Table Manners

[bleachboy]

I've also seen too many adults who wrap one arm around the plate and hunch over, while shoveling food in with the other -- it makes it look like they were raised in an orphanage and had to protect their gruel from poaching by the other kids.

In the Southern US, I've seen this quite often, but consider it forgivable.

I had a boss one time that ate like that, and I mean he would really shovel. He'd be done eating two minutes into the meal.

I asked him about it (we were buddies) and he explained that lots of folks who grew up on farms, with big families, developed this habit because eating defensively was the best way to ensure a second helping.

[Dana]

The only thing I have to add about the NO WHINNING rule is this: If you don't like something, keep your mouth SHUT. Either pick out what you don't like, ie, the peas, and leave them on the plate while eating the rest, or don't eat it at all, but DON'T COMPLAIN ABOUT IT. After hearing my nephews holler "I don't like______", I vowed my kids would never embarrass me like that, and they never did. Today, my kids, now adults will try just about anything.

[psychobombshell]

We were pretty normal in our house, with the "no elbows", saying grace, and waiting til everyone was sserved...but there were a couple weird ones... I have no idea why, but "no singing" and "no whistling" at the table were rules...apparently someone actually did these things at one pont... of course being the rebel who liked to get under my grandpa's skin that I was, I made a point to do both....

Bravo on raising responsible well mannered kids!

Question, though...as an adult, are there places to take etiquette classes? Is there still such a thing as charm school still? I'm not that bad, but my table manners could use a good polishing for when I need to sit in on lunch meeting and such. Being in law kind of requires me to make a good impression.....

[maggiethecat]

Oh man, this is a subject close to my heart. Teaching table manners -- and using them --is one of the few battles we can wage to preserve civilization as we know it.

My mother is a zero-tolerance kinda gal. Because we were (and are) in awe of her, she never had much policing to do. The very thought of, say, putting ones elbow on the table was unthinkable, in the same felony range as misplaced apostrophes or confusion over transitive and intransitive verbs.

A curlicue she added (to the list of rules mentioned by all you fine parents) was this: enforced appreciation. After asking to be excused (and before doing the dishes) we had to push our chairs in smartly, stand behind them, and say: "Thank you for that delicious dinner." Fortunately, it was usually a damned delicious dinner.

Note: My adorable sister Julie (Downs Syndrome) astounds everyone with her dainty table manners, and expert chopstick technique. And, operaphile that she is, Julie doesn't simply rattle off the "Thank you for the..." thing -- she gives my mother a standing O and shouts "Bravo!" She blows kisses towards the head of the table. Oh, that we all could receive such affirmation.

I was a tiny bit less rigid than Mummy in schooling my daughter in the fine points of table etiquette, because Honor seemed born with a JD and questioned every rule from the time she could construct a sentence. Happily, she spent most summers with my parents in Montreal, so any sign of backsliding was instantly corrected by her stern but adoring Mummy-Dee. She now has a job which includes writing, dining and schmoozing rich folks from whom she needs to extract money. Early training pays off.

[therese]

Eating hunched over your food, with one arm wrapped around the plate is "prison style".

I have a colleague in another city who eats so, um, aggressively that food actually comes out of his mouth. I can't avoid eating with him entirely (and he really is a nice person, and very bright) so just make a point of not eating either beside him or in front of him.

One of the biggest issues in my household is that husband is not nearly so careful with things like fish knives and so forth, so there's occasionally a bit of a rift over just how important is that our children hold their forks carefully. I point out that it's part of the package, the package including things like making eye contact when you shake hands, and deferring to (and even helping) the elderly when appropriate.

It really is all about making the world a nicer place for those around you.

