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An Appeal for a Peel, Pizza that Is


scott123

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My local so-called wholesale and restaurant food supplier (Maine's) gets $25 for a short handled peel

I know what you mean. I have a "wholesale" supplier near me that's equally mislabeled.

Thanks, that abestkitchen link is the best prices/best collection of peels I've seen in one place.

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Slkinsey, thanks for you thoughts on soapstones. I am definitely intrigued enough to be buying one in the near future.

Although I am fascinated to hear about thermal mass issues discussed in the NY Pizza Survey thread, I tried reading through it and couldn't make it past the first few pages. Currently low carbing, I am perfectly comfortable talking about pizza peels, but seeing pictures of pizza, really good pizza, that's too much to bear. I will eventually look into that. Thanks.

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This has been a very good thread for me, particularly now that warmer weather is arriving in the Northeast. I just found one of these

Model 8100 GoGrill

for $199.... supposedly it can be converted to natural gas use and also is capable of reaching close to 800 degrees internal temp. I'm gonna get me some fire brick and make me some pizzas soon.

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Busboy, what didn't you like about the metal peel?

I just found that my dough stuck to it, making it difficult to slide it into the oven. The fault may lie with my dough but, nevertheless, the wooden peel worked much better.

Busboy

Have you tried a light dusting of corn meal or flour on the peel before you place your dough?

I don't think your dough is at fault. If you are doing a really thin crust pizza and its not all tacky, then I believe that the dough is not going to be up to your expectations.

I do dust the metal peel, but finf that the wooden one still works better.

I'm on the pavement

Thinking about the government.

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Model 8100 GoGrill   

for $199...

Hmmm... that looks like a really good deal. It's strange, though, that with all of those specs they don't list BTU output. I would look into that.

If it truly does live it up to the 800 degree claim then you might be looking at some great pizza :)

A long time ago I read an article in Vogue about a guy on a quest for the best home cooked pizza. He tried everything he could but had problems getting enough heat. I think he had good results with the grill, though, and that was without the thermal retentive properties of fire brick!

I'd be very curious to hear about your results.

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Hmmm... that looks like a really good deal. It's strange, though, that with all of those specs they don't list BTU output. I would look into that.

If it truly does live it up to the 800 degree claim then you might be looking at some great pizza :)

The company who makes this unit was just acquired by the parent company of Vermont Castings - much larger outfit. I have not se this same gril anywhere else for less than about $400. My local "discount outlet" busilding supply store got in a half dozen on some kind of deal and will nto have more at this price.

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A long time ago I read an article in Vogue about a guy on a quest for the best home cooked pizza. He tried everything he could but had problems getting enough heat. I think he had good results with the grill, though, and that was without the thermal retentive properties of fire brick!

You mean Jeffrey Steingarten?

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Apparently the grill I'm picking up on Friday is actually an 8500 series. An acquaintance just assembled his and started using it. He says the stated output is 40,000 BTU but there are some specifics to the design that may allow it to actually produce the claimed 800 degree temp.

1) Special ceramic briquettes are included - not just lava rock. These retain heat.

2) Bronze burner - stands to reasons that it can get hotter and produce higher temps than the cheesy burner assemblies on cheaper grills.

3) Very heavy duty porcelain grates

I'll be testing this and starting a new thread on "brick oven pizza in gas grills" once I get some results.

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You mean Jeffrey Steingarten?

After doing a web search and finding some info about him, yes, that's the author. Thanks for the name - I wasn't aware of the books he has written, I'll have to check those out.

And regarding Jeffrey Steingarten's grilling success that I mentioned, it was a charcoal grill, not gas. I am fairly certain, though, that he wasn't on to the thermal properties of fire brick. Fire brick preheated to 800 degrees should do very nicely for pizza.

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Phaelon56, it sounds like you've got a winner there. A thought occured to me regarding the fire brick I recommended earlier. You might want to track down some of the 12 x 12 x 2 fire tiles that I ended up using rather than the half brick. Your grill shelf should be able to support it without a problem. Depending on the height of the interior a two inch brick might cramp you a bit for large loaves of bread though.

You also might want to try grilling without the brick, directly on the grill. Some of the best bread I've ever made was naan on a Webber grill.

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Regarding the cleaning cyle and fooling the oven that the door is locked kinda scares me.

My family's new business involves producing pizzas nonstop each and everyday with a commercial deck oven. Both my parents' shop and at the restaurant where I work (where in we have a dedicated *huge* pizza oven that involved a barge, a tug boat and a crane for its unloading when it was first purchased and delivered) are set at 500 degrees as recommended by the dough supplier -- and both with excellent results. The thin crust is crispy while the regular crusts are crisp but chewy in texture. (Oh, just writing about it is sending this carbo addict wanting to have some at this moment!)

