Q&A: Stuffed Pastas

[bleachboy]

Hear hear! MobyP, very very well done indeed!

[MobyP]

Thanks chaps. It was much fun to do.

[sequim]

Wow, just read the last installment. So much good stuff. Thanks for all this Moby. I am so behind in this class since I've just made my regular pasta, never mind the stuffed. I have to ask this - when you were putting together this class, did you already have these photos taken or did you really have all these plates of pasta in your kitchen for the week, cuz I sure would have liked to have flown over for some of your leftovers!

The raviolo of artichoke confit really caught my eye, thinking of veggies that are starting to show up in the market. Plus I love artichokes.

I guess what this class has really taught me is that you can make pasta dishes with everything - it opens up a new world of creativity. And the ingredients are just so simple and so available.

Now I have a question about plating. That is, dishes for pasta. I don't have any. My sister got some for Christmas and we have all loved them. In fact, I had to borrow them recently. Does anyone have a good source (online or wherever) for them? I've seen some online and they're wildly expensive.

[MobyP]

The artichoke recipe is incredibly flexible. Once you have them, you can use the oil for a vinaigrette; if you saute some garlic and pancetta in some of the oil, then add the diced artichoke, you have a great pasta sauce - or to go full hog: saute some pancetta, a clove or two of sliced garlic, a little diced onion, render for 7 or 8 minutes. Then deglaze with half a glass of wine, bubble until almost gone, add a cup of strong chicken stock, reduce by half, add the diced artichoke, and a splash of cream - check for seasoning - and serve over orchiette with parmagiano for an incredible pasta sauce.

In fact, add four wheels and a V-8, you have an all terrain vehicle. You can do anything with that recipe. Oh, and you can also make ravioli!

No- I didn't do all of them in one week. That would've been a little much. I did it over three weekends, giving myself two or three dishes per weekend. And I took pictures as I went. You can see in the beginning, we had lovely bright weather - but by the time I got to the artichokes, it's cloudy and rainy.

I guess what this class has really taught me is that you can make pasta dishes with everything - it opens up a new world of creativity. And the ingredients are just so simple and so available.

Exactly! With Everything. What ever is in season or available: vegetables, meats, fish, cheeses, wines... it can be the sloppiest food imaginable, or the most beautiful. It's really just about using your imagination - you can always go back to the classics - and there are plenty of them. Just walk down the supermarket aisle and look at the choices - those rubbery 'fresh pastas'. Blech. I bet you could reproduce any of the recipes, and make them much better. The main thing is to have fun, though. And enjoy the eating.

[sequim]

No- I didn't do all of them in one week. That would've been a little much. I did it over three weekends, giving myself two or three dishes per weekend. And I took pictures as I went. You can see in the beginning, we had lovely bright weather - but by the time I got to the artichokes, it's cloudy and rainy. 

Just walk down the supermarket aisle and look at the choices - those rubbery 'fresh pastas'.  Blech.

I'm getting rid of all those packaged pasta I have, as the older they are, the longer they take to cook, and now they are all so bland tasting by comparison!

Hell, I wasn't looking at the weather, I only saw the food. And your beautiful 6-burner stove, ha.

[brioboy]

Would it be considered heresy to use a Simac (or similar) electric pasta making machine? I have made noodles with such a device and good lord they weren't half bad - which should be the case for $200. Any special considerations for making sheet pasta with this kind of device?

I will now run from this forum before others start throwing bits of dried up dough at me.

[MobyP]

Hi Brioboy -

what's a simac? Never heard of it before. Otherwise I'm all for electricity. Oh, and the Swiss. And toasters.

[Edit to add] You mean one of these?

They're also known as extruders. I've had pasta made from them a few times - including at Jamie Olivers place - but it's really never been to my taste. What mix of flours are you using?

[brioboy]

Moby - can't say I was terribly ambitious; just wanted to try the basics with straight unbleached all purpose or bread flour and see what came out. If I had use of the machine for longer (it was a loan) I would have tried mixing in sundried tomato paste et. al. or used graduated amounts of durum and/or cornmeal. My host had lost the bit that makes strips wide enough for ravioli which saddened me as that was always the best fun with an Atlas and a spare afternoon - as your gorgeous pix conclusively prove.

[MobyP]

Thanks. I think many people tend towards the durum wheat flours for the extruder type machines as it makes a slightly sturdier dough - I don't know if you had any difficulties with tearing etc. Hope you get your hands on a roller sometime soon - and let us know how it turns out.

[bleudauvergne]

Hi Moby - I wanted to pop in to say that I have been making whole wheat pasta with whole grain duram semolina and whole wheat flour (T150). It's turning out wonderfully. Thank you so much for the classes and the inspiration.