[balmagowry]

I'd like to add my appreciation and congratulations for the great job you clearly are all doing with your kids - the more so for the way you (and they) apparently feel about it. (Plus an extra little glob of delight at Maggie for naming her daughter Honor - how lovely.) Good manners and training are laudable in themselves; good manners coupled with intelligence and an understanding of their purpose and importance - well, these days that's little short of a miracle. If I had any of my own (kids, I mean, not manners), which ain't in the cards, I hope I'd do the same - in accordance with the way I too was brought up. Virtually all the rules you cite, with occasional common-sense exceptions as long as they were always handled courteously. (AND curtsying when shaking hands with a grown-up - that habit was so thoroughly drilled into me that it took me a while to break it once I reached the height, if not necessarily the dignity, of a grown-up myself.)

There's just one classic rule that sets me wondering, and that's the one about not putting elbows on the table. I was taught it, of course (Mabel, Mabel, sweet and able...), and it was enforced along with the others when I was a child; but as I grew up my parents and I all imperceptibly relaxed about it, and now it seems normal to put them there sometimes. Not during the act of eating, and not sprawling all over the place, but between courses or perhaps even between mouthfuls, especially while listening closely (and politely!) to what someone across the table is saying.

I guess the reason this one gets my attention more than most is that putting one's elbows on the table does not strike me as an inherently offensive or embarrassing act - not like speaking with one's mouth full or belching loudly or any of these:

You should not clean your teeth with your napkin, much less with your fingers, for these are uncouth acts; nor rinse your mouth with wine and spit it out onto your plate; nor is it genteel, upon leaving the table, to carry a toothpick in your mouth, like a bird building its nest, or wear it behind your ear like a barber.

And after you have blown your nose, do not open your handkerchief to look inside it as though pearls or rubies had fallen from your brain.

--Giovanni della Casa, Il Galateo

Anyway, I wonder whether the elbows rule didn't start out as an artificial simplification of "don't sprawl all over the table." Spose I should have looked it up in Miss Manners and/or Margaret Visser before bothering this august assembly with it, especially since I'll just have to go off and do that now anyway - but... well... you know how it is....

[Beto]

I'm constantly shocked when I see people look at an unfamiliar food, wrinkle their nose, and say, "what's in it?" or "what does it taste like?" For God's sake, try a little and see if you like it!

I may expect kids to react this way but I see it in college-educated people all of the time.

[therese]

I don't know where the "no elbows" thing really comes from, but presumably it's to discourage you from impinging on other people's space.

We actually have very specific rules about where hands and arms should and shouldn't be. Both hands are always visible (we don't do that weird thing where one hand rests in your lap---who can eat this way?), with the wrists resting on the table at the beginning of the meal. As the meal progresses you can move your forearms farther up on the table edge, until you're finally at the end, with coffee and whatever and then elbows are okay. As long as there's still "real" food on the table, no elbows. After that they're fine.

[Marlene]

I'm constantly shocked when I see people look at an unfamiliar food, wrinkle their nose, and say, "what's in it?" or "what does it taste like?" For God's sake, try a little and see if you like it!

I may expect kids to react this way but I see it in college-educated people all of the time.

I don't wrinkle my nose, but since I have a food allergy, I always ask what's in a dish I'm unfamiliar with

[balmagowry]

I don't wrinkle my nose, but since I have a food allergy, I always ask what's in a dish I'm unfamiliar with

Fair enough, but I bet you do it politely and explain the reason. Anyone who could respond churlishly to that almost deserves a little anaphylactic shock of his very own.

I guess that's what I meant earlier, about common-sense exceptions handled courteously. After all, hard and fast rules are all very well in their place (and one of their places is in early table manners training ), but real life produces a lot of unexpected exceptions; so I should think that in table manners, as in any other context, the overriding lesson is the underlying concept: showing respect and courtesy to others.

[Bux]

There are few things more rewarding that a well mannered child and it doesn't matter if it's your child, or someone else's if that child is in your company. For all that, I have a lot of trouble with the way manners are taught to most children and no less so for the way they're described here by some. Good manners have very little to do with rules and everything to do with being conscious of others. I also find if strange that one refers to someone with good manners as being well bred. Manners is a matter of behavior and not genetics. We are all responsible for our own manners as well as for that of our children.

