Sorbet: Tips, Techniques, Troubleshooting, and Recipes

[chiantiglace]

oh i almost forgot. A ot of the time when we blend a wine and a dish you could easily make a wine reduction and use that as your stabilizer.

[nightscotsman]

I think you're going to need to invest in some invert sugar, usually goes by the name of trimoline or numoline, google it, you'll find it.

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Invert sugars such as trimoline are actually much sweeter than sugar (sucrose), so while they will do a good job lowering the freezing point, they may not be what you're looking for. Glucose/corn syrup is less sweet, but using too much will tend to give a rubbery texture to the finished product.

[tan319]

This book, whilst being pretty damned expensive, I know has some savory recipes in it.

http://www.chipsbooks.com/artglace.htm

[nathanm]

Yes, I have that book.... it is very good but it does not help much on this topic.

For example it has Langostine ice cream - which is the sort of thing that I want to make.

However, the recipe they have is full of sugar:

600 grams milk

60 grams butter

40 grams egg yolk

60 grams sugar

90 grams atomized glucose

80 grams non-fat dry milk

4 grams stabilizer

130 grams Langoustine reduction (like a bisque)

Or, Pistou ice cream (pistou is French pesto - basil, garlic, pine nuts...)

600 grams milk

60 grams olive oil

40 grams egg yolk

60 grams sugar

90 grams atomized glucose

100 grams non-fat dry milk

6 grams stabilizer

6 grams salt

1 gram black pepper

40 grams pistou

Compare this to one of their recipies for vanilla ice cream

600 grams milk

60 grams butter

80 grams egg yolk

128 grams sugar

34 grams atomized glucose

50 grams non-fat dry milk

2 grams stabilizer

1.5 vanilla beans

So, the difference is that the "savory" recipes have 140 grams of sugar + glucose while the vanilla ice cream has 162 grams of sugar + glucose. Not much of a difference. Changing the ratio of sugar (i.e. sucrose) to glucose will effect sweetness, but it is clear that all of these are really quite sweet.

There is also more egg, and less powdered milk in the vanilla, but that is a different sort of change.

I have not made these recipes (but have made other things from the book). It is great ice cream, but is not the truly savory version I am looking for. Their "savory" recipes are still very sweet ice creams.

[tan319]

I had seen the lang. recipe, but thought perhaps there were others.

You could try backing the sugar down, couldn't you?

Also, something I saw the other day in the Spain focused Feb. issue of Food & Wine.

Sergi Arola has a book out which is in English, he's the chef from La Broche.

There's a recipe for mozzeralla ice cream.

They list Kitchen Arts and Letters for it but I would google it.

The book is called 'Cooking is Fun'.

I first really read about him in a book called 'Hip Chefs, Hot Cuisine'.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

It features a collection of "Forward" thinking chefs, mostly Spanish or French, the bios are cool,the recipes are in weights and there are a lot of more savory leaning sorbets, gelees and ice creams.

You can get it pretty cheap too.

If you have access to the El Bulli 98/02 book/cdrom, there are many savory ice creams.

Of course, more then a few cheese ones but you get my drift.

If you want to investigate that ave.and don't have access, PM me.

[akwa]

making a "whipped gelee" is the easiest way to make a savory sorbet.

set a light sugarfree gelee and freeze it, allowing the paco to whip it.

this is a "sorbet"

[nathanm]

I just ordered "cooking is fun", and also the "hip chefs hot cuisine" book. Thanks for the suggestions!

Also, thanks for the suggestion of freezing a gelee....I will try that but from previous experience I think that the right combination of gel + fat + dry matter must be achieved. Also, there is a question of which sort of gel to use - ice cream stabilizer in higher than normal concentration, or something else like sheet gelatine, micri, agar...

[tan319]

Congrats, nathanm!

I really like the 'Hip chefs...' book.

If you don't mind, let me know what you think of the Sergi Arola book when you get it.

Really intrigued by his style.

He opened a Miami branch of his place but i don't think it flew.

There's still a profile on the Starchefs.com rising stars page/Miami.

[akwa]

I just ordered "cooking is fun", and also the "hip chefs hot cuisine" book.  Thanks for the suggestions!