-Lucy

[MobyP]

Lucy - that's great. I've never seen whole grain durum semolina - do you have a specialist shop near you?

What kind of pastas have you made - and did you take any pictures???

[bleudauvergne]

Lucy - that's great. I've never seen whole grain durum semolina - do you have a specialist shop near you?

What kind of pastas have you made - and did you take any pictures???

Yes, I put pictures in the Montigac thread,

here (click),

and here (click).

Thank you once again for getting me started making pasta - it's something that I will always be able to do now, and it took your class to inspire me.

Edited June 28, 2004 by bleudauvergne (log)

[Chufi]

I'm thinking of making ravioli with a stuffing of veal and leek, and serving it with a simple butter/sage sauce and pan-fried fresh chanterelles. I'm thinking of braising the veal with leeks and white wine, and then pureeing in the food processor with egg, parmesan, and maybe chives (to freshen up the leek flavor).

I don't have a recipe for it, it's just an idea that keeps coming back to me. Does this sound like a good idea? And what kind of stuffed pasta would be best for this filling?

[MobyP]

It sounds great, but any long slow braising of the veal (and I'm presuming you'll go for shank or cheek, something that will take a while) will kill the delicate flavour of leek. Why not, once you have the veal done, saute some leeks in butter until they've wilted, and then puree with the veal? You probably won't need an egg, as the veal will be gelatinous enough as is. Just add a bit of the braising liquid, and a few tablespoons of the braising veg. The puree will incorporate/absorb more liquid than you imagine.

As to shape, how about a scalloped round ravioli? With special fillings, I think you want to be able to present them individually on a plate, say a circle of five or six, with a drizle of sauce. Alternatively, if you want something a litttle more rustic, the pansotti would work. Let me know how it goes, and best of luck.

[Chufi]

It sounds great, but any long slow braising of the veal (and I'm presuming you'll go for shank or cheek, something that will take a while) will kill the delicate flavour of leek. Why not, once you have the veal done, saute some leeks in butter until they've wilted, and then puree with the veal?

←

ofcourse. Now why didn't I think of that?

Thanks. I'm making them for a dinnerparty next week. I'll report back!

[Smithy]

I'm doing a slight cross-post with my questions, so that I catch a broader audience and so later readers can find the other thread. Over on the Fresh/Stuffed Pasta and Gnocchi, Cookoff XIII thread a bunch of us have been learning to make stuffed pasta. I've found MobyP's instructions to be invaluable, far better than anything in the books I've tried. So far I've made stuffed pasta twice and been gratified with the results, but I came away with some questions.

For background, I should explain that I made one batch of dough, used a quarter of it the first night with a smoked fish filling, and used half of it 2 nights later (48 hours) with a crab cake stuffing. In between times the leftover quarters were tightly wrapped and stored in the refrigerator.

Questions from both sessions:

1. How do you know when the pasta is done?

2. What happens if you overcook the pasta?

3. How careful do you have to be with it when you're draining it? I've been fishing the pieces out, one by one, and setting in a colander. They haven't been well-drained, perhaps because I didn't give them long enough. I was afraid they'd stick together, although they haven't so far.

The second time around, I noticed that the dough contracted slightly after I'd rolled it out - I hadn't seen that the first time. The finished results were also, well - doughier, or gummier, or tougher, or something. Still good, still much better than anything from the store, but not as good as the first time around. I can think of some differences between the two nights, but I'd like to know which really influenced the final results.

4. Why was the dough not as good the second night?

- Dough doesn't really like "resting" 48 hours, even in the fridge?

- Dough wasn't rolled out as thinly, and seemed tougher?

- Dough was wrong shape for this filling (round pillows, small edges first time, triangles with unstuffed corners the second)

- Difference in poaching liquid (broth the first time, water the second)

- Some other reason I haven't thought of

I have a full-blown lab experiment going in my house now, but if someone else already knows the answer, I can get on with other experiments, like changing the flour type, etc.

Final question: how does one determine the optimum shape for a stuffed pasta, given a particular filling?

[MobyP]

Hey Smithy -

before I give your answers a try, and as you uploaded good pics of your process, I thought we could be nit-picky and see if we can come up with anything to help. By the way, your finished dishes look great.

In the first picture, I notice your dough is looking really soft, almost damp (and I'm not talking about the liquid brushed around the filling, but the dough itself.

What recipe are you using? If mine (god forbid), you might want to ease back slightly on the liquids (eggs/oil), or incorporate slightly more flour into the mix. There's a balance to be reached between over-damp and over-dry. You'll find it easier to work with if the dough is a touch less damp.

