of course I was taught NEVER to call grown-ups by their first names, but there were quite a few people who were such close family friends that being Mr. and Mrs. seemed awkward to them. Many years later I was surprised to learn that I didn't really have quite as many aunts and uncles as I thought.... Of course all this "courtesy" nomenclature was discussed and agreed to beforehand by the adults involved - I just called people what I was told to call them.

[Mulcahy]

And adults are always Mr or Mrs Whatever, no first names.  It just frosts me to hear a four year old say "Heather, I want a juice box!"

In my house, precisely because I asked "why" so often, I called my parents by their first names. Friends parents and other adults were always Mr. and Mrs. So and So, unless I was specifically told otherwise.

I don't have children, but am absolutely thrilled to see so many of you trying to raise yours right. I cannot tell you what a charge I get out of seeing a well-mannered child enjoying dinner with his or her parents at a nice restaurant. It makes me believe that there is hope for the future. (And also makes me think back fondly on my own childhood, since I was one of those kids. I loved going out to eat.)

[Busboy]

On the Mr. and Mrs. thing I tend not to be so strict.  I ask other parents how they would like to be addressed teach my kids to do the same, defaulting to Mr. and Mrs. Soandso when there is no preference stated.   Many, actually most of our grown up friends and neighbors prefer the kids use their first names.  We live in the North though and are therefore a bunch of barbarians. 

We had a kind of middle ground for this when I was little; of course I was taught NEVER to call grown-ups by their first names, but there were quite a few people who were such close family friends that being Mr. and Mrs. seemed awkward to them. Many years later I was surprised to learn that I didn't really have quite as many aunts and uncles as I thought.... Of course all this "courtesy" nomenclature was discussed and agreed to beforehand by the adults involved - I just called people what I was told to call them.

People should be addressed -- by peers as well as children -- as they wish to be addressed. I ask my children to address adults by their honorifics (?) but if Mr. Steitz prefers to be called Paul, that's his decision, not mine.

I have a weakness for Victorian-era novels in which a gentleman's asking a lady for permission to address her by her first name is tantamount to a marriage proposal. That may be a little much; what would I have called Mrs. Busboy in the years before I asked for her hand but after we had moved in together? But any movement away from 9-year-olds and telemarketers calling me "Charles" on first meeting would be appreciated.

[cakewalk]

I'm another whose children are perfect, since I don't have any.

But I have nieces and nephews and my friends have kids, and I've watched most of them grow from fairly obnoxious kids into utterly obnoxious adolescents and, lo and behold, for the most part into healthy, caring, polite and even sincere young adults. I'm not sure how this transformation actually takes place; in fact, it's rather a mystery to me. But take place it did.

But I do think that kids are NOT "little adults," and expecting them to behave as such can be problematic. They are kids. They are going to get on your nerves and in your hair, that's part of their role, it's what they're about. They do need to be taught the basics (again and again) when they're young, but we can't expect them to absorb the stuff until they're older. There's this time warp that has to be allowed for.

[balmagowry]

There are two things that bother me regarding the manners of others' children -- as I have none, mine are perfect.

The first is speaking to adults when spoken to and the second is being called by my first name.  My brother's and sisters' children generally use first names only when speaking to an aunt or uncle.  I have taken to responding with "the only Michael I see here is Uncle Michael.  Were you speaking to me?

I realize that it really isn't my place to correct others' children but I often cannot help myself.

It may not be your place to correct other peoople's children, but you are perfectly within your rights to establish with them, as individuals, how you wish to be addressed. Addressing you by your given name alone is a privilege which is yours to bestow or withhold, with anyone. I don't allow strangers (salespeople, especially! ) to address me by my first name; I consider it an unwarranted liberty. They, of course, have never encountered such standards, so they think I'm dotty. Let them. And no doubt I am. But I still think that addressing anyone by given name only (anyone, that is, other than an acknowledged social peer who has introduced himself, or been introduced, that way) is forward; improper; infra dig.

[Marlene]

Generally speaking, Ryan does not call adults by their first names. We have a couple of close friends that are the exception. And Ryan is always expected to say "Thank you for having me" when he's been invited to a friend's house - as he's leaving their house.