I've used both the metal and wooden peels, and for the at home pizza preparations I always dust first with cornmeal while stretching out the dough and dressing it up with the delicious toppings. The metal ones are quite economical from the restaurant supply stores and I have found easier (lighter, longer handled). At home I am still using my current pizza stone until this one will too crack -- and they always do. (Then I'll start looking into the soapstone option.) I place the pizza directly on the stone, whereas at work, and at my family's shop, specific pizza pans are used.

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800 degrees is the realm of pizzeria ovens. For the best pizza, that's exactly where you want to be.

500-550 degrees is typical for one of those Vulcan pizza-parlor gas ovens. Only coal fired stone ovens ever get anywhere NEAR 800 degrees. And thats at the apex of their stoking temperature.

Jason Perlow, Co-Founder eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters

Foodies who Review South Florida (Facebook) | offthebroiler.com - Food Blog (archived) | View my food photos on Instagram

Twittter: @jperlow | Mastodon @jperlow@journa.host

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I recently saw a Food TV show in which they interviewed and spent time with one of the guys at John's Pizza on Bleecker Street in NYC. He advised that their oven run at about 700 to 750 degrees. I can hit 500 degrees in my home oven but can't quite seem to get the results I want even when using the stone. I think the grill on this new beast will easily support the 2" thick stone as it's pretty heavy duty. Clearance will not be an issue as I plan to do pizza or flat bread only.

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500-550 degrees is typical for one of those Vulcan pizza-parlor gas ovens. Only coal fired stone ovens ever get anywhere NEAR 800 degrees. And thats at the apex of their stoking temperature.

I don't know much about Vulcan ovens nor can I find any info doing a web search, but I have done a substantial amount of research on wood burning ovens. From the pizza cooks that I've spoken with, wood burning ovens can and do reach temperatures exceeding 900 degrees.

My 800 degree optimal temperature originated from Jeffrey Steingarten who went around testing ovens with his non-contact thermometer.

The 500-550 Vulcan temperature does intrigue me. Although I do believe that 800 will produce a moister/more porous/crispier crust, if Jason is correct, 800 may not reproduce your favorite pizzeria pie. Without a contact thermometer, I'd say spending a few minutes at your pizzeria and clocking the time for a pizza to be cooked would give you a good idea for the time to match. When cooking your own pie, adjust your temperature to finish your pizza at a similar rate.

While doing research on Vulcan in a failed attempt to discredit Jason's claim :) I did happen across an interesting article relating to using a grill for pizza. Here's the link:

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews...son/6263572.htm

Although the author doesn't sound like much of a pizza connoiseur, he does bring up an interesting point about heat emanating from the top of your oven. I've purchased quarry tiles to place on the oven shelf above my stone but I'm not entirely certain they'll be necessary. An excess of top heat may not be essential. If you've ever looked at a pizzeria oven the distance between the top and bottom shelf appears to be enough to mitigate the impact of heat radiating down from the top stone. I may be wrong, though. If I am, I have the quarry tiles to play around with.

Edited by scott123 (log)
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Intriguing and interesting but seems like a real hose at $129 with shipping included. I just purchased a 3/4" thick stone of identical dimensions (I'm guessing that it's the same thing) for $35 at a local Italian imports store. I am intrigued by the idea of rasing it up and will see what kind of frame I can fabricate. Thanks for the link.

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The 500-550 Vulcan temperature does intrigue me. Although I do believe that 800 will produce a moister/more porous/crispier crust, if Jason is correct, 800 may not reproduce your favorite pizzeria pie. Without a contact thermometer, I'd say spending a few minutes at your pizzeria and clocking the time for a pizza to be cooked would give you a good idea for the time to match. When cooking your own pie, adjust your temperature to finish your pizza at a similar rate.

You're not going to be able to competely reproduce pizza parlor results even at similar temperatures because those big Vulcan units (like Difara in Brooklyn uses) are so huge and circulate so much air that theres almost no loss of heat at all when the pizza guys open it up every few minutes to check on it. You open up your home oven during the baking process just once to check, you're gonna lose all that heat in seconds.

