Oldest living eGulleters tell all

[Fat Guy]

I'm looking for some words of wisdom from those who remember what restaurants were like as far back as the 1950s and beyond. Do you have any reminiscences you can share? In particular, if you've been dining out steadily for several decades, what do you think has changed, what do you think has stayed the same, what has come and gone and come back again, what do you miss, and what do you not miss?

This is part of the research for my book -- I may quote you, if you don't mind. I've already interviewed several restaurateurs who go back that far, but I'd be interested in hearing some consumer perspectives -- as, I'm sure, would all the baby eGulleters.

[John Whiting]

Heh! Heh! Heh! I can remember Howard Johnson's first franchised restaurant in Orleans on Cape Cod. From shortly after it opened in 1935, we always stopped there for clam chowder when we drove from Provincetown to Boston. And one of those amazing 28 flavors of ice cream. Their orange, blue and white color scheme and art deco architecture were there from the beginning.

[jo-mel]

Do you mean things like a 'men only' area as in places like Lock-Obers in Boston? Or when women NEVER dined alone? (I'm not trying to pick out women's issues as I'm NOT a feminist, but those two things just came to mind.

Let me think on it a while, and I will check with my DH ---he's older than I am and may be able to add something.

Interesting idea for a book.

[robert brown]

Steven, don't get me started again. Are you talking about domestic, foreign, or both?

[woodburner]

Well, anybody over 60 is most likely milking their Metamucil, so I'll offer this, remembering well, the Hot Shoppes. Developed by the Marriott corporation.

And if you remember the "Shoppes" you'll for sure remember Might Mo.

Mighty Mo

woodburner

Edited February 27, 2004 by woodburner (log)

[Fat Guy]

Jo-Mel: I'm very interested in the status of women in fine dining over the years. There's still not equality, but I can only imagine what it was like in the old days! And don't even get me started on how restaurants have historically treated ethnic minorities. (By the way, it's not a whole book -- this information is for one chapter in a book about the restaurant business and restaurant culture in general.)

Robert: The focus is on the US, but I'm trying not to be provincial so a global context is also important.

[John Whiting]

Steven, I'm sure you have Elizabeth David's and MFK Fisher's comments on being a woman eating alone.

[afoodnut]

I'm looking for some words of wisdom from those who remember what restaurants were like as far back as the 1950s and beyond.

I'm not yet over 60; ignore me/delete this if you don't want to hear anymore.

But I do remember going to New China Inn at Flatbush and Nostrand in Brooklyn with a large Jewish Mishpoche (the whole extended family) in the mid 50's, and hearing my father tell the waiter/waitress/or owner to just bring whatever we might enjoy, then eating food that to this day I remember.

And I remember eating at Lundy's in Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn when there were no white waiters; all the waiters were what were then called Negroes, not African Americans, not even yet Blacks. And all the fish served came from the fishing fleets the FWIL Lundy Bros. owned, and the vegetables came from their farms on Long Island. The fish dinner cost $2.50; the Shore dinner, that included steamers, lobster, chowder, and a whole lot more, cost $5.00.

But since I'm not yet over 60, I won't say anymore, unless you tell me otherwise.

[Fat Guy]

John: You can assume total cultural illiteracy on my part.

Foodnut: If you can remember the '50s, you can play too!

[afoodnut]

Foodnut: If you can remember the '50s, you can play too!

Just like in the '50s when the boys on the block told me I could join them in punchball if I could hit the spaldeen past the sewer.

And like in the late '60s when I could go to law school if I could think like one of the boys.

But I remember too well going to the local pizza place for a slice after school; it cost $0.15 (the same as a subway token), and was eaten folded in half in wax paper, dripping, with cheese stretching beyond arm's length.

Edit to add: No toppings on the pizza. It was thin crust, olive oil, tomato sauce, cheese. You could sprinkle red pepper flakes on it. There were shakers on the tables with crushed red pepper. The tables didn't have the red checkered tablecloths; they were bare. You bought slices, not pies.

Italian restaurants were different. They'll be the focus of another post. Italian restaurants had the checkered tablecloths, and a more extensive menu.

Edited February 28, 2004 by afoodnut (log)

[wesza]

I'm over 60 [my grandchildren consider me another kid]. I've either eaten there, consulted, worked there or knew some one who sold there anywhere in the NYC metro area.

Was involved together thru the years with my wife in New York, Honolulu, California and Asia where she was considered by many to be a pioneer.

