An Appeal for a Peel, Pizza that Is

[slkinsey]

I hate sounding like a pessimist but I don't think you're going to get the thermal mass you want from a 3/4" stone. 3/4" inch stones work wonderfully for bread, but for pizza, I'm skeptical.

There is far less thermal mass in a thin pizza than there is in a two pound boule. Furthermore, since the pizza is spread more or less evenly across the surface of the baking stone, the conduction of thermal energy from the stone to the pizza is much more efficient that the conduction of thermal energy from the stone to the boule. 0.75" is fairly thick for a baking stone, BTW. Again, where you are going to run into trouble is with the third and fourth pizza (or boule).

[scott123]

Scott, unless you build yourself a wood-burning masonry oven in the back yard, you won't be able to do it. Not in a home oven. That assumes, of course, that you are trying to reproduce a Neapolitan-style or NYC-style pizza.

I am most certainly trying to reproduce a NYC-style pizza. Wood burning ovens are successful for two reasons. Intense heat and thick, heat retentive brick. I am capable of reproducing both in my home oven. The only limitation I might have is that because I'm not dealing with multiple layers of brick, my hearth will not stay hot for hours at a time. I also may have to allow a few minutes for my stone to reheat between pies.

I have been pondering this for decades and intensely researching it for weeks. I still have a little tweaking to do before I set sail, but believe me, my dream is about to become a reality :)

[slbunge]

I hate sounding like a pessimist but I don't think you're going to get the thermal mass you want from a 3/4" stone. 3/4" inch stones work wonderfully for bread, but for pizza, I'm skeptical.

There is far less thermal mass in a thin pizza than there is in a two pound boule. Furthermore, since the pizza is spread more or less evenly across the surface of the baking stone, the conduction of thermal energy from the stone to the pizza is much more efficient that the conduction of thermal energy from the stone to the boule. 0.75" is fairly thick for a baking stone, BTW. Again, where you are going to run into trouble is with the third and fourth pizza (or boule).

My response is 'it depends'. If cooking neopolitan-ish pizza, I think Sam is absolutely correct. What matters, there, is that you get radiation from a hot surface with a decent amount of thermal mass. The radiation cooks the crust from below. You can see this when using a stone in a standard oven because it takes a while for the cheese to melt and by then, the crust is done.

For the bread, you are looking for heat to surround the loaf via convection. For this, you need the air within the oven to recover quickly giving you the spring and the lovely chewy/crunchy crust that the artisinal bakers get and we all wish we could produce.

Regardless, I think that a 3/4" stone would produce acceptable results for either case and the most bang for the buck would be to see if you can get a sort of box of significant thermal mass around the bread/pizza. You will have significantly better radiation for pizza cooking, you will benefit from 'surround radiation' for the bread, and you will limit the airflow in the box allowing quicker convective recovery.

[scott123]

There is far less thermal mass in a thin pizza than there is in a two pound boule. Furthermore, since the pizza is spread more or less evenly across the surface of the baking stone, the conduction of thermal energy from the stone to the pizza is much

more efficient that the conduction of thermal energy from the stone to the boule.

I agree. A boule may initially rely on the conduction of energy from the initially pre-heated hearth for the oven spring, but after that, the greater impact is coming from the radiant ceiling/wall energy and convective rising air. Which is why a baking stone with less thermal mass works perfectly for bread. But with pizza, radiation certainly plays a role but nowhere near the role as conduction plays.

I wouldn't use a frying pan to roast a turkey nor would I use a roasting pan to sear a steak :)

[slkinsey]

I have been pondering this for decades and intensely researching it for weeks. I still have a little tweaking to do before I set sail, but believe me, my dream is about to become a reality :)

Dude... I've been making pizza at home for over ten years, not to mention that I've been living in NYC all that time and travel frequently to Italy. So, when I say that I don't think you will be able to reproduce real pizza Napulitana -- especially in a stanard home oven -- I know whereof I speak. There are certainly things you can do that will produce a very good pizza in a similar style. But, I have to say that I think you are in for a lot of disappointment if you think you are going to make something that looks like it came out of Patsy's East Harlem. I'd be pleased to be surprized, however, so I wish you the best of luck.

[slkinsey]

with pizza, radiation certainly plays a role but nowhere near the role as conduction plays.

