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Oldest living eGulleters tell all


Fat Guy

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More of my 50/60 memories. Almost all of the "Better" (meaning special ocassion) eateries were French. Most cusine what we would today call classic.

The hotels were often the better choice, because they had to maintain a decent

kitchen AND could afford to. Interestingly enough this is a trend that I see being

repeated more and more today.

I remember working the No Shore of Boston in the middle 60s offering Grand Cru

Classe wines for $24./case (a retailer asked me if I was nuts "You want HOW much

for Frog red wine?"...then I went into one of the small French restaurants, where

one was ALWAYS offered a meal...and made a deal to sell that Frog red wine for

$20/case but he had to buy five cases over the next two months. I'm talking

about classic vintages of 53,55,57 and 59. Boston had a large Italian population

and we had more than several restaurants in the North End (not far from The Garden) where we could eat well and cheaply before a Celtics game. Dinner was

usually large plates of pasta, with garlic bread (a real novelty) little amounts of

meat all for under $5...which was about the price of the Celtic ticket.. That became

a relatively expensive night out.

More as it come to mind

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I'm surprised that carhops haven't been mentioned.

You mean you really want to hear about cruising the main drag, turning into Pronto Pup, crusing the lot, pulling into a slot if the crowd was interesting, and ordering curly fries and a chocolate coke? The carhops were peers, and were on foot, not skates. Some newer car windows were not shaped right for the trays and you had to be careful not to lose the tray and its contents. Also, it was difficult for the driver to reach with his right hand across and out the window to bring in the order through the driver's side window. (early '50s)

Marquard's in Palo Alto. Carhops not peers. You could talk them into bringing special orders that weren't on the menu, like a chocolate frost: chocolate soda run through the milkshake mixer, whipped cream and nutmeg. (mid '50s)

eGullet member #80.

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FG:

i'm only 38, but you might also want to check out:

"American Gourmet: Classic Recipes, Deluxe Delights, Flamboyant Favorites, and Swank 'Company' Food from the 50's and 60's" by the Sterns. it's mostly about campy food, but it traces a lot of historical and demographic trends/influences. perhaps you already know this book.

how can i put an eGullet-commission link to Amazon with the above book title?

ok, i just learned how to make an Amazon-commission eGullet link, through Rachel Perlow and Fat Guy _here_ , so i'd like to recommend this book:

American Gourmet, by the Sterns.

it covers a period of American cooking history with wit and research. FG: it would make good background reading, if you don't already know this book.

Edited by gus_tatory (log)

"The cure for anything is salt water: sweat, tears, or the ocean."

--Isak Dinesen

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Although I hardly qualify as the appropriate age (I'm late 30s), I thought I'd throw my $ .02 in...in the early-mid 70s, my dad introduced us to "real" Chinese food--stuff nobody else seemed to be eating except the people running the restaurants! When did that whole Chinese food trend start?

My first tastes of Moo Shu anything, ground chicken sauteed and eaten out of a lettuce leaf, hot & sour soup, and long life noodles for birthday outings seemed so exotic! My friends had only ever had (Lord, can I even type this?) Chicken Chow Mein (does anyone remember those orange CANS in the supermarket???) egg rolls and egg foo yung if they were really adventurous. By the time I was 10, I had been taught by our favorite local restaurant owner how to properly say Gung Hey Fat Choy, and to this day, have surprised people when I've said it.

Good memories, for sure! :wub:

"I'm not eating it...my tongue is just looking at it!" --My then-3.5 year-old niece, who was NOT eating a piece of gum

"Wow--this is a fancy restaurant! They keep bringing us more water and we didn't even ask for it!" --My 5.75 year-old niece, about Bread Bar

"He's jumped the flounder, as you might say."

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When growing up in Freeport, LI, my family never had money for going out to dinner, but my big treat was going out for a $ 1 chow mein lunch at the Mandarin Inn. It wasn't until college and graduate school in the late 1960's that I was introduced to the type of Chinese food we eat now, at Joyce Chen's in Fresh Pond, near Cambridge, Mass. She was a pioneer, at least in New England. There was also a good restaurant serving Peking duck somewhere near the Mystic River Bridge.

Roz

Edited by rshorens (log)
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This is a subject near and dear to my heart. I grew up in the Hudson Valley with both parents in the restaurant business. In 1952 my first white table clothed experience was at Brolios in West Park in the Hudson Valley. My father was the tuxedoed waiter that served us. I always had the snails and the lobster. My Dad was bursting with pride because his young sons liked anchovies in their Ceasar, knew how to disassemble a whole lobster, and used the right silverware. The experience was very formal, we always wore suits and had to be on our best behavior. I remember the lobster was delicious and the vegetables were boring, I liked my mothers better.

My mother worked as a waitress at The Dutch Rathskeller in the Kirkland Hotel in Kingston (It was the premier fine dining place in Ulster County at the time). Max Brugman was the owner and hired ONLY women. He instructed them in wine service, table side cooking and French service (boning fish and flambe etc.). He made them wear fetching Dutch girl uniforms with starched hats and aprons. My mother had a larger left bisep than my Dad (who was skinny) she built it while carrying the heavy trays. She also made much more money than my Dad. This was very difficult for my father to accept. When we dined at the Rathskeller we were fussed over by the staff and always ordered the Indonesian Reistaffel. I loved the Cherries Jubilee.

As I look back on those days with nostalgia, pork and chicken seemed to be more moist and flavorful. Vegetables were boring and usually overcooked, and salads (except for Ceasar) were really boring. An iceberg wedge with hopefully a pound of homemade blue cheese dressing was as good as it got. The dessets were more flambouyant and often flaming. Wines were French and German and cocktails were fun and required. I feel that in comparrison top places today like Trotter or Chez Panise etc. feature a much higher quality of ingredients and more creative use of them. Today wine lists are expanded beyond belief and wine IQs are much higher. Service back then was done by efficient "servants" and not by knowledgable "colleauges" and guests were made to feel like they were being pampered. There was also a tableside show that was all part of the experience. I much prefer the modern take on service except for the embarrassing bias toward women, we still too often find in fine dining (front and back of the house) today. I must also point out that meals cost a whole lot more today in relation to todays average salaries. Weekly fine dining has become a rich persons sport.

The first celebrity chef I became aware of was Andre Soltner at Lutec in the sixties. Later in the seventies and early eighties there were celebrity couples in kitchens like the Waltucks at The Quilted Girraffe and the Pritskers at Dodin Bouffant.

My parents opened their own bar/ restaurant in the late fifties. It was a neighborhood place with excellent prime rib, corned beef and cabbage, pork roast, leg of lamb, homemade soups (great fresh clam chowder every Friday), fresh veggies and real potatoes. At some point in the mid seventies my father started to cut back on quality. I got in a huge fight with him about him using instant potatoes, soup bases,canned clams and bottled dressings. He pointed out that people didn't know the differerence and he could no longer make money at the prices they charged without cutting back on quality. I think that was the beginning of the time when fine dining got finer, and the middle got thicker with corporate places and customers didn't know the difference.

It seems to me that even bathed in the rosey glow of nostalgia, the high end places of yesteryear don't hold a candle to what's going on today... but sadly, there were alot more places with good affordable home cooked food back then. Economics have made it too hard to keep places like that going.

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I grew up in Trenton, N.J. and my earliest restaurant memories date from the late 1940s. My family "ate out" only on Sunday, choosing from an almost unvarying group of restaurants: Fisher's, on Broad St. in Philadelphia; Katz's, in NYC; The Pub, a steakhouse in Cherry Hill, NJ; and and Marsilio's Kitchen, in Trenton. Occasionally, we would take out from Trenton's one Chinese restaurant, Lido Garden, but I remember eating there with my family only once.

Fisher's was a seafood restaurant housed in a neo-Tudor building where the line to get in would extend, it seemed to me, down the entire block. I don't know if they didn't accept reservations at all, or if the concept was simply unknown to my family, but we always waited with everyone else. Eventually, we would be able to wait inside, where I could watch the men at the bar off to one side shucking clams and oysters. I ate my first raw clam at about age 7 here. On the table was a plate with carrots, celery and olives (canned California black) to nibble while studying the menu, as if that were necessary. My parents usually steered me to fried or broiled scallops, one of the less expensive entrees, and I always started with clam chowder, a thick Manhattan chowder, albeit not very tomato-ey, heavy on the thyme. It remains my clam chowder touchstone. My mother sometimes had a lobster. When I was a little older, I did too. Lemon meringue pie was the dessert of choice. Dinner here came to about $5 unless you had lobster, which made it a dollar or two more.

Katz's: I can assure you that Katz's (in appearance) is unchanged, since I was eating there as a little girl when "Send a salami to your boy in the Army" really meant something. We usually sat in the service area -- against the wall, to be served by an ancient waiter whose hands shook so much we feared for our sandwiches, which were the same size then as they are now. The first price I remember for a corned-beef sandwich is $.95. That's 95 cents, yes.

You could get your sandwich on rye (a higher quality bread than today's) or club. Club was a delicious, chewy, semi-hard roll that I always ordered. It was not at all the same as a hero sandwich roll. Pickles and cole slaw were part of the meal. French fries were not. We drank Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray or cream soda. The menu was very basic -- corned beef, pastrami (too spicy for me as a child), hot dogs, salami, roll beef.

The Pub: This was a free-standing suburban restaurant with a parking lot, unusual at the time. I always had the cheapest thing on the menu, seduced by the glamorous French name: steak en brochette. I remember open flames here off to one side and the patrons being able to watch the steaks being grilled. The menu was full of superlatives and "cute" descriptions, like the baked potatoes being described as "rubbed, tubbed and scrubbed." The potatoes were huge and probably wrapped in foil. as well.

Marsilio's Kitchen: There is still a restaurant in Trenton, in Chambersburg, by this name, and for all I know, it may be the same. There were a series of small dining rooms. I remember white tablecoths although the typical southern Italian-American red sauce dishes seemed to call for a red-checked tablecloth with candles in fiaschi. We always had penne (called pencil points in Trenton) with tomato sauce and veal parmagiana. I guess wine was available, but it wouldn't have occurred to anyone in my family to drink it. It wasn't Passover...

Of course we ate pizza. This is Trenton. DeLorenzo's on Hudson Street was my favorite. When I was growing up, they used a coke oven that I swear, and you must believe me, produced the finest pizza crust, unequalled by ANY, even, dare I say it, in New Haven. There was a fire, and afterwards, the restaurant switched to a conventional oven with the inevitable decline in quality. There was no bathroom there in the early days, either.

Lido Garden, the Chinese restaurant. When my family took out, it was always chicken chow mein, shrimp in lobster sauce and the like. One day, my brownie troupe went on some kind of field trip that ended with a meal at the Chinese restaurant. Our leader ordered sweet and sour pork. My first bite was a revelation: Pork! Sweet and sour! I never knew food could be like this.

In the late fifties or maybe very early sixties, Restaurant Associates opened The Newarker, at the Newark Airport. After reading about it The New Yorker and being impressed with "knife and fork" oysters, I begged my parents to take me there. The oysters were huge, but it was the curried chicken (a Frenchified version, to be sure) that I remember -- a revelation similar to my sweet and sour pork awakening. It was "curry" and therefore served with a number of condiments like raisins, bombay duck (a dried fish) peanuts, etc. These were called chutneys. Naive as the meal was, it piqued my interest in real Indian food.

Edited by Sandra Levine (log)
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Fatguy,

You talk about the ubiquity of fresh vegetables today -- that is a laugh. It is true that the vegetables are "fresh" - meaning not frozen or canned, but only in expensive restaurants in big cities (or in rural areas) are they possibly fresh, meaning 24 hours or less out of the garden..

I grew up in southern Maine in the late 40's and restaurant vegetables were local and as fresh as they needed to be. In the summer it was corn, peas, beans, summer squash in season (as well as rhubarb and blueberry pies). In the winter, it was root vegetables that kept - squash and turnips. I also spent a lot of time in more or less urban Massachusetts, and the situation was not different.

Finally, I remember being allowed to go to the drugstore for school lunch occasionally when there was nothing in the house to pack (often crabmeant sandwiches, which were cheaper than tuna). For 25 cents, I could get two hot dogs and a coke.

Pat G.