Have traveled, owned or been involved with Restaurants, Hotels, Bakeries, Food Imports, Exports, Under-utilized Products [some so successfully that they are now protected] plus Consulting and Trouble Shooting all over the World.

Irwin

[Holly Moore]

Way into my 50's here.

Going to the Automat with my father. The chicken pot pie and the lemon meringue pie. Trying to see through the doors to what was happening in the kitchen. Watching to see how fast an item was replaced. Getting quarters from the change lady. The clank of those quarters on the marble.

How the Automat has changed? They're all Burger Kings and I'm the dumb son-of-a-bitch that worked for Burger King at the time (mid 70's) and arranged for the grand opening of the first conversion on 59th, off 5th. Hope the automats truly to return.

Tad's Steakhouse. A giant thin steak for $1.19, as I recall.

[beverlyq]

Shun Lee's in Chinatown. He was then the Mayor of Chinatown and boy was the food good. We came all the way from brooklyn to eat there!

Beverlyq

[Holly Moore]

Oh yeah. The Howard Johnsons on Rte 46 in Parsippany. Hot dogs on toasted and buttered New England Style hot dog buns for lunch.

Our regular out-to-dinner (non-special occasions) place. Fried clams with extra tartar sauce. Clam chowder to start. Hot fudge sundae for dessert. Simple Simon and the Pieman on the placemats. All sorts of items all over the placement. While waiting, we'd play find the whatever. Kept me reasonably occupied and well-behaved.

Going to Maine every summer and finding the exact same fried clams at the Howard Johnson's in Naples. Chocolate Chip Mint ice cream cones.

Driving Cape Cod with my mother. Stopping at a Howard Johnsons. Ordered fried clams. There was something totally wrong. The clams were soft and had big mushy ends. I never really trusted Howard Johnson's again, except for the ones in Parsippany and Naples. Now, of course, having put away at least some of my childish ways, I have come to realize the clams on Cape Cod were whole belly and a delicacy compared to the clam strips served everywhere else.

[Holly Moore]

One more. Taking the train from New New Jersey to Los Angeles and back. The Union Pacific. Silver chief as I remember. Did this a few times. The dining car. The crisp white, starched linen. Plates sliding around. The waiters. Scrambled eggs and shrimp for breakfast. A perfect Shirley Temple at dinner time. Howard Johnsons did a good Shirley Temple too.

Lunch at the Brown Derby. They insisted on serving salad at the start of the meal. At home it was always after. From that day on I always considered salad before the meal to be California style.

[Marlene]

I'm not quite 50 yet, but i can sure remember the Canadiana bar and tavern that had separate entrances. One for men, and one for women and escorts. Women were not allowed in unless accompanied by a man. They served draft glasses by the dozen at a time. Peanut shells on the floor, and the hockey/football game on the tv, depending on the season.

[Suzanne F]

Also not yet 60, but getting there

Another Howard Johnson's memory: there was one on the vast, empty stretch of Northern Boulevard between Douglaston and Little Neck. It was always a thrill to stop there on our way out to or back from "the Island." Yes, their fried clams were the sweetest! (Talk about forbidden pleasures!) And when we would take our summer vacation, with my father driving the '53 Chevy, whenever we'd pass one, be it in upstate NY or on the way to Luray Caverns, the universal cry went up: "Howard Johnson's!?!?!?!"

The height of elegant dining was Bernhard's Steak House in ? Great Neck? (At least I remember it was somewhere in northwest Nassau County, near the water). But for middle-class fine dining there was Patricia Murphy's on the Miracle Mile (hot popovers! relishes on the table including pickled watermelon rind and cottage cheese [separately, not mixed, thank god]).

Edited February 28, 2004 by Suzanne F (log)

[Jason Perlow]

Also not yet 60, but getting there

Another Howard Johnson's memory: there was one on the vast, empty stretch of Northern Boulevard between Douglaston and Little Neck. It was always a thrill to stop there on our way out to or back from "the Island." Yes, their fried clams were the sweetest!

Wow. Talk about close to home. My old stomping grounds.

Okay, I'm 34, but this particular Howard Johnsons is where I was basically introduced to fried clams. I think the location is either demolished or a Bobs Big Boy now, its been a while since I was in that area.

