Zagat's Paris

[Freckles]

I have been in Posting Overdrive lately, I know. I've been in Paris since May, and have only recently felt I had the time/job security/housing stability to get out and travel/eat/learn in Paris and its surroundings. So please, bear with me! My next question is about the value of the Zagats Paris guide. While living in New York in the mid 1990s, I loved the NY Zagats guide. Granted, neither its audience nor writers tend to be real Foodies, but for ideas of where to go in the city and a 2-sentence sense of what the place was like/how much it cost, for someone who isn't a real Foodie herself, it was invaluable. I arrived in France with my Paris Zagats in hand but haven't found it particularly useful and it now collects dust on my mantle. Has anyone else had experience with this guide in our Fair City?

[John Whiting]

Zagat will tell you what American tourists think about Paris restaurants. For a native view, consult Le Pudlo Paris. The 2004 edition should be out. EDIT: Yes, came out in October.

Even for those whose French is as bad as mine, it's comprehensible enough to be very useful.

Edited February 18, 2004 by John Whiting (log)

[menton1]

We have talked at length on the NY forum about Zagat and how mysterious and misleading their "survey" can be. They routinely exclude restaurants for unknown reasons, never reveal how they arrive at their ratings numbers, and overall it has been agreed that Zagat has become much too powerful in New York, to be taken with many grains of salt.

That being said, I have found the Paris Zagat to be particularly useless. I have mentioned Jules Pudlowski many times, his book is very thoughtful and useful, and then, just recently, a long discussion about Michelin here on the France thread has shown some problems with Michelin ratings of late. Basically, the €15 you would spend on Zagat Paris could be better spent on a few coffees!

Edited February 18, 2004 by menton1 (log)

[Bux]

The Zagat guide to NY is overrated and under-useful. It's conceptually flawed. I have the same faith in its ratings as I have in the fact that the best man has always been elected. Democracy is flawed when the voters are not intelligent, well versed in the facts and discerning in their judgment.

I have heard little positive said about Pudlo either, but I am less will versed with his guide.

The Michelin Guide Rouge is peerless, or at least it was until The Michelin Guide feud went public.

[John Whiting]

I have heard little positive said about Pudlo either, but I am less will versed with his guide.

If anything it's too inclusive. I ate at one top-rated bistro that was OK but not that good, and at another that shouldn't have been there at all; nevertheless, it's led me to some good bistros the English guides haven't discovered and I've found it very useful.

[menton1]

Another nice thing about Pudlo is that the reviews are usually a couple of hundred words with descriptions of the ambience, and the background of the chefs and the types of cuisine. Other than the stars, (or forks) there is hardly any information in the Michelin!

[OAKGLEN]

We find the Zagat Paris guide helpful, primarily when searching by arr. or looking for a restaurant open on the weekends etc. The food rating can by "gamed" however; it is not uncommon to see as much as a 5 or 6 point rating change from one issue to the other. Over time these seen to even out; perhaps it simply reflects the limited number of submissions on many of the non-tourist oriented restaurants. JP

[Bux]

I have heard little positive said about Pudlo either, but I am less will versed with his guide.

If anything it's too inclusive. I ate at one top-rated bistro that was OK but not that good, and at another that shouldn't have been there at all; nevertheless, it's led me to some good bistros the English guides haven't discovered and I've found it very useful.

I could say the same thing about the phone book. It's also too inclusive, but it does include all the good restaurants.

[robyn]

The Zagat guide to NY is overrated and under-useful. It's conceptually flawed. I have the same faith in its ratings as I have in the fact that the best man has always been elected. Democracy is flawed when the voters are not intelligent, well versed in the facts and discerning in their judgment.

I have heard little positive said about Pudlo either, but I am less will versed with his guide.

The Michelin Guide Rouge is peerless, or at least it was until The Michelin Guide feud went public.

I always buy Zagat guides when I'm going to big cities. The most important function they serve is telling me what restaurants are in the neighborhood I happen to be in when I get hungry. Then I can cross-reference (am I interested in Italian, Indian, perhaps a sandwich - big deal, little deal - then I can do a walk-by and size up a place visually). That's why I just bought a Zagat's for London (won't use it to decide where I'll eat perhaps 2-3 big deal dinner meals - but it will probably work for all lunches and a couple of after-theater dinners).

I would think the New York guide might serve the same purpose for people who live there as it does for me (whenever I get together with a friend in New York and we go to a neighborhood that isn't that person's home turf - they don't know seem to know doodle about the restaurants - mind you - I'm not casting blame - New York's a big city). On the other hand - people in New York do seem to be a little weird judging from the conversations here (like you might not try out Per Se because it's not on the ground floor - GMAFB ). Robyn

[DRColby]

We used Zagat's last year in Paris and found it didn't work very well, I think the obvious problem with it is that they don't get enough participation to make the ratings very meaniful and accurate. I think Zagat's works well in NY where it has a huge following but not in the newer areas where participants are few.

dave

[Pan]

Many of us don't think Zagat's works well in New York, either. I certainly don't.

[jgould]

knowing both tim & nina, the zagat's guide/empire is simply brilliant!! as for its usefulness for those that really care about food & restaurant description accuracy NADA!

i would never use a zagat's for paris. we have already dumbed down enough!

[jgould]

I have mentioned Jules Pudlowski many times, his book is very thoughtful and useful,

just a correction & certainly not meant to nit pic:

its gilles, not jules, pudlowski

[Janedujour]

[i could say the same thing about the phone book. It's also too inclusive, but it does include all the good restaurants. 

[elfin]

Bux has been my "Zagat" when it comes to recommending places in France. We went to some of the places he recommeded in Lyon and they were wonderful. All too often a popular place is not the best. The Zagat may be useful in address, phone and cost info-but that is about it.

[Bux]

knowing both tim & nina, the zagat's guide/empire is simply brilliant!! as for its usefulness for those that really care about food & restaurant description accuracy NADA!

i would never use a zagat's for paris. we have already dumbed down enough!

No one has ever implied that publishing or selling the guides was less than a good idea. it's buying and using them that I find to be on the losing side. Hell, I wish I thought of it first.

On the other hand, the philosophy I espouse above might also require me to say it was a brilliant idea for Bayless to sell Burger King sandwiches. Do Tim and Nina believe their publications are a good guide to where to eat. (That's a retorical question. They're certainly smart enough to know how to answer that in public.)

[Bux]

Bux has been my "Zagat" when it comes to recommending places in France.

You have your own problems. Actually, does that mean you recommend places based on my posts, or that you eat in them?

Taste is so subjective. I don't know of a guide or critic whose ratings I fully trust or haven't found some shortcoming in quick time. For that, I'd generally prefer to go to a restaurant based on some one person's very strong recommendation than a fairly consistent good recommendation from a panel. It's useful to get to know the taste of the person whose reviews or posts you intend to follow, but I assure you that eventually you will find yourself at odds with someone who's been reliable in the past.

[robyn]

Many of us don't think Zagat's works well in New York, either. I certainly don't.

It actually works great if you use it the way I use it. Say it's 11:50 - and I'm at the Whitney. Want to eat and go back. I'm not familiar with the neighborhood. I just look up the sections east 70's/80's. Narrow it down further by eliminating the places say east of 3rd avenue. Scroll down the list - maybe looking for some kind of food in particular or not wanting some kind of food in particular. Pick a few likely candidates - call with supplied phone numbers and make sure they're open for lunch. Walk by - and try what looks good. I've eaten at some good restaurants that way (some dogs too - but such is life). And the book fits easily into my purse.

Is it a good guide in terms of food ratings. No. But - since that's not the way I use it - I don't care. Robyn

[elfin]

Following another's recommendation is what we all do to some extent. Unless you are walking down a street and 'discovered' a place, dining choices are, pardon the pun, word of mouth. So you have to consider the source. You would not accept a rec from a colleague who you know has different tastes, tolerences and budget. But when dining in a foreign place, we typically consult guide books, newspaper articles/reviews and the conceirge-all sources that you frankly do not know (and perhaps question their loyalty). So, after following this board for some time, listening to the dialogue/banter, you do form an affinity/respect for the posters. Something just clicks. Bux and loufood are way out of my league in terms of food experiences and sophistication-so I really learn from their posts. My trip to Lyon last year was less stressful since their recs for dining with a baby in this food mecca saved me a lot of time in research which I would have done in a former life. Since the recs were spot on, I will rely again on these folks. Zagat's global recs are just that. Just because a place is popular does not mean that it will suit you.

[Bux]

Bux and loufood are way out of my league in terms of food experiences and sophistication

Louisa is out of my league too and she's young enough to be my daughter. Come to think of it, my daughter is out of my league as well. I suppose some people would credit me for doing something right.

[paulbrussel]

The last issue of GaultMillau Magazine has an article on Zagat Paris and that sort of guides.

[Freckles]

Thanks, paul. I don't know that magazine. Can I find it online? Thank you.

[paulbrussel]

http://www.gaultmillau.fr and: http://www.gaultmillaubenelux.com/

I don't see anything about the magazine, but the Nouveau GaultMillau Magazine comes out every two months; it's only in French.

[Bux]

GaultMillau almost seemed as if it was going out of business last year. The guide appeared to be in trouble and the old GaultMillau magazine ceased publication. Then the Nouuveau GaultMillau arrived on the stands. I only know what I see in public about this. I have to wonder if the Michelin revelations are going to hurt Michelin's reputation and how that may affect the other restaurant guides in France. One of the things I've liked about the GaultMillau magazine, is that in addition to restaurants, the magazine has featured and compared food stuffs such as chocolates, wine, and andouilles with comparative ratings and texts. Most of that is rather academic to me, as I'm not in a position to buy and use most of the products with any regularity however.

[Margaret Pilgrim]

I continue to buy (the reinvented) Gault Millau magazine for new restaurant ideas, interesting country lodging and usable food ideas and recipes. I find that Elle a Table is as good, if not better, in these areas. I buy both magazines, as well as Thuries and French Saveurs when I am in France, at ridiculous prices at newsstands here, and someday when I am rich, I'll subscribe to all of them. Of course, by then they will probably fall under the category of armchair travel.

IMHO, these are seriously good and current sources of restaurant information.

I am adding that some of our best and most timely information has been from Le Figaro's weekly entertainment tab, "Figaroscope". This is where we first heard about Le Clos des Gourmets, Les Magnolias, Le Pamphlet, Le Troquet, Le Bamboche, L'Agape, even L'Astrance, and most recently, Au Gourmand. At the time they were featured in Figaroscope, these restaurants were just being discovered. Some of these dining rooms have survived the test of time better than others, but all were quite good when they made their first appearance in Figaroscope. You can subscribe to Figaroscope's net version at Figaroscope. The e-mail version arrives every Thursday, and is free...at least for a while.

Edited February 27, 2004 by Margaret Pilgrim (log)