Gastro Pub Club...

[CheGuevara]

gastropubs....

i've been waiting for this thread for a while.

i regularly experience huge disappointment with gastropubs. i've decided it's because they generally cook the kind of food i cook at home, but often at restaurant prices and with a smoker next to me.

and it drives me mad.

so, i'm looking for those gastropubs that consistently deliver good food at reasonable prices. i'm also keen to hear if other people share my frustration...

for the most part, yes. in summary my frustrations with gastro-pubs fall into the follwoing:

1. value for money (see above quote)

2. inability to eat anything non french or british (ie - forget the risottos and pastas)

having said that - the potential is brilliant; the old canteen with its creaking floors speaking to you as you come in from the cold, offering you a warm stew dressed in pauper's clothes of chopped parsely and raw oil... - but the balance between quality, price, and ambience is so difficult for me to find.

i read somewhere: "i don't go to mcdonald's for a healthy salad, i go there for a milkshake"; that is my grudge with most gastro-pubs i've been to: "i don't go there for the culinary experience of my life, i go there for hearty home-style food -and i don't want white linens on my table!"

-che

edit: had a second thought - this could be a london phenomenon...?

Edited July 8, 2004 by CheGuevara (log)

[Suzi Edwards]

good question. i rarely eat outside of london so i can't comment on the quality of the gastropubs there.

is it worth us defining what a gastropub is? not sure we've done that so far. i think i'd like a list.

to me, a gastropub is an independant/non chain pub that serves homemade food It is different to a restaurant because the food is generally grounded in european peasant food and there isn't linen on the table

what do people think? is that right? it doesn't feel right to me. i'm trying to work out what differentiates a gastropub from a. a pub and b. a restaurant and what sort of food i expect to find on the menu.

[Winot]

How about a pub that serves food that aspires to be as good as that of a restaurant but without the formality?

[Suzi Edwards]

erm. yes. i like that.

[MobyP]

I think part of the gastro pub aesthetic comes from the fact that there hasn't existed in this country a culinary world at this level, spread this broadly. As I said before; the French culture gravitates around the bistro, as the Us has the Diner. The twentieth century in England was a cornucopia of sausages chips and beans.

Sure, the dominant techniques applied are Western European, but what else could they be, realistically? We simply don't have an extensive high or medium brow culinary culture to draw on (other than the old houses). But we do have what comes from the land. The ingredients (at the best places) are carefully selected, and local. The farