Spice Market

[Pan]

Thanks for your report, ewindels. Most instructive.

[bergerka]

I vote ewindels for NY Times reviewer.

K

[Bond Girl]

Went to the Spice market for a Schmooze meal. The place is the flea market version of 66, with pretty similar menu and price points. And, it is Fusion food because you can't tell if it's chinese, malaysian, thai, vietnamese, or indonesian. Wait! it might be Singaporean! (just kiidding!) Here is what the table ordered:

Vietnamese Spring Roll: This was a good spriing roll, eaten with bib lettuce and mint. But, it is a spring roll afterall and you can get one far cheaper at any vietnamese place. A far better version is the one Gray Kunz did for the Gourmet magazine party which contain Foie Gras, absolutely delicious and bursting with flavors.

Black peppered shrimp with sundried pineapple: most of the time when I go to a restaurant, complain that the chef forgets to season their food. But, this one iis so salty that it drowns out any flavor of the food under it. Paul Hanson, brother of Steve Hanson of BR Guest fame, asked me if what he's eating was pineapple or shrimp. Not a good sign.

Spiced chicken samosas with cilantro yogurt: I can't eat chicken but everyone seemed to like it.

Crunchy squid salad with ginger papaya and cashew: This is nice. Light and crunchy squid with fresh ginger and papaya. Good balance of texture and flavor.

It is at least interesting.

Shaved Tuna, chili tapioca with asian pear and lime: This dish starts out nice but the flavor gets tiresome after a few bites. The sauce that started out refreshing becomes soapy tasting. The Asian pear and chli tapioca is very interestiing to taste and is the better part of the dish. It reminds me of a marinaded pear that my aunt used to make but not with Tapioca.

Onion and Chili Crusted Short Ribs over Pea Shoots: I can't eat it but it seemed to be scoring major points around the table. Jean George peered over and saw the thumbs up from my dinner companions.

Lime Noodles with Vegetable Basil and Sesame: by far the worse dish we had, or may be it was a bad night, but this was sent over by the chef with his compliments.

The whole dish was simply too tart and very flat despite what appears to be matcha dumped into the noodles and signs of vegetable present.

Cod with Malaysian chili sauce and thai basil: This hits the spot for my spice craving, but it's a simple cod with Chili sauce, you really can't fuck it up very much...actually I take that back...now that I remember some pretty bad cod in my life. This is a simple and homey dish and a good one to order if you miss good asian home cooking.

For dessert I had a shaved ice with coconut sauce and asian fruits in it. I can't remember the name but it's that three jewel dish that Lauren had. I totally enjoyed it even though iit wasn't a great culinary feat, it was the perfect thing to cleanse my palate.

The ambience was very nice and the crowd was indeed beautiful. Then again, this is a place where the women servers wear backless uniforms. The service was a bit slow but friendly and helpful.

Would I go back? Only if someone else is paying.

[tan319]

I liked jeunefilleparis' review/post about Spice Market.

The dessert menu alone makes me want to go there + I like that area for it's food.

I hope it workks for JGV

Edited March 1, 2004 by tan319 (log)

[bpearis]

Sam Sifton gives Spice Market the Diner's Journal treatment in today's NY Times. He really seems to really like it, saying "Busboys could go around the place hitting random customers with rubber hammers, and the restaurant would still be worth a visit."

[SobaAddict70]

Of course, quality comes at a cost. It seems every slingbacked publicist who ever appeared as an extra on the late HBO show "Sex and the City" has been granted an early reservation.

From there, try weird perfect craziness for the mouth: a wide pool of coconut juice mixed with kaffir lime into which swim shavings of sashimi-grade tuna and balls of tapioca infused with ancho chilies, chipotle chilies, Thai chilies, cinnamon and Sichuan peppercorns.

Spice Market (Sam Sifton) (from this weekend's NYTimes DIGEST. You may have to scroll down for the appropriate link.)

Soba

[herbacidal]

"Busboys could go around the place hitting random customers with rubber hammers, and the restaurant would still be worth a visit."

That's an interesting soundbite.

I didn't know Kunz was there. Hmm.

[Pan]

There are several things in Sifton's article that raise my eyebrows:

First of all, where is the place getting its Sichuan pepper?

Secondly:

Sriracha, an Indonesian pepper sauce

Nope. It's Thai, its name doesn't even sound Indonesian, and it's distinguishable in taste from an Indonesian hot sauce like Sambal Oelek, in its various varieties.

a terrific, addictive pork vindaloo, properly vinegary, comes straight from the home kitchen of one of the sous-chefs, Mohan Ismail, a Malaysian-Chinese who learned the dish from his Thai-Chinese grandmother.

Mohan Ismail, a Malaysian Chinese? I really wonder about this. How many Malaysian Chinese are Muslims (as he would seem to be, given his name, which isn't exactly a typical Malaysian Chinese name) and cook pork vindaloo? This name sounds more Malaysian Indian Muslim to me, if anything.

I hate to rain on Mr. Sifton's parade. I've read a bunch of articles by him that I've found excellent, but based on the dubious things he wrote in this Diner's Journal, I don't think he's established an expertise on Southeast Asia such that his opinion on this place should mean much to me.

[Suzanne F]

Pan: so what? Please don't turn this into a Sam Sifton bashing session just because he doesn't know as much as you do about this specific subject. Remember that MOST people don't know any of that stuff, either. They (and I include myself) want an idea of what the food tastes like, what the ambience is -- that's the information on which I base my decision to try a place (or not). The write-up did a good job on that, I think.

[Jason Perlow]

Yeah, the technical factoid details arent important. The bottom line is what his impressions of the restaurant and the food was.

[Jinmyo]

Hm.

I can understand Sam not being fluent in South East Asian cuisine but it still stood out for me.

My final impression of the article was that he doesn't know what it is that he likes but he knows that he likes it.

[Lesley C]

Pan: so what? Please don't turn this into a Sam Sifton bashing session just because he doesn't know as much as you do about this specific subject. Remember that MOST people don't know any of that stuff, either. They (and I include myself) want an idea of what the food tastes like, what the ambience is -- that's the information on which I base my decision to try a place (or not). The write-up did a good job on that, I think.

So Jayson Blair made up all those stories. So what?

People may not care, but still, a mistake is a mistake. And I think it's wrong to assume people don't care. If it were something that had to do with your culture, you might really care. There will always be readers out there that care, that's why journalists should check their facts. I like his writing, but IMO, such mistakes can not be so easily dismissed.

[tommy]

looking at the issue with the guy's name and whatnot, i assume this was what he was told. or was it some sort of research/editing error? if it's the former, "so what" applies.

Edited March 6, 2004 by tommy (log)

[bpearis]

There are several things in Sifton's article that raise my eyebrows:

Sriracha, an Indonesian pepper sauce

Nope. It's Thai, its name doesn't even sound Indonesian, and it's distinguishable in taste from an Indonesian hot sauce like Sambal Oelek, in its various varieties.

The guy who started Huy Fong (the company who makes the stuff with the green cap) is from Vietnam which is where the company started. Then he moved to Los Angeles and, according to the Huy Fong website this is where they first started making Sriracha sauce. But it's of Thai origins.

I really liked Sam Sifton's Diners Journal, innacuracies or not. He liked the food a lot -- that's what I took from it. He's got a young, snarky vibe to his writing that I dig.

The NY Times dining section seems to make a habit of mangling Asian stuff -- remember the takoyaki thing?

Pan, maybe you should apply to be a fact-checker for the Times. Sounds like they need one.

[Pan]

Yeah, the technical factoid details arent important. The bottom line is what his impressions of the restaurant and the food was.

I don't agree. If someone who showed the same degree of ignorance about the U.S. was rating buttermilk pancakes with Grade B maple syrup, would you say the same thing? I think that knowing what you're talking about is helpful, and based on the points I made, I have doubts that Sifton knows what he's talking about in regard to Southeast Asia. So sure, his review may well-serve people who also don't know much about Southeast Asian food. Perhaps they're Spice Market's target audience.

bpearis, I screw up my facts, too, but I also deserve to be criticized for that.

[SobaAddict70]

The first point as to where it's getting its Sichuan peppercorns isn't important. It's a short piece that focuses on a specific restaurant, not a restaurant expose on forbidden imported ingredients.

Likewise, the third point isn't important. Mr. Ismail learned how to make the dish, as the article says, from his Thai-Chinese grandmother. Why Mr. Ismail's own background is relevant to the dish escapes me.

Finally, it must be remembered that the DJs are not considered full reviews but rather notices of an impending review down the road. Based on what's been said about Spice Market on this board and elsewhere, even if Mr. Sifton's article doesn't persuade you to dine there, I trust that the opinions of others might.

However all these things said, I would agree that facts need to be checked regardless of the size of the article.

Soba

[Pan]

Soba, I didn't say where the Sichuan peppercorns were obtained is something that should have been mentioned in the article, just that it raised my eyebrows that they have a way of getting them. But I continue to find it odd for someone named Mohan Ismail to be identified as "Malaysian-Chinese." Seems about as odd as calling someone with an obviously Chinese-sounding full name a German-American.

Hmmm....I'm wondering whether what Sifton means by "Malaysian-Chinese" is that his father is a Malaysian Muslim and his mother is Chinese (from Malaysia or somewhere else? Perhaps Thailand?)...