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Although I hardly qualify as the appropriate age (I'm late 30s), I thought I'd throw my $ .02 in...in the early-mid 70s, my dad introduced us to "real" Chinese food--stuff nobody else seemed to be eating except the people running the restaurants!  When did that whole Chinese food trend start?

My first tastes of Moo Shu anything, ground chicken sauteed and eaten out of a lettuce leaf, hot & sour soup, and long life noodles for birthday outings seemed so exotic!  My friends had only ever had (Lord, can I even type this?) Chicken Chow Mein (does anyone remember those orange CANS in the supermarket???) egg rolls and egg foo yung if they were really adventurous.  By the time I was 10, I had been taught by our favorite local restaurant owner how to properly say Gung Hey Fat Choy, and to this day, have surprised people when I've said it. 

Good memories, for sure!  :wub:

You asked when the trend started. I really don't know, but I've been around long enough, and interested in Chinese food long enough to have witnessed the changes --------from Boston's Chinatown in the late 30s, early 40s, when aside from the chow mein/chop suey/egg drop soup, you could get Lobster Cantonese and it's cousin Shrimp with Lobster sauce. Exotic stuff! Even the Sweet Sour Pork was loved.

Again in Boston, (?49-50-51?) in an upclassed Chinese place, I remember dating a guy who could order Moo Goo Gai Pan -- and say it in Chinese -- rather than order Sliced Chicken and Mushrooms! Boy!! Was I ever impressed! That dish was the rage!! Wor Shu Op was another one.

Trader Vic helped bring food out of the Chinatowns with his ribs and exotic diagonal sliced vegetables, and the accent on sweetness. The whole Hawaiian touch was popular, with the cherries and pineapple sweet dishes with the red sauces.

Cantonese was the biggie, until Sichuanese food made its way in, and was so popular that Cantonese took a back seat and was looked down on. As the other regional foods came into favor, Cantonese was still last on anyones list until it made its comeback --- finally! Cantonese cooking has always been highly respected by the Chinese in China. They even have a saying that honors it.

The Hong Kong influence was next, with its chefs inventing interesting new dishes, while still staying true to the fundamentals.

All along, the effects of post-WW2 and the ease on Chinese immigration in the 60s,

brought changes.

I'm presently reading "China to Chinatown" by Roberts, and may have better insight on the whole subject when I finish, but the above brief thoughts are from my personal experiences as the trends changed and broadened from Boston to NYC

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Got to chime in at almost 68.

First Filet Mignon ever, at 18, right after three-year apprenticeship in Germany. Remember the Waiter (yes with capital W) in tails.

Also remember a quasi 'Automat' in Leipzig, having some kind of 'Oxtail Soup' with my Grandmother in '43.

Then the real one: "Horn & Hardert" Philly in '57, Liverwurst Sandwich for 30 cents through a glass door in a huge wall.

Funny times in Massachusetts, late fifties - early sixties: Ladies were not allowed to sit at bars, could only stand and imbibe. (Blue Law). Also Sundays, no sitting at bars, for anyone, ingenuety was to remove seats from these perma installed stools, replace with a wooden top just 6/8 inches below bar edge, then regular chairs in front of that and everyone still at bar.

Restaurants served 'Relish Trays' usually some kind of lazy susan with cottage cheese, three bean salad and some celery.

Also clothes napkins were common.

Five piece combo and dancing Friday Saturday nights at Terrace Dining Room at Bradley International (BDL) in CT.

High experience in '66 at Lutece with Caviar blini and Russian Vodka as appetizer. Boss paid.

Jaegerhaus, Kleine Konditorei and Cafe Geiger in Yorkville came close to the real thing.

I have yet to learn to drink out of paper or plastic, even if it is just water.