You can see in the next picture how the dough surrounding the filling is slightly flaccid. What happens (and I used to do this all the time) is that if you have to leave the pastas sitting for an hour, the filling will 'melt' through the pasta, or turn the pasta to mush before you can cook it.

Also, because you started with such a damp dough, the pastas will over-cook much faster than otherwise. I'd say in the picture below (which if placed before me I'd eat in a second, btw), you could have pulled them out 30 seconds or a minute sooner. Fresh pasta, when you over-cook it, can get water-logged. But you have to really over cook them before they become unservable. Jonathan Day insists that an Italian chef gave him a demo, and said it was impossible to overcook these things, but I'm not so sure. I think they can get pretty mushy. Allegedly. It happened to a friend. No, really.

1.  How do you know when the pasta is done?

Experience. It took me much too long to figure out that I was overcooking my pasta. Now, as I said in the cook-off thread, it can be as short as 2-3 mins, depending on how thin the pasta is, and how long ago I made them. What is almost always the case is that if I think they could use another 30 seconds, I pull them out immediately. They will keep cooking out of the water, and absorb the sauce. You should still get a little bite from the pasta.

2.  What happens if you overcook the pasta?

Not much. But I think you'll find with experience that less is more.

3.  How careful do you have to be with it when you're draining it?  I've been fishing the pieces out, one by one, and setting in a colander.  They haven't been well-drained, perhaps because I didn't give them long enough.  I was afraid they'd stick together, although they haven't so far.

You do need to be a little careful. Also remember, never let the water boil when you're poaching them. That will cause the worst damage. But I do the same as you. Fishing - well - sometimes 2 or 3 out of a large pot, and placing them directly into a warmed bowl, or the pan containing the sauce.

The second time around, I noticed that the dough contracted slightly after I'd rolled it out - I hadn't seen that the first time.  The finished results were also, well - doughier, or gummier, or tougher, or something.  Still good, still much better than anything from the store, but not as good as the first time around.  I can think of some differences between the two nights, but I'd like to know which really influenced the final results.

4. Why was the dough not as good the second night?

- Dough doesn't really like "resting" 48 hours, even in the fridge?

- Dough wasn't rolled out as thinly, and seemed tougher?

When you leave it to rest, you're allowing the gluten to develop; those gummy, elastic bonds that hold your pasta together. Presumably, 2 days of rest will encourage a greater amount of gluten than 2 hours, so you'll find that springiness in the dough. I've used dough as old as 2 days. It does change the characteristics a little, but so long as you roll it thin enough, and perhaps cook it for an extra 20-30 seconds, you should get a good result.

- Dough was wrong shape for this filling (round pillows, small edges first time, triangles with unstuffed corners the second)

No.

- Difference in poaching liquid (broth the first time, water the second)

This might have a difference, but I'm not sure what. . The only person I know of who regularly cooks his pasta in broth (other than every Northern Italian in anolini in brodo) is Ducasse.

Final question: how does one determine the optimum shape for a stuffed pasta, given a particular filling?

←

There are precedents, of course, but they only exist to be ignored. The most scientific approach, and my personal recommendation would be: cooking and eating them all, and saying, "I like that one!"

[Smithy]

Thanks for your comments and compliments, MobyP! I was hoping to try a new batch tonight, but got home too late. It's a shame - you should see the lovely summer squash sitting in the refrigerator, and the beef ribs waiting to be braised. I'm really keen on these stuffing ideas.

To answer your questions, and exchange more ideas: I did use your recipe, with the exception that I had pasta flour (not 00) and used semolina only as a dusting agent. The funny thing is, it didn't stick to itself unless folded too long, and it never stuck to my hands or to the pasta machine, so it didn't seem damp to me. That must be one of those 'feel' things. I'll still try it a touch drier next time. Although you wrote "God forbid" about my getting those results with your recipe, your recipe and instructions have provided me with the most satisfactory results ever in my attempts. That pasta maker has sat unused in the cabinet for over a year, intimidating me every time I open the door. Good on ya, Sir.

I don't think resting time was more than 1/2 hour - more like 15 minutes - in either case, so that may not have been a factor. However, the first night's batch (1/2 hour resting) was rolled more thinly than the second batch (48 hours' resting). It sounds as though that was backwards.

The doneness test and the draining are welcome pointers.

I forgot, both times, to keep the liquid to a simmer. My electric stove is on the wimpy side, and so a full boil went rapidly to no bubbles at all when I add a few pasta pieces. I'll remember that next time.

It's good to know that the shape isn't all that important. I want to duplicate some fabulous ravioli (various stuffings) that some friends and I experienced last weekend. Those little round pillows were just perfect, but had these teeny margins, barely noticeable. There's hope that I won't have to get it so good...once I get this technique, and then the stuffing, and then the sauce..