Also, thanks for the suggestion of freezing a gelee....I will try that but from previous experience I think that the right combination of gel + fat + dry matter must be achieved.    Also, there is a question of which sort of gel to use - ice cream stabilizer in higher than normal concentration, or something else like sheet gelatine, micri, agar...

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straight up gelatin is the most flexible, no pun intended

take care to have the base properly frozen and spin at the last second before serving for optimal results,

youre welcome to come on by if you want, we make a variety of products like this

good luck

[nathanm]

Great - I will experiment. Come on by where??

[tan319]

Cru!

Dude!!!

[nwyles]

Desserts not being my forte, I am looking to you for a good recipe for sorbet.

I use a Pink Grapefruit sorbet in a martini . I have made it in the past but mine always turns out rock solid after I freeze it. I run it through my ice cream machine, and then place in the freezer.

I use juice, sugar and water. When it comes out of the ice cream machice it is ok, but after a couple of days in freezer, hard as a rock.

Am I missing something ?

[yourmyboyblue]

probably need more sugar. try this.....

pink grapefruit puree 4400 g

water 2840 g

sugar 2150 g

glucose powder 570 g

sorbet stabilizer 40 g

make syrup with water and 3/4 sugar. mix remaining sugar with glucose powder and stabilizer, then whisk into warm syrup. you may need to strain the syrup b/c of undissolved glucose powder. pour over semi frozen puree. burre mix, let mature for 4-5 hours, burre mix again, then spin. about 8 min in batch freezer.

[nwyles]

probably need more sugar.  try this.....

pink grapefruit puree    4400 g

water                          2840 g

sugar                          2150 g

glucose powder            570 g

sorbet stabilizer            40 g

make syrup with water and 3/4 sugar.  mix remaining sugar with glucose powder and stabilizer,  then whisk into warm syrup.  you may need to strain the syrup b/c of undissolved glucose powder.  pour over semi frozen puree.  burre mix, let mature for 4-5 hours, burre mix again, then spin.  about 8 min in batch freezer. 

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Where would I get sorbet stabilizer ?

[yourmyboyblue]

uh, i see you are in canada. im not familiar with that area. (im in atlanta) try asking the perveyor (sp?) that you get your pastry stuff (i.e chocolate, vanilla beans....) from. i imagine you can get it online somewhere too. maybe someone else in canada can chime in.

[Moopheus]

Where would I get sorbet stabilizer ?

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You could just use a little corn syrup. What's happening is that as the sorbet sits in the freezer, the small ice crystals are melting and reforming as larger ice crystals, and more free water is freezing in the very low temperatures. To a certain extent it is inevitable in a home freezer because of the way they cycle. THe other thing to do is not make more than you're going to use in a day or so, and let the sorbet soften on the counter.

[yourmyboyblue]

im not sure that you can substitute corn syrup for stabilizer. stablizers are kinda like sponges that absorb or release moisture according to the mix. (ice crystals melt and then refreeze, producing a horrible texture) in acidic (like grapefruit) or sweet mixes the stablizer shouldnt exceed 1% of the total mix. ever seen a sorbet "leech"? common with lemon, grapefruit, passion fruit, etc.... these are very liquid mixes (no pulp or body) and need the absortion of a stablizer to work. btw, stabilizers also help with "fluffyness" i like fluffyness

also i forgot to mention that the puree is commercially produced from ravifruit or someone like that. those are 10% sugar content normally and are very consistent. dont use canned grapefruit juice.

[tan319]

There's two ways to go, or at least there was for me.

If you want to stay with the water, syrup, juice/puree route, get one of these.

http://pastrychef.com/Catalog/syrup_densit...ter_2121441.htm

Measuring Baume is how you're going to get a creamy texture(18 to 20degrees) that has less chances of going rock hard on you.

Getting the balance right is very important and this will help greatly, at least it did for me.

If you want to go the other route for sorbes, using atomized glucose, stabilizers, etc., which I'm in no way "pooh pooing", then you should try the Cremoden sorbet stabilizer, it's either #30 or #64, and on the back of the can there's charts that serve as a guideline for either sweet or acidic fruits.

It's quite helpful.

Most of the time I make my sorbets "straight", mainly because I find it works for me and also because making the sorbet "base" is more efficient in large quanities, so you have it on hand and just use either the sweet fruit base or the acidic fruit base.