[tryska]

phaelon and cusina - thanks for the etiquette check, i was wondering if maybe i was being selfish. I've taken to keeping any sort of candy, cookie, cheatmeal stuff i don't want eaten in my bedroom closet. It feels wierd to do it, but if i don't she will literally eat it all and then say "i wasn't feeling well - all i could handle was some sugar." ugh.

[devlin]

I have a quandry that isn't so much about the table manners of children but related to having children to dinner, which is to say, actually, preferring not to have them to dinner. Or friends' children anyway. I don't have children of my own. But several of our friends do have children, and although I don't mind enjoying their company on occasion, especially if it's out or at their own home, there are other times I'd rather enjoy the company of the parents sans children. I'd like to be able to invite my friends over for dinner without them automatically presuming it's a family invitation, even when it's framed, "Gary and I would love to have you and Don over for dinner on Saturday." Inevitably, they show up with the kids. Is there a way to frame this politely so as not to alienate good friends? As far as I'm concerned, they might just as well bring their dogs too.

I actually don't hate children, I just prefer to enjoy them on other people's property.

[balmagowry]

I have a quandry that isn't so much about the table manners of children but related to having children to dinner, which is to say, actually, preferring not to have them to dinner. Or friends' children anyway. I don't have children of my own. But several of our friends do have children, and although I don't mind enjoying their company on occasion, especially if it's out or at their own home, there are other times I'd rather enjoy the company of the parents sans children. I'd like to be able to invite my friends over for dinner without them automatically presuming it's a family invitation, even when it's framed, "Gary and I would love to have you and Don over for dinner on Saturday." Inevitably, they show up with the kids. Is there a way to frame this politely so as not to alienate good friends? As far as I'm concerned, they might just as well bring their dogs too.

Watch what you say! Next time they might do just that!

BTW I certainly feel you have every right to exclude the kids from your invitation; the difficulty is that the parents have already set a contrary precedent. No, the difficulty is that no matter how delicately you do it they may still choose to take offense. The trick is to frame it in a positive way, to make the idea of an adults-only gathering seem enticing. That said, of course no one but you can gauge the nature of your relationship with them and the degree of risk, or perhaps the risk/reward ratio. And though you are the only one who can do it, it doesn't necessarily follow that you can do it successfully! Tricky tricky tricky. Depending on how you assess that intangible aspect, you may fiind that the best thing to do is to level with them, exactly as you did with us.

Only do NOT bring the dog into it.

P.S. If you're going to level with them, chances are you should only level with ONE of them; pick the more rational of the two, and do it in person, not over the phone.

[Marlene]

I have a quandry that isn't so much about the table manners of children but related to having children to dinner, which is to say, actually, preferring not to have them to dinner. Or friends' children anyway. I don't have children of my own. But several of our friends do have children, and although I don't mind enjoying their company on occasion, especially if it's out or at their own home, there are other times I'd rather enjoy the company of the parents sans children. I'd like to be able to invite my friends over for dinner without them automatically presuming it's a family invitation, even when it's framed, "Gary and I would love to have you and Don over for dinner on Saturday." Inevitably, they show up with the kids. Is there a way to frame this politely so as not to alienate good friends? As far as I'm concerned, they might just as well bring their dogs too.

I actually don't hate children, I just prefer to enjoy them on other people's property.

If you're very close to them, as balmagowry says, pick one to talk to. Suggest, that while you're delighted to see their kids (even if you aren't), say you'd really like to have an "adults" only evening now and then. When you extend invitations to them, you could then say, hey can we make this an adult's night?

[Jake]

I have a quandry that isn't so much about the table manners of children but related to having children to dinner, which is to say, actually, preferring not to have them to dinner. Or friends' children anyway. I don't have children of my own. But several of our friends do have children, and although I don't mind enjoying their company on occasion, especially if it's out or at their own home, there are other times I'd rather enjoy the company of the parents sans children. I'd like to be able to invite my friends over for dinner without them automatically presuming it's a family invitation, even when it's framed, "Gary and I would love to have you and Don over for dinner on Saturday." Inevitably, they show up with the kids. Is there a way to frame this politely so as not to alienate good friends? As far as I'm concerned, they might just as well bring their dogs too.