My objection to rules is several fold. It makes no distinction between social conventions that are meaningless, social conventions that oil social situations and the fine acts that make others comfortable or uncomfortable. It should be easy enough to explain why someone might want to keep one's mouth closed while eating. It's not particularly pleasant to watch the other way. If's far less easy to explain why one shouldn't put one's elbows on the table. In fact, in France, it's quite permissable to put one's elbows on the table and far more so than putting one's hands in one's lap. The latter is seen as very ill mannered.

This brings up another issue. By teaching a set or rules that are presented as inviolate and universal, one may be well on the way of making a child intolerant of other cultures and less fit to expand his own horizons by traveling. My child, who's now raising her child, was always encouraged to ask "why?" and only rarely, in emergency situations, required to accept "because that's what we say" as an answer. She was taught few rules, but she was taught to consider how what she was doing at any time might affect others. Raising a child to ask "why?" is not without its risks and the results are often seen as ill mannered and disrespectful, but generally only by those who feel respect comes with a job or title and not something that needs be earned.

[Jake]

All the rules and teaching will do your kids a favour some day. How much easier is it to be placed in a meal situation (new job, first date, unfamiliar surroundings etc.) and know the one thing you won't have to worry about is your table manners, or which fork to use.

When I was 17 I was already at university. As luck would have it I became friends with a girl who came from a very wealthy family. Truth be told, her mother was quite a snob and was often making snide comments about her friends backgrounds (all pretty much upper middle class). I was invited to a dinner at their home shortly after we'd become friends. Some dinner.....sit down for 40! More courses than I'd seen at one time. However, table manners had been drilled into my brother and I since we were old enough to sit at a table. My mother had taught me how to set a table and how to use all the utensils. Luckily, we had travelled enough I was familiar with escargot, oysters, fish courses and their utensils. I sat at that table and was completely comfortable with the routine, if not the company. I thanked my mother profusely the next morning. And, believe it or not, after the dinner my friends mother complemented me on my excellent manners and social skills and told me I was welcome in her home any time. Big praise at 17!

Teach your kids, it'll never hurt them!

[maggiethecat]

This brings up another issue. By teaching a set or rules that are presented as inviolate and universal, one may be well on the way of making a child intolerant of other cultures and less fit to expand his own horizons by traveling.

Heaven forbid! Parents who lead by example will also teach their children about tolerance and curiosity.

[balmagowry]

For all that, I have a lot of trouble with the way manners are taught to most children and no less so for the way they're described here by some. Good manners have very little to do with rules and everything to do with being conscious of others.

I think it's a question of timing and balance. There are times when little kids need to explore every question in depth, and there are times (especially if they're out in public and are at all shy) when what they really need is just to know what they're expected to do. Each of those has its place and its value. Seems to me that starting from the rules and elaborating from there is not necessarily a bad idea. I know that when I was little there was a period of a year or so when I had real difficulty accepting grey areas in anything. And I was shy, and often had reason to be grateful that I didn't have to stop and think about how to behave. Oooh, here's an analogy: it's like technique, coordination and interpretation. Teach 'em to play scales first; when they can do that without having to think about every finger movement, that's when they can start playing - and playing with - music. It's lovely to be conversant with Shakespeare, and it's also lovely to understand the ways in which language and usage have changed since his time - and to accept that a Shakespeare can occasionally bend or break those rules if so moved. But the Shakespeare who wrote "the most unkindest cut of all" and "damn'd be him Who first cries 'Hold, enough!'" is not the best primer in which to learn the rudiments of grammar.

Or to put it more originally, gotta walk before you run.

I also find if strange that one refers to someone with good manners as being well bred. Manners is a matter of behavior and not genetics. We are all responsible for our own manners as well as for that of our children.

Sure, but remember the history of that turn of phrase - it comes from a time when only those who were gently bred could afford to be gently reared. Time was, manners were a pretty reliable indicator of class. They were also that much more artificial - whereas now, aside from knowing which fork is which, they are almost interchangeable with thoughtfulness and courtesy. 'Twas not ever thus.