So far, no-one's opinion has persuaded me to go to Spice Market, but I don't start off as neutral when a new Vongerichten "Asian" restaurant opens, since I remember my two meals at Vong. So for any positive review to have much impact with me, it would help for it to be written by someone who has expertise with the "original" versions of some of the dishes cooked there, and in that connection, some knowledge about their "places of origin" would help. I hope nobody misunderstands me. I don't mean to suggest that for a person to have good taste, that person has to have travelled a lot or know a lot about whatever cuisine they're consuming, but I'm sure connoiseurs of French food would be the first to say that some knowledge and experience helps a person to better understand and appreciate the cuisine, and the same is true of Asian cuisines. It's best for a reviewer to have a combination of good taste and knowledge.

[SobaAddict70]

Mr. Sifton is one of the interim restaurant critics for the New York Times. The Diner's Journals are traditionally written by the main restaurant critic for the Times. It may be that Mr. Sifton is not experienced with various cuisines to the extent that William Grimes was...but that shouldn't necessarily fault him for the latest DJ.

I understand your point Pan, except that time waits for no one, not even restaurant critics. It may be that the Times will have its main critic picked and in place by the time that the official review for Spice Market rolls around. We'll just have to wait and see.

In the meantime, chalk this DJ to just plain bad timing.

The restaurant is not necessarily a Vongrichten operation through and through. Gray Kunz is in the kitchen, so I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the place based on your two meals at Vong (which if memory serves, was some time ago, yes?). That would be a bit like dismissing Otto out of hand just because of a couple of disappointing meals that you may have had at Po.

Soba

[Pan]

Yes, the meals were quite awhile ago. The rest of your post makes sense to me, too.

[slkinsey]

Right... well, I think we've reached a point here where any further discussion on Mr. Sifton's review, fact checking and whatnot is more appropriate for another thread, as we don't want to get far too afield from our topic, which is to talk about Spice Market.

[JMayer]

Sometimes I think these digressions get a little out of hand. Yes, Mr. Sifton said some things that appear to be invalid. And yes they deserve to be pointed out, however, after that what else are we learining by discussing this matter. At least for me the point of this website is to learn from each other about food, not about discussing how someones opinion is invalid. This being said everyones opinion needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

-Justin

[ned]

I'm no expert but did spend a few days in Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia) some years ago. There is a very large muslim population there. Also I had some of the best dim sum I've ever had in their Chinatown. Many Chinese emigrated there at some point, not sure when, might have been around the cultural revolution, the wife says was at the turn of the century which lends creedence to my memory that the dim sum place was a hundred years old. Sure looked it. Anyway, people breed and cultures collide and so, to me, it's not impossible that Mr. Ismail is the result of some of this.

[rslee]

A relatively newbie here from the California forum, but since I know Mohan and work with him, I thought I would add in. The article is partially correct about Mohan Ismail, but it left out that he has Indian ancestory on his father's side.

Robert

[Pan]

I got that.

Is his mother Malaysian Chinese or Thai Chinese?

[Bux]

Both Jean Georges and Gray Kunz have a hand in this restaurant. Is Kunz actually in the kitchen? is he here now and will he be here when his brasserie opens in the Time Warner Building? Is Stanley Wong not the day to day executive chef as Marcus mentioned earlier in the thread? Both Jean Georges Vongerichten and Gray Kunz have considerable experience working successfully with Asian, European and American products and flavors. They are both four star chefs with great reputations for what they can do, whether or not I like every restaurant they've ever opened or every dish of theirs I've ever eaten. Kunz may even have grown in stature without a restaurant because everyone has been waiting for his reappearance with baited breath for years. (If they haven't, they should have been.) It would be interesting to know who was responsible for what and how they arrived at the opening menu dishes.

Sam Sifton, unless I'm mistaken, is not just one of the interim restaurant critics for the New York Times. He is also the editor of the Dining section of the NY Times. I assume he needs to know what he knows and what he doesn't know and that he needs to oversee what's published and know who knows what when he's assigning articles. To an extent, the buck stops at his desk when errors are reported as fact. However, while it annoyes me that a reader might come away thinking Sriracha sauce was Indonesian rather than Thai, I doubt that little bit of misinformation is particularly relevent to any appreciation of Spice Market. Maybe I'm also getting old enough to sympathize with momentary lapses of memory, if not with the absence of fact checking. My point here would be that anyone who needed to know if the food was authentic, is probably missing the point of the restaurant and probably too much a hostage of his prejudices, to enjoy Spice Market, which, by the way, seems an entirely reasonable thing as long as such subjectivity is not expressed as an objective opinion.