It may have been the 1970's but my grandparents (Jack and Sylvia Perlow) never completely left the Great Depression. They always acted like it was feast or famine, it didnt matter how much money they had. This was a successful orthodontist and current president of the Nassau County Dental Society, who paid for two children to go to medical school, and had a condo in Florida. They got immense thrills from ALL YOU CAN EAT FRIED CLAMS at Howard Johnsons. Was it a Wednesday or a Thursday every week they did that? I forgot. These were people that always scrimped and saved, they piled up at the Sizzler salad bar and went back for thirds at Morrissons Cafeteria during their winter vacations in Hollywood, Florida. All you could eat fried clams at the Howard Johnsons in Douglaston was the ultimate and definitive Jack and Sylvia Perlow experience. They did this like clockwork every week. My grandfather could eat six or seven plates of those things. Jesus, I even remember Sylvia pocketing fistfulls of single serve packets of Tartar sauce in her 20 year old pocketbook and my mother freaking out watching her do that.

Wow, that was a lot of images for me.

[jo-mel]

In those days, women simple didn't dine alone. In a restaurant, that is. In places like Lock-Obers (do you know of it?) you were always escorted PAST the downstairs bar and up the stairs to the elegant dining room where the service was haute and you ate off pweter, or some sort of polished metal.

I ate alone only at diners or places where you sat for lunch. Formal dining meant an escort. I remember the first times I did eat alone. I brought a book and kept my eyes glued to it!! The time did come when it wasn't unusual for women to eat alone. I remember reading that when business women who were on business trips HAD to eat alone and were tired of ordering room service ---- so they took themselves to the dining room and paved the way. The time soon came when it didn't bother me one bit to eat alone and not hide behind a book.

There was a time when the 'entree; was what you had BEFORE the main dinner course. I don't know when 'entree' changed position to be the steak/lamb/chicken, but I think I will do little research to see if there is any explanation.

Also, salads accompanied your main dish. Again ---- somewhere along the line, it became a separate course.

I never met a date 'under the clock at the Biltmore', but I did meet some friends there ----- just to say I did it. I think the clock is long gone.

I wasn't of the gloves and hat era, but my mother was, and she would NEVER go to a good restaurant without them. In my corner of the world, eating out was an event, and you dressed for it.

The first Howard Johnson's (1925 -- [before my time])was in the Wollaston part of Quincy, Mass. I'd never been there but passed it many times. The last time I saw it, it was scheduled to be torn down. To bad they couldn't have moved it to a place where it could have lived on. Howard Johnson was the first place of its kind that had standards for cooking. Whereever you went, you could be sure the food would taste like any other Howard Johnson in the country. Their fried clams (the strips) were looked down on by true New Englanders. The only true fried clam had bellies. When I married NJ, I looked for fried clams, but alas, there weren't any!! I even tried at the shore at seafood places. Nada! I asked for them at one place, and they said they would make them for me. I was so excited!!! UNTIL they came. They had opened cherrystones, and deep fried them. NOT THE SAME!!!!

But over the years, fried clams have found their way to the Jersey Shore, and they are as good as the ones of my youth ----almost.

BTW - my dates always held my chair for me, and stood when I left or came back to the table.

I'll have to travel back a little more to see if I can come up with what you are looking for----- like the times when the waiter didn't introduce himself by saying "Hi! I'm Kevin and I will be your waiter for the night!" (bleechhhh!), or when the word was 'waiter' or 'waitress' and not the PC 'waitperson'. (another bleeech!)

[bigbear]

..... If you can remember the '50s, you can play too!

I can remember the '50s. It's the '60s and '70s that I have trouble remembering.

When we went to Manhattan (The City), we had to "dress up."

The Horn & Hardart Automat and a handful of nickels was fun and clean. A cup of hot water was free.

Bars served free lunches. No women allowed at the bar. You could take-out tap beer from the bar in white cardboard containers. A bar was called a bar & grill because the law made them offer food, IIRC.

The main Howard Johnson's was on Queens Blvd near The Lost Batallion Hall.

[wesza]

When I was a Kid I was told that " Howard Johnston" across from the entrance to the Bronx Zoo was a Ice Cream Restaurant.

Horn & Hardard" should be called the "Engineers Club" because you had to be a mechanic to get your food. Then I was told it originated in Boston because it served "Baked Beans".

"Schraffts" was where the Ladies with Gloves had Lunch, but Kids were allowed "Hot Fudge Sundaes".