Actually, not quite. The big difference between a masonry oven used for pizza as opposed for bread is that the fire remains burning inside the oven when it is used for pizza. One purpose of this is for the radiant heat to reflect off the roof of the pizza oven back onto the pizza, cooking the toppings. This is why Neapolitan pizzeria typically add the tomato element raw -- it cooks in the reflected heat. Measurements at the top of the oven often reach upwards of 950F.

[JosephB]

500-550 degrees is typical for one of those Vulcan pizza-parlor gas ovens. Only coal fired stone ovens ever get anywhere NEAR 800 degrees. And thats at the apex of their stoking temperature.

I don't know much about Vulcan ovens nor can I find any info doing a web search, but I have done a substantial amount of research on wood burning ovens. From the pizza cooks that I've spoken with, wood burning ovens can and do reach temperatures exceeding 900 degrees.

Yes, this is correct. A wood fired oven can get plenty hot, certainly well within the range of temperatures maintained in the coal-fired establishments. The Neapolitan pizzerie use wood.

If wood produces the same result as coal, why are the coal-burning pizza places in NYC (and elsewhere) perceived as superior to all challengers? Are there any serious challengers using wood? If I wanted to open a pizza shop to compete with, say, Patsy's in Harlem (putting aside Patsy's history), would I stand a chance with a wood-burning oven?

[slkinsey]

500-550 degrees is typical for one of those Vulcan pizza-parlor gas ovens. Only coal fired stone ovens ever get anywhere NEAR 800 degrees. And thats at the apex of their stoking temperature.

I don't know much about Vulcan ovens nor can I find any info doing a web search, but I have done a substantial amount of research on wood burning ovens. From the pizza cooks that I've spoken with, wood burning ovens can and do reach temperatures exceeding 900 degrees.

Yes, this is correct. A wood fired oven can get plenty hot, certainly well within the range of temperatures maintained in the coal-fired establishments. The Neapolitan pizzerie use wood.

If wood produces the same result as coal, why are the coal-burning pizza places in NYC (and elsewhere) perceived as superior to all challengers? Are there any serious challengers using wood? If I wanted to open a pizza shop to compete with, say, Patsy's in Harlem (putting aside Patsy's history), would I stand a chance with a wood-burning oven?

To be honest I am not quite sure why this is, Joe.

Pizza Napulitana, as you know, doesn't feature Patsy's-level char. Maybe the NYC-style coal places are even hotter than the Neapolitan places, and that is what contributes to the distinctive classic NYC style. Perhaps it is simply the case that one needs to burn a lot more wood to get the appropriate temperature. All I can say is that using wood doesn't seem to limit what they do in Napoli, and I have it on relatively good authority that the ovens there are around 750F. If the NYC coal-fired places are more like 850F, a hundred degrees can make a big difference in the results. Whether one is definitively better than the other is hard to say... but it does make the NYC style even more difficult to achieve. FWIW, and I am not sure how much difference it makes, most Italian masonry ovens with which I am familiar have more of a dome shape than the coal-fired ovens I have seen in NYC.

[JosephB]

FWIW, and I am not sure how much difference it makes, most Italian masonry ovens with which I am familiar have more of a dome shape than the coal-fired ovens I have seen in NYC.

Yes, something similar to some of what Peter Moore builds. These models seem to be designed to remain open during cooking. Obviously, a door on the oven would make it hotter, right?

[JosephB]

Perhaps it is simply the case that one needs to burn a lot more wood to get the appropriate temperature.

Not knowing much about the burning of coal or wood, my intuition tells me that a wood stove would have to be stoked much more often than coal.

[dano1]

Wow, all this over a peel :). I've cooked pizzas professionally(not conveyor) and at home for years. Me thinks too much thought is being put into something that, in one form or another, has been done for thousands of years.

It's all about the food. It's what YOU do with the product that counts. Then again what do i know...

danny

[scott123]

So, when I say that I don't think you will be able to reproduce real pizza Napulitana -- especially in a stanard home oven -- I know whereof I speak.

I certainly don't doubt your expertise in this subject. I think we might have crossed our wires a bit when referring to "NYC-style" pizza. I'm sure this has been debated many times before here and elsewhere, but for me, NYC-style pizza is John's. I've had pizza from wood burning ovens and coal burning ovens but have always preferred John's (during the years I lived there). I consider their product to be definitive NYC-style pizza. We all do have our own tastes, though. Reproducing John's pizza is my goal.