Which of course is one of the reasons for my query about elbows! Thanks for the reminder - I've spent a fair bit of time in France, and my parents and grandparents all lived in Europe at various times, so no wonder we're lax in that area! It occurs to me that that is not our only "foreign" habit by a long chalk - but for some reason I hadn't considered it from a cultural standpoint.

[Cusina]

By teaching a set or rules that are presented as inviolate and universal, one may be well on the way of making a child intolerant of other cultures and less fit to expand his own horizons by traveling. My child, who's now raising her child, was always encouraged to ask "why?" and only rarely, in emergency situations, required to accept "because that's what we say" as an answer. She was taught few rules, but she was taught to consider how what she was doing at any time might affect others.

auntdot and Maggie, thanks for sharing your great stories!

Bux, you have come close to touching on the heart of my original question. How strict is too strict?

While I definitely want my childrens' company to be enjoyed by others and I do recognize that having good manners oils the wheels of life, I also think it is important for our long term relationship that my children respect me as a parent because I want good things for them in their lives, not because I am a dictator. I think I agree with your assertion that not only do kids need to know the how of good table manners, they also need to understand the why, the courtesy and respect that is the impetus for the rules. And also, as they grow, they need to develop an understanding that different cultures interpret and show that courtesy in different ways. If you as a parent ensure that level of understanding is reached by your children then it is impossible to be too strict.

Whew, parenting is complicated.

[Susan G]

Cusina, I'm not sure one needs to worry about being "too strict" in terms of what is required of your children - the breadth and scope of manners is large, and difficult to remember, but if corrections are done kindly, and gently, then the practice becomes natural. It's when manners are used as weapons of destruction (see above post on the horrors of Sunday dinners) that no-one wants to see them taught.........It sounds like you have nothing to worry about in implementation.

Ah, prison-style eating. I'd seen it in my new spouse this week, and was at a loss for words. My suggestion tonight that one of his parents say Grace for the Sunday dinner was scoffed at; the meal took five hours to prepare, and conversation at the table was dominated by complaints about the rudeness/overpopulation of New Jersey (I live in NM), and the cities in Europe serviced by the various airlines. Oh horrors! I have married into a tribe of table barbarians! I long for meals where literature, culture, and current events are discussed, and the finer points of the wine and food served is appreciated.........I miss the home in which I was raised.

I can vigorously campaign for a greater awareness in my spouse, but for my in-laws I need to start praying for forbearance!!!

[maggiethecat]

I can vigorously campaign for a greater awareness in my spouse, but for my in-laws I need to start praying for forbearance!!!

Pray.

I've been married foralmost thirty years, but a dinner with my father-in-law is fraught with stomach-churning stress, political argument, and the spectacle of my husband reliving every father-son conflict sine 1962. This battle precludes any comment on the dinner I have really, really worked on for three hours.

Yes, these guys have "good table manners."

[Bux]

Whew, parenting is complicated.

You mean like how a dozen years of trying in vain to get your kid to clear her own dishes and just bring them to the dishwasher becomes unimportant when you hear she had dinner with a friend's family and washed the dishes afterwards. You can never be quite sure how your kids will react when you're not there. For better or worse, how they act at home and when you're around may not be the way they act when you're not there.

[Bux]

I think it's a question of timing and balance. There are times when little kids need to explore every question in depth, and there are times (especially if they're out in public and are at all shy) when what they really need is just to know what they're expected to do. Each of those has its place and its value. Seems to me that starting from the rules and elaborating from there is not necessarily a bad idea. I know that when I was little there was a period of a year or so when I had real difficulty accepting grey areas in anything. And I was shy, and often had reason to be grateful that I didn't have to stop and think about how to behave.

Yes, everything is a question of timing and balance, but I suspect timing and balance are seen subjectively by most of us. Those of us who have raised one child are far more confident we know exactly the best way to do it. Friends who have raised two of three kids tell us each one was different and that each one had his own needs and each one required a change in technique.