I actually don't hate children, I just prefer to enjoy them on other people's property.

If you're very close to them, as balmagowry says, pick one to talk to. Suggest, that while you're delighted to see their kids (even if you aren't), say you'd really like to have an "adults" only evening now and then. When you extend invitations to them, you could then say, hey can we make this an adult's night?

Just hope you don't have friends like a couple we used to know. The response: Only if you're going to pay for a babysitter. Besides, where we go, our kids go. Please try not to serve dinner too late, the young ones get hungry earlier.

That was the end of that. Never invited them to dinner again. BTW, I really like children, I just don't appreciate being forced to have them, or cater to them. This same couple once showed up to a Superbowl party that was specifically stated as adults only with a 2 year old and then proceeded to complain that the home was not child-friendly and that some people were smoking. Had it been my house, I would've suggested they leave.

[hjshorter]

We had a kind of middle ground for this when I was little; of course I was taught NEVER to call grown-ups by their first names, but there were quite a few people who were such close family friends that being Mr. and Mrs. seemed awkward to them. Many years later I was surprised to learn that I didn't really have quite as many aunts and uncles as I thought.... Of course all this "courtesy" nomenclature was discussed and agreed to beforehand by the adults involved - I just called people what I was told to call them.

My kids have a number of "aunts" and "uncles" too, very close family friends and their Godparents, for instance. Some have chosen the Southern version and are called Miss or Mr (first name) instead.

Of course, teachers table manners, and manners in general, is a repetetive process with near constant reminding. I have actually heard myself telling the children that I'm tired of sounding like a broken record...of course they don't even know what a record is...

[Cusina]

We have very crafty friends without children. For example, in two weeks they have invited us to a baseball game. They specifically stated in the invitation that they already had FOUR tickets, ergo, leave the kids at home. Which is fine with us, actually. The kids will have just as much fun with the babysitter.

Ironically, this childless couple has a huge very excitable black lab that my kids are scared witless of. We are unlikely to take the kids back to their house anyways as the dog just can't seem to leave the kids alone. Rather scary when she looks them in the eye and weighs at least twice what they do. My kids really enjoy the couple, they just don't like the dog. I suppose dog manners are an entirely different thread though.

[Sentiamo]

Cusina, we absolutely could have a dog/children thread! I have a 60 kg Maremma.

He is white and fluffy, a drawcard for kids, but could be a dangerous one also, not because he is not disciplined, rather, children tend to be too much in his 'getting to be old' face.

Getting back to Table Manners, one thing that totally dismays me is the amount of children unable to use a knife and fork properly. Little ones, I understand. 10 and upwards I do not. I am a Caterer and host many functions at our venue as well as out catered meals. Without fail, there are always children who use the knife and fork as a weapon, and often in the wrong hand. I wonder if they are able to tie their shoelaces! Sad.

Coordination is not always easily learnt, and I understand that there are those who will never master the art, but the amount of children I see without these skills astounds me. I applaud all of you who are taking the time ( and it is NOT an effort) to impress upon young ones, a certain table etiquette. Long may your lessons live on!!

[tryska]

Re - knife and fork in the wrong hand - isn't there a difference in style between american and continental?

I know being left handed i definitely prefer to use my fork in my left hand, and then when a knife is necessary, i use my right hand.

Edited April 2, 2004 by tryska (log)

[fifi]

The manners of address discussed here amuse me. I am a lady "of a certain age" (57) and it has become increasingly common to be addressed as "Miss Linda". And that by colleagues of my age or older. The gentlemen (and I do mean gentlemen) that do this are of the Southern Persuasion. I absolutely love it. My kids still call their step-mother Miss Barbara. And we all think that is proper. We would never dream of calling someone by their first name without the honorific unless the relationship had developed to the point that that was permissable. With children, that is unthinkable. I am "Aunt Linda" to friends' children and that is that.

When dealing with friends' children at dinner (which is blessedly infrequent) I just try to remember that it is a long journey and that it really won't start to work until about age 10, like I said up-thread. Amusingly, I have actually had some of the parents ask me to perform gentle corrections on their children because it will make more of an impact coming from "Miss Linda".