Although your tomato example certainly displays beautifully the role that radiant energy plays in a masonry oven pizza, I still think that if one were to compare the radiant energy being absorbed by the tomato with the energy being conducted into the crust, the conduction aspect would win handily. If the ceiling is 950 degrees and the hearth is 800 (not uncommon) then there is little probability, given the distance from the ceiling to the tomato that the tomato would be getting anywhere close to an equivalent amount of energy.

Conduction/radiation ratios aside, do you at least agree that the most inconsequential role of all in pizza thermodynamics is played by convection?

[slkinsey]

Ah, well yes... I'd say you have a pretty good shot at reproducing John's. If by John's you mean a relavitively thin pizza with little or no char and none of the etherial middle layer of puffyness that comes from a truly superheated oven. John's is, in my estimation, pizza that could easily be turned out with a gas-fired stainless pizza oven. It's basically a variation on a standard pizza, but with a thinner crust and fewer toppings (i.e., Di Fara without the kickass sauce, cheese and other deluxe toppings). Personally I don't think John's pizza is all that exceptional, but I would agree that it can probably be reproduced in a home oven given the right equipment and technique. Again, however, you run into the problem of consistency if you would like to bake more than one pizza. If, however, you're willing to wait half an hour between each pizza, you should be able to turn out John's facsimiles until the cows come home.

While I do agree that conduction is the most significant, if you are going to be cooking the pizza in 3-5 minutes, and especially if you are going to use somewhat moist ingredients like fresh mozzarella or "raw" pomodori pelati, strong radiant heat from the top is very important. There is a certain effect that is produced when the toppings cook on the crust (raw sausage, for example) that is not possible with precooking. Convection, as you suggest, is the least important. This is true of all baking tasks. However, even this smallest thermal element can make a big difference. Try baking a boule or roasting a chicken with the door to the oven open a crack to let out the hot air and you'll see. The pizzaioli at Patsy's East Harlem, I noticed, are very careful to leave the oven door open only the minimum amount necessary. With other ovens, such as the abovementioned dome shaped ovens with proportionally tiny oven doors, it is less important to have the door closed all the time.

[phaelon56]

I've had nicely charred crust at the John's on Bleecker on repeat occasions but when I've eaten at their place in midtown (44th Street?) there was nary a bit of black on the crust (and the pizza was far more pedestrian).

I'm not assuming that I'll really truly match what a good pizzeria can produce but my goal is to make the best possible pizza at home in limited quantities. The conventional gas range has not done it but I think I have a chance of getting much closer with the grill and the firebrick. Just picked up the new grill today. Yikes - this thing is heavy duty - weighs 130 pounds unassembled - this is not including any propane tank (although I plan to run it on natural gas). It will definitely stand up to the weight of 2" firebrick very easily and the aluminum casting of the casing is far heavier than what I've seen on most other grills - should help with heat retention.

[scott123]

although I plan to run it on natural gas

Sounds like a good plan :)

Edited March 13, 2004 by scott123 (log)

[phaelon56]

The manufacturer makes a natural gas conversion kit that's $50. It's intended for use with the next model down in their line and not recommended for mine because mine has an external side burner. I'll just run natural gas to the main burner assembly and run the side burner off a five pound baby propane tank for those rare occasions when I need it. Fortunately, running a gas line to my deck will be a breeze. It's snowing here again today (third day in a row). I won't have this up and running for another month or so but will start a gas grill pizza/bread baking thread once my initial results are in.

[scott123]

but will start a gas grill pizza/bread baking thread once my initial results are in

I'll be looking forward to hearing about it.

I'm also about a month away from making pizza myself and will post those results as well.

[JosephB]

Right before taking the pizze to the oven, the pizzaiolo stretched a string over the peel and ran it under both pieces of dough.

Will you clarify this? I'm not quite visualizing it. Did he hold the string at both ends and pull it down the length of the peel to sort of separate the dough from the peel after the toppings had been applied?

Exactly. Stretched the string across the peel using both hands. Pulled the string tight against the peel. Ran the string down the length of the peel, under the dough, to separate the dough from the peel. After accomplishing this, went immediately to the oven.

I wonder if they do this to avoid flouring the board. The flour would easily burn on the oven floor, and quickly fill the oven with soot, requiring the oven to be brushed out periodically.