Peter
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I grew up in Brooklyn in the late 50's. My grandmother, who lived with us, grew up in Manhattan (Hell's Kitchen) and dragged us on the subway and through the streets of NYC whenever she got the chance. She had season tickets to the Metropolitan Opera back when the opera house was where, I think, Madison Square Guarden is now. She was daring or crazy enough to take me and my sister (we were four and three years old!) to dinner at the upscale restaurant at the opera house, which I think was called "The Sherry". It was a grand experience. What I remember most was the red flocking on the red wallpaper - a sure sign this was a very special place! Dinner was followed by the opera, for which "Gran" had spent weeks preparing us to attend. She also took us for a weekend at the Waldorf Astoria where we had breakfast via room service! I remember all the white linens on the trays that were brought up to the room as well as all the fussing over us by the waiter. One thing that stands out in my mind was the way the prunes were served. ( I can't remember who ordered that!) There was a glass dish of stewed prunes sitting upon a bed of ice in a silver goblet which sat on a doily which sat on a small plate which was again on a larger plate with a larger doily. I was almost tempted to try the prunes because it was all so beautiful!

She also took us to Horn & Hardart, which we loved. I remember wanting milk because you could fill your glass from a spout that came out of the silver head of a huge lion mounted on the wall.

Family dining out was frequently at a local place in Bay Ridge called "Joe Major's". We were allowed to order the hot turkey sandwiches, no white meat! My sister occassionally asked if she could have the lobster, which she never got!

My parents had summer jobs at a CYO camp in Coney Island which helped to bring in a little extra money. I remember them getting dinner some nights from Nathan's on Surf Avenue. We got the usual franks and fries but they had frogs legs! I thought it was quite exotic back then. I wonder if any of the Nathan's still serve them?

On family vacations we dined at many Howard Johnsons. Gran always ordered ginger ice cream for dessert. We went to a Stuckies -once. The signs telling us how close we were were more interesting than the place itself.

Thanks for the chance to take a walk down memory lane. I realize how my grandmother was such a big part of those early food memories.

KathyM

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The first celebrity chef I became aware of was Andre Soltner at Lutec in the sixties. Later in the seventies and early eighties there were celebrity couples in kitchens like the Waltucks at The Quilted Girraffe and the Pritskers at Dodin Bouffant.

Had cervelles de veau au beurre noir one quiet snowy night in, I think, 1976, at Dodin-Bouffant, followed by stingers at the Ritz, and spent the next week in bed, sooo sick. Maybe it was coincidence, it was possibly the flu, but I haven't eaten the damn things since and it's a long time since brandy got by my tonsils. Then when Moncef Maddeb opened L'Espalier in the same space, I had tournedo with mustard seeds there. His kitchen was a revelation. All Le Creuset, whereas I grew up on Wearever aluminum.

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Had cervelles de veau au beurre noir one quiet snowy night in, I think, 1976, at Dodin-Bouffant, followed by stingers at the Ritz, and spent the next week in bed, sooo sick. Maybe it was coincidence, it was possibly the flu, but I haven't eaten the damn things since and it's a long time since brandy got by my tonsils. Then when Moncef Maddeb opened L'Espalier in the same space, I had tournedo with mustard seeds there. His kitchen was a revelation. All Le Creuset, whereas I grew up on Wearever aluminum.

Dodin-Bouffant was the first Michelin starred restaurant I ever went to! It was also the first place I ever had a tower of seafood. I have loved that presentation ever since. Had one at Balthazar in New York a few years ago. They did a really nice job.

I'll tell you a funny story. I had one miserable trip to Paris in the late fall one year. The weather was wretched. I got a horrible cold. My husband - our friend - and his friend - the head bartender at the George V - decided I needed a good whiskey to clear my chest. So they took me to Joe Allen's. And ordered me a Johnny Walker Black. I am not a scotch drinker - but it didn't taste so good. So everyone passed the drink around - and it was decided unanimously that it wasn't Johnny Walker Black. The waiter was summoned - and told that the drink wasn't Johnny WB. And the waiter basically said - who are you to tell me that! And the friend of our friend - Nino - summoned up all 5'5" of himself - and said - I am the head bartender at the George V - and I am telling you it's not Johnny WB. I got a new drink :wink: . It did the trick for a bad chest cold - even for a non-scotch drinker :smile: . Robyn

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I grew up in Trenton, N.J. and my earliest restaurant memories date from the late 1940s.  My family "ate out" only on Sunday, choosing from an almost unvarying group of restaurants:  Fisher's, on Broad St. in Philadelphia; Katz's, in NYC; The Pub, a steakhouse in Cherry Hill, NJ...