"Lundy's" in Sheepshead Bay was the first Restaurant we received VIP service because my Uncle sold the Waiters who worked there new Cadillac's every year. [Also Gage & Tollners Waiters].

"Grants" on 42nd Street made Burgers from a Automatic Portion Machine that I never saw anywhere else.

I never could make up my mind between the large plate of "fresh Baked Miniature Biscuits" served at Lundys or Tappens in Sheepshead Bay.

Had my first Lobster at the "Lobster Box" in City Island.

My first "Strawberry Short Cake" at "Toffenetti's" in Times Square.

First "Sundae with Fresh Whipped Cream" at Krums on Fordham Road in the Bronx.

First fancy Ice Cream Soda at "Rumplemeyers"

Had my first German meal at Simon Adler's "Steuben's Tavern" when it was full of West Pointers [their place in NYC] in celebration of Adler's son marrying into the "Strait's Matzoh" family.

Was sent to buy "Romanian Goose Pastrami" from the Romanian Deli on Westchester Ave near Southern Blvd in the Bronx.

My first Cafeteria meal at "Brighton Cafeteria" on Southern Blvd and Westchester Ave.

My first Chinese Sandwich of Chop Suey on a Bun from "Woolworth's"

First Deli Meal at "Schmulka Bernstein's" where I later set up Americas first Kosher Chinese Restaurant.

When I was 12 years old I was invited to the "Stork Club" for a Birthday luncheon for Sherman Billingsly's daughter whom I had met at The 42nd Street Branch of the Library.

The more I think the more I remember makes me surprised at all the changes I've enjoyed. Or all that I've left out.

I wonder when I'll be old enough to try Viagra? Hope not for a while yet.

Irwin

[Pan]

I think I have a vague recollection of being taken to Rumplemayer's by my grandma. Is that possible? When did it close? And where was it?

[John Whiting]

. . . the times when the waiter didn't introduce himself by saying "Hi! I'm Kevin and I will be your waiter for the night!" (bleechhhh). . .

Herb Caen's immortal reply: "Do you mind if I call you Waiter?"

[Holly Moore]

The Horn & Hardart Automat and a handful of nickels was fun and clean. A cup of hot water was free.

When doing the Burger King H&H opening I learned about "Horn and Hardart tomato soup." The free hot water and the free ketchup. A favorite of street people, actors and other down and out types.

[afoodnut]

Before going to the theater, we ate at either Pierre au Tunnel, the then new small French Bistro that I believe is still in business (you must excuse me, I did leave NY many years ago, so I'm not up on what's there now), or at the sprawling, loud Mama Leone's for Italian. For French food when we were not going to the theater, Le Veau D'or, (also still in business?) was one of the choices.

And of course every NYC neighborhood had a candy store with soda fountain serving malteds and egg creams.

The national chains like McDonalds (started in mid 50's in California?) were slow to reach the big cities; they spread through suburbia first. With the growth of the interstate highway system, they started to appear all along the highway. Small towns were often described as too small to have a McDonald's. And later, it became, so small, the only place to eat is at McDonalds.

Restaurants and foods were far more regional. In NY, we ate bagels, appetizing, pizza, Chinese(mostly "Cantonese"), Italian, seafood, and deli. For fancy, there was steak and French.

I first encountered an avocado on a trip to California. I first tasted a Pot Sticker in a Chinese restaurant in San Francisco in the '60's. That style of Chinese was in San Francisco's Chinatown, not New York's. But I do remember noodle places like Hong Fat's (?) in NY.

When I went to law school in Chicago, I discovered Mexican food; that was not on the scene in NY. NY did not at the time have a sizeable Mexican community, and there weren't chains like Taco Bell.

Speaking of Chicago, I remember going to RJ Grunts, the first of the Lettuce Entertain You restaurants when it opened (early '70's?) possibly one of the first "concept" restaurants. And of course, Chicago's pizza was nothing like pizza in NY. You went to a restaurant and sat down; you got a pie. Gino's on Superior was down the block from school, so that was my introduction. There was no ordering a slice, then walking down the street eating it. The Berghoff in Chicago was like nothing in NY (and probably still isn't)!

And then I discovered the Mexican food in Colorado, so different from Chicago's, and different still from that of New Mexico, and California, and Arizona, and Texas.

But many of the regional differences are still here. It is in the national chains that we see the homogeneity. After all, here at eGullet, aren't we always discussing "authenticity"?

Edited February 28, 2004 by afoodnut (log)