But if not used within two weeks or so the base will go kind of murky on you.

Try the link and maybe get a hydrometer, go that way at first.

I think you'll be satisfied with the results.

Good Luck!

Edited to add:

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!

If you are going to be dragging your sorbets in and out of freezers, in very hot kitchens, or cooks or servers are going to be using these and leaving them out for long periods of time before remembering to put them back, you should absolutely be using a stabilizer.

Nothing will prevent crystals under those conditions.

Also:

Y.M.B.B. is also right on about watery fruits, even soda.

They're very difficult to get right, even though I never have too much trouble with lemon.

I used sorbet base( sweet) to make root beer sorbet and that was VERY tricky.

Wanted to leech like crazy!!!

Edited February 1, 2005 by tan319 (log)

[yourmyboyblue]

There's two ways to go, or at least there was for me.

If you want to stay with the water, syrup, juice/puree route, get one of these.

http://pastrychef.com/Catalog/syrup_densit...ter_2121441.htm

Measuring Baume is how you're going to get a creamy texture(18 to 20degrees) that has less chances of going rock hard on you.

Getting the balance right is very important and this will help greatly, at least it did for me.

If you want to go the other route for sorbes, using atomized glucose, stabilizers, etc., which I'm in no way "pooh pooing", then you should try the Cremoden sorbet stabilizer, it's either #30 or #64, and on the back of the can there's charts that serve as a guideline for either sweet or acidic fruits.

It's quite helpful.

Most of the time I make my sorbets "straight", mainly because I find it works for me and also because making the sorbet "base" is more efficient in large quanities, so you have it on hand and just use either the sweet fruit base or the acidic fruit base.

But if not used within two weeks or so the base will go kind of murky on you.

Try the link and maybe get a hydrometer, go that way at first.

I think you'll be satisfied with the results.

Good Luck!

Edited to add:

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!

If you are going to be dragging your sorbets in and out of freezers, in very hot kitchens, or cooks or servers are going to be using these and leaving them out for long periods of time before remembering to put them back, you should absolutely be using a stabilizer.

Nothing will prevent crystals under those conditions.

←

[yourmyboyblue]

There's two ways to go, or at least there was for me.

If you want to stay with the water, syrup, juice/puree route, get one of these.

http://pastrychef.com/Catalog/syrup_densit...ter_2121441.htm

Measuring Baume is how you're going to get a creamy texture(18 to 20degrees) that has less chances of going rock hard on you.

Getting the balance right is very important and this will help greatly, at least it did for me.

If you want to go the other route for sorbes, using atomized glucose, stabilizers, etc., which I'm in no way "pooh pooing", then you should try the Cremoden sorbet stabilizer, it's either #30 or #64, and on the back of the can there's charts that serve as a guideline for either sweet or acidic fruits.

It's quite helpful.

Most of the time I make my sorbets "straight", mainly because I find it works for me and also because making the sorbet "base" is more efficient in large quanities, so you have it on hand and just use either the sweet fruit base or the acidic fruit base.

But if not used within two weeks or so the base will go kind of murky on you.

Try the link and maybe get a hydrometer, go that way at first.

I think you'll be satisfied with the results.

Good Luck!

Edited to add:

VERY IMPORTANT!!!!

If you are going to be dragging your sorbets in and out of freezers, in very hot kitchens, or cooks or servers are going to be using these and leaving them out for long periods of time before remembering to put them back, you should absolutely be using a stabilizer.

Nothing will prevent crystals under those conditions.

←

[yourmyboyblue]

whoops, sorry about the double post, i cant figure out how the quote just a section of the reply tan had a good point about the in and out of freezer. just melt and refreeze if it starts to get too soft and always have backups. how do you quote just a section of the dang post??????????

Edited February 1, 2005 by yourmyboyblue (log)

[tan319]

Or, instead of melting and refreezing everyday, you can threaten certain death if people keep screwing your stuff up

[yourmyboyblue]

lol, or teach the bartenders to run sorbets

[nwyles]

Lots of info here.

I am sourcing out stabilizers with local baking supplier.

Why no canned juice ? I normally squeeze a case of Ruby grapefruits but was thinking of using a 1 litre boxed juice.

Neil

[nwyles]

lol,  or teach the bartenders to run sorbets

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First, I would have to teach mine to walk upright !