[phaelon56]

I wonder if they do this to avoid flouring the board. The flour would easily burn on the oven floor, and quickly fill the oven with soot, requiring the oven to be brushed out periodically.

Most likely the case. It's actually cornmeal that's used in most places rather than flour - the granules work nicely at allowing the dough to slide off the peel. The dilemma is exactly what you pointed out - the oven needs to be swept out periodically. I'm planning to try the string technique as my oven was always a mess with stray cornmeal when I was making pizzas regularly.

[formerly grueldelux]

Regarding the pizza peel, I vote for the metal ones with the wood handles because I like the fact that you can bend the handle. In my oven, with the stone on the floor it is below the level of the open (and hot) oven door, which means that my fingers are always at risk. I bend the handle where it meets the blade, creating about a 20 degree angle, enough to give clearance for my fingers.

Re: pizza. I'm no expert but after years of experimentation I can say that, in my experience, no home pizza comes even close to the pizza from a kamado (can't vouch for other brands of ceramic cookers, but I'm sure many are just as good.) They've capable of reaching insane temperatures but the manufacturer doesn't really recommend going over 600-700. I find preheating for over an hour at 600 gives you enough heat to bake a steady stream of 5 minute pizzas. It's way bettter than anything I can get out of my oven.

-michael

[phaelon56]

Believe me.... I wanted a Kamado style cooker but $$ is a big issue right now (new house to pay for and we're in the midst of temporary pay cuts at work). I couldn't pass up the $199 price on this grill. I'll be working at about waist level so the flex factor of a metal peel wil not be a necessity for me.

Next up is a cheap bread machine to knead the pizza dough. I'm kickign myself for missing the Sunbeam model that Kmart ran on close-out at $8. My brother had one - not all that heavy duty in terms of the lid hinges and that sort of thing but it has a nice little motore and does a great job of kneading and proofing.

[slkinsey]

Owen... why a bread machine and not a stand mixer like a KitchenAid?

[Toasted]

Believe me.... I wanted a Kamado style cooker but $$ is a big issue right now (new house to pay for and we're in the midst of temporary pay cuts at work). I couldn't pass up the $199 price on this grill. I'll be working at about waist level so the flex factor of a metal peel wil not be a necessity for me.

Next up is a cheap bread machine to knead the pizza dough. I'm kickign myself for missing the Sunbeam model that Kmart ran on close-out at $8. My brother had one - not all that heavy duty in terms of the lid hinges and that sort of thing but it has a nice little motore and does a great job of kneading and proofing.

Money is also an issue with us, now and probably always with three little ones and I love my bread machine. It was $100.00 at Target but I've used it at least three times a week to proof dough and make pizza dough and it's holding up well after two years.

[phaelon56]

My reasons are mutliple, Sam. First is the fact that the bread machines are apparently ideal for the proofing process because they control the heat really nicely during that stage, unlike the stand mixer, where I'd have to transfer the dough to some other area. Second is the fact that at present I don't see much use for a stand mixer in my kitchen, apart from needing to knead dough on occasion.

Money is also a factor at present - I can snag a functional bread machine (functional if I'm only using it for kneading and proofing) for way under $50 but figure about $250 for the Kitchen-Aid mixer, right?

Things could change. Until a month or so ago when I moved into my house, my kitchen was so tiny that it was a moot point. I had little space and wasn't cooking. I now have a cavernous kitchen with about a mile of counter space. I've already found myself cooking much more and it could evolve. That said.... I have a small electric hand mixer that gets used only once or twice a year and just last night finally pulled out the immersion blender I received as a gift almost two years ago.

For a person who anticipates doing very little baking, do you think a good food processor might be a better choice than a stand mixer?

[slkinsey]

Actually, if money and space are a concern, I'd suggest you do the kneading by hand. Hear me out here... The thing to do is prepare the dough around 24 hours before you make the pizza. Use only a little bit of yeast. Now, if you knead by hand for around 3-5 minutes this won't develop the gluten properly for making pizza. But the mechanical and chemical action of a 24 hour ferment with "whenever you think of it" punchdowns will finish developing and crosslinking the gluten as much as you could possibly desire. It sounds like it won't work, but I was turned on to long-fermented "no knead" bread several years ago and it really does turn out. This way, all you require is a large bowl and some plastic wrap. No need to worry about the temperature or anything like that, because it will all even out after 24 hours.