Jason Perlow, Co-Founder eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters

Foodies who Review South Florida (Facebook) | offthebroiler.com - Food Blog (archived) | View my food photos on Instagram

Twittter: @jperlow | Mastodon @jperlow@journa.host

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BTW here are the technical stats on a popular gas fired Pizza oven unit, a Montague, which is very similar to Vulcan:

http://www.bigtray.com/productdetails.asp&...atid.11010.html

Throttling thermostat adjusts from 300°F - 650°F

Cast iron burners rated at 40,000 BTU

80,000 total BTU

Holds 6 each 12" pizzas, or 2 each 18" pizzas

AGA, NSF

The electric ones on that web site also don't go higher than 650. As I said though, they usually don't bake higher than 500 or 550. Its the huge volume of air circulation in those things is what is making the difference.

Jason Perlow, Co-Founder eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters

Foodies who Review South Florida (Facebook) | offthebroiler.com - Food Blog (archived) | View my food photos on Instagram

Twittter: @jperlow | Mastodon @jperlow@journa.host

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500-550 degrees is typical for one of those Vulcan pizza-parlor gas ovens. Only coal fired stone ovens ever get anywhere NEAR 800 degrees. And thats at the apex of their stoking temperature.

I don't know much about Vulcan ovens nor can I find any info doing a web search, but I have done a substantial amount of research on wood burning ovens. From the pizza cooks that I've spoken with, wood burning ovens can and do reach temperatures exceeding 900 degrees.

Yes, this is correct. A wood fired oven can get plenty hot, certainly well within the range of temperatures maintained in the coal-fired establishments. The Neapolitan pizzerie use wood.

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You're not going to be able to competely reproduce pizza parlor results even at similar temperatures because those big Vulcan units (like Difara in Brooklyn uses) are so huge and circulate so much air that theres almost no loss of heat at all when the pizza guys open it up every few minutes to check on it. You open up your home oven during the baking process just once to check, you're gonna lose all that heat in seconds.

Okay, I'll admit that I'm wrong about Vulcan-type ovens going to 800+ degrees, but the idea that commercial ovens recover faster because of air circulation is completely false. Recovery is not about circulating air, it's about the heat retaining properties of stone. When you open the door on any oven the hot air rises and is lost. The constantly hot, thick, stone walls/ceiling/hearth in a commercial oven is what allows for quick recovery. If you have the same size thickness of stone at home, your oven will lose the same amount of heat when you open it.

Take another look at the Montague oven link you posted. Under features and benefits it says:

o 1 1/2" cordierite, three piece deck for hearth baking

o Sides, back, and top lined with fire brick for heat retention and quick recovery time

The recovery comes from the brick/thick hearth.

Edited by scott123 (log)
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If you have the same size thickness of stone at home, your oven will lose the same amount of heat when you open it.

You are still not going to be able to produce the same exact results at home as you would with a commercial oven, exact thickness of stone or not.

Jason Perlow, Co-Founder eGullet Society for Culinary Arts & Letters

Foodies who Review South Florida (Facebook) | offthebroiler.com - Food Blog (archived) | View my food photos on Instagram

Twittter: @jperlow | Mastodon @jperlow@journa.host

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Intriguing and interesting but seems like a real hose at $129 with shipping included.

I agree. I was just bringing it to your attention since the author had a 35,000 BTU grill and wasn't that happy with his results. But as I said, I'm not sure he knows what he's talking about.

I hate sounding like a pessimist but I don't think you're going to get the thermal mass you want from a 3/4" stone. 3/4" inch stones work wonderfully for bread, but for pizza, I'm skeptical. I also don't have a heck of a lot of faith in those "grill-safe" metal clad stones that were mentioned in the article. The metal is supposed to protect the bottom of the stone, whereas my concern is more with thermal shock to the top of the stone when you open the door on a potentially cool early/late summer night.

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You are still not going to be able to produce the same exact results at home as you would with a commercial oven, exact thickness of stone or not.

I, respectfully, disagree :)

Scott, unless you build yourself a wood-burning masonry oven in the back yard, you won't be able to do it. Not in a home oven. That assumes, of course, that you are trying to reproduce a Neapolitan-style or NYC-style pizza. If you're going for a typical American pizza, such as would be baked in one of the aforementioned Vulcan ovens, it is certainly possible to make a passable approximation in a home oven. Where the commercial stainess and gas ovens have a real advantage over a home oven is in their ability to retain heat. The thermal mass of a Vulcan oven is a zillion times higher than any baking stone you could put in your oven. This means that the Vulcan can bake pizza after pizza all day without losing too much heat whereas your home pizza will start to suffer after around the second or third one.

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Phaelon56, sorry, I re-read your post and think I might have misunderstood it. If you're thinking about using the 3/4 inch stone as a ceiling with a 2" thick hearth, that sounds like a brilliant plan.

Edited by scott123 (log)
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