Someone sent me an email about the Pub. I spent my high school years in Cherry Hill (which was known as Delaware Township for part of that time) - but don't recall ever eating there. Robyn

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While traveling on vacation, my mother was always looking for an A&W.  When she found one, we all had root beers in frosted mugs. It didn't matter the time of day.  This was a benefit of traveling before cars were air conditioned.

We also enjoyed watching for McDonald's - even though we seldom ate at one - to see how high the number served at reached.  If memory serves me correctly, the first signs we say showed less than 100,000.

At the end of the block where my grandmother lived in Oklahoma City, at 15th and  May Ave. was a Chicken In The Rough restaurant which had the best fried chicken....

Another chain that I remember from the 1950s was Toddle House....

That's enough rambling for now.  Does anyone else remember any of these places?

I'm only 48 but I have a long memory. I do recall a Toddle House in the area when I was growing up (Syracuse NY) but as kids we were not taken out to "fancy" places like that. We had no A&W's on my end of town - that treat was reserved for vacation trips (in the non-airconditioned car even though it was the late 60's and early 70's at that point). I can well recall being taken by my mom to "Harvey's Drive-In" for a burger with fries when I was no more than about four years of age. I was duly impressed as it was explained to me that drive-in hamburger restaurants were a new thing.

McDonalds opened a year later down the street. It was at about the 100,000 mark on the sign by then. As late as 1971, when we had Carrol's (the central NY predecessor to Burger King), McDonalds and Red Barn (a regional competitor now long gone).... the "hamburger price wars" started. Regular burgers got as low as 18 cents each for awhile before they threw in the towel and went back to regular prices.

I don't personally recall a Chicken in the Rough in our area but my dad was always amused by my Irish grandmother, who was absolutely certain that the restaurant was called "Chicken on the Roof". Her opinion could not be swayed despite the fact that she admitted it to ba a rather odd name.

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I'm surprised that no ones mentioned one of New York, especially Brooklyn's most unique Restaurant personalties.

Cooky Rachelson, founder and operator of "Cooky's Restaurants" in Brooklyn, Caterers "Buffet Cooky" and the truly special "Cooky's Steak Pubs".

Bet lots of you remember the "Steak Castle" and all the other places all over NYC and the Suburbs. in Valley Stream Shopping Center and all over NYC and the Suburbs.

Irwin :biggrin:

I don't say that I do. But don't let it get around that I don't.

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She had season tickets to the Metropolitan Opera back when the opera house was where, I think, Madison Square Guarden is now.

But that was the glorious Penn Station, right?

Michael aka "Pan"

 

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In the 60's and 70's, my boyfriend-turned-husband and I would drive for an hour just to get to some of our favorite food places- A & W, International House of Pancakes, sushi. We even had our own A & W mugs. Now these things are either very accessible or we wouldn't go out of our way!

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...I doubt we have any eGulleters with clear memories of Prohibition, but does anybody have any thoughts on the liquor-restaurant connection and how it has evolved over the years.

While not directly part of the 50 recollections..I can correlate the issuance of beverage alcohol licenses to the rise of free standing (as opposed to hotel) restaurants. In 1961 I was working in Kentucky for a major distiller I had shown an "ON premise" adaptability, and was really into the wine scene. I was called into corporate and told of a promotion possibilty of moving to Washington DC, as the law had just changed there. The old law permitted a drink to be served ONLY from a service bar ( if I recall correctly there were only three restuarants in DC that had even that, all others were hotels) to the change of allowing restaurants to have bars at which the customer could sit. The explosion was remarkable..there was not a day for the next two/three years when I wasn't out following up on a lead of a new restaurant opening.

I recall conversation, about how now women could sit on a barstool and have a drink without being "escorted." 'twas true to a certain extent...ANYONE could now sit at a bar...why , golly even black people could get a drink in public. (I do hope readers appreciate the irony...this was after all D.C., a very southern town).

Anyone with any recollection of those days will have to pay homage to one "Blackie" Auger ( a gentleman of Greek heritage) who cosponsored more than several restaurants with (presumed) relatives.

The obvious connection to new openings was directly tied to the new ABC regs., which allowed open bars with seats at the bar.

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