Thanks so much for your comments. I'll report back on the next attempt(s). This is *really* fun!

Edited to add: I just looked back at the photos in the first Stuffed Pastas lesson. You're right, my dough DOES look wet and flaccid. I'm glad you posted those photos. I'll use them as a gauge next time.

Edited September 11, 2005 by Smithy (log)

[Chufi]

I'm going to make stuffed pasta for 22 this weekend. (it's for a big multi-course dinner on the 25th so I'm going to freeze them)

My question is about quantities. I would like about 6-7 small round ravioli per person, that's about 150 ravioli. I'm thinking that double the amount of the basic pasta recipe will be enough for that (800 grams flour, 8 eggs, 2 yolks). Can I make the whole dough in one batch or will it become too difficult to work with, and should I do two batches? And am I sort of right about my quantities here?

[MobyP]

The ingredients are so (relatively) inexpensive, why not make too much dough, like a kilo, and then either throw out or use the remainder for something else? Better that than not having enough. If you have an electric mixer with a dough hook, then I'd go with that for these sorts of quantities. Alternatively I'd make two batches.

2 other things. If you make a wet filling, i.e. pumpkin or butternut squash, the dough tends to crack in the freezer, and break when you defrost them. The trick with frozen stuffed pastas is to make the filling as dry as possible. So, if you want to use a squash filling, or a soft ricotta etc, let it drain for an hour or so in a sieve before using. Also, consider adding bread crumbs or extra cheese - something to dry them out a bit.

Second, make 10% more than you need. With these sorts of quantities, you're bound to have breakages. Also, consider how many pots you'll need to cook them in.

[Chufi]

The ingredients are so (relatively) inexpensive, why not make too much dough, like a kilo, and then either throw out or use the remainder for something else? Better that than not having enough. If you have an electric mixer with a dough hook, then I'd go with that for these sorts of quantities. Alternatively I'd make two batches.

2 other things. If you make a wet filling, i.e. pumpkin or butternut squash, the dough tends to crack in the freezer, and break when you defrost them. The trick with frozen stuffed pastas is to make the filling as dry as possible. So, if you want to use a squash filling, or a soft ricotta etc, let it drain for an hour or so in a sieve before using. Also, consider adding bread crumbs or extra cheese - something to dry them out a bit.

Second, make 10% more than you need. With these sorts of quantities, you're bound to have breakages. Also, consider how many pots you'll need to cook them in.

←

Thanks Moby, for you advice and input, very much appreciated - as always. (Did I ever mention that you are known as 'pasta guru Moby' in my house? When my husband sees me making fresh pasta, he always asks: did the pasta guru tell you to do it in such and such a way? )

I made them today, using 1 kilo '00' flour, 10 large eggs and 2 extra yolks. I have no stand mixer, but I figured I needed a workout, so I made just one batch and did all the mixing and kneading by hand

I have succesfully frozen various stuffed pasta's, so I decided I just needed to make the filling the same consistency as I had before. But thinking of your advice, I did drain and squeeze every single item that went into the stuffing.

Stuffing came out great, very rich and flavoursome. I test-boiled a couple before starting the Real Work, to see if the seasoning needed adjustment. I think that is a very good strategy - like cooking a piece of the mix you use for a terrine.

I got about 160 ravioli from this amount of dough. I ended up with about 250 grams of scraps, so I guess I could've made a couple more, but I was tired. The whole process took all day.

One more thing. The first batch that I put in the freezer cracked a little. But I soon figured out that was because I had put them in the freezer right after making them. I let the other ones dry out at room temp for some time before freezing, and none of them cracked - so far.

Pictures here in the husbands birthday dinner thread

Edited February 12, 2006 by Chufi (log)

[Chufi]

Just in case anybody ever wants to cook ravioli for 24, here are a few tips

I used a very large pot. Don't forget to put the water to the boil long before you need it, it takes a long time. I dropped in all 170 frozen ravioli at once. The water stopped boiling, ofcourse, but I figured that was not so bad as you want to poach them, not boil them hard.

I started testing after 8 minutes, they were not nearly done. I think altogether they took maybe 14 minutes. I just kept testing one to make sure.

I had two large, oblong pans on the stove with sage butter. About 250 grams in each pan. I used some of the cooking water to toss the ravioli, and the butter and starchy water emulsified nicely.

I did not plate them but served straight from the hot pan, to minimize loss of heat.

picture here in this post

They were delicious!

oh and by the way, not a single one broke!

Edited February 27, 2006 by Chufi (log)