[John Whiting]

TV Dinners create spoiled brats says a news item in the [London] Daily Telegraph

The trend for young children to eat alone in front of the television is creating a generation of youngsters with few social skills or table manners, according to a new [survey of 2,000 parents].

[fifi]

Friends who have raised two of three kids tell us each one was different and that each one had his own needs and each one required a change in technique.

Boy is that true. My son and daughter are two very different creatures and required a very different approach. But I will say that both of them benefited from knowing where the boundaries were, the rules if you will. We did discuss from time to time that the whole purpose of manners is to convey respect for other people. This is a long process and is not accomplished with one lesson or one discussion. I found that it took perseverance for a lot of years. It finally started to take hold about age 10.

Interestingly enough, once you start to talk about "manners" you can get into how those manners may differ in different cultures. When traveling, that was one thing we looked into before we traveled. There have been all kinds of interesting discussions and spin-offs from that.

[Kim WB]

I might need to change my sig line, to include " kids with Perfect manners who eat everything".

In our house,its a lot more important to have read a newspaper in the morning, or discuss and dissect something we heard on the radio, than it is to put your napkin on your lap. It's much more of a priority to me that I raise a child with strong social convictions and opinions than a child who knows how to use a fish knife...a fish knife, for crying out loud! And its much more important to me that we laugh..REALLY LAUGH together at dinner, milk coming out of the nose kind of laughter, than it is to give them a speech about milk coming out of their noses. Be able to tell me what the presidential candidates stand for, not how important it is to sit like a soldier at a meal in your own kitchen!

With that said, my teens are all operating within the boundries of social acceptability. They don't shout in restaurants, they are lovely guests ( I have been told) and there is nothing unapppealing about the way they eat..but they say that don't like things ALL the time, my sons still fling an occassional morsel at each other, my daughter eats like a speed demon, and even mom has been known to do weird Pelligrinno experiments at the table.

[Marlene]

Whew, parenting is complicated.

You mean like how a dozen years of trying in vain to get your kid to clear her own dishes and just bring them to the dishwasher becomes unimportant when you hear she had dinner with a friend's family and washed the dishes afterwards. You can never be quite sure how your kids will react when you're not there. For better or worse, how they act at home and when you're around may not be the way they act when you're not there.

I recently performed introductions to the dishwasher with both my husband and son. "Guys, this is the dishwasher, Mr Dishwashwer, These two are my husand and son. They're first time users so be gentle with them". Dishes go in the dishwashwer when they're dirty, not on the counter. "This is a cupboard. Clean dishes like to reside in cupboards when they aren't being used".

They looked at me as though I'd lost my mind.

I frequently get reports of how helpful Ryan is when he's at someone else's house. Apparently he brings his dishes out, helps clear the table, he might even help set the table. I usually stare at the parent and ask what they've done with my son

[Busboy]

You're kind of creating a false dichotomy, though. One can certainly teach one's children to use a fish fork and, at the same time, to understand the environmental impact of overfishing. Teaching manners is not restricting, in fact it's liberating in that gives people guidelines for behavior outside familiar settings. As a former waiter in a formal restaurant, I can assure you that tonight, across this great land of ours, hundreds, if not thousands of witty and delightful individuals will be failing to make fine conversation because they are angst-ridden over which fork to use and where to put their napkin. Teaching that manners exist, even in the kitchen, also alerts children to watch for cues when travelling in other cultures who dine more formally that we do.

[NeroW]

I don't know where the "no elbows" thing really comes from, but presumably it's to discourage you from impinging on other people's space.

The first texts devoted to table manners started to appear at the beginning of the 12th century and diners were admonished to "keep their elbows down."

It was indeed to create an illusion of personal space. Most houses did not devote areas specifically to eating, so space was at a premium. There was no fixed dining table, just some boards laid on trestles (hence the term "set the table").

In most texts you were also told to keep upsetting conversation to a minimum, use comforting words, and be lighthearted. Obviously never been to Thanksgiving dinner at my uncle's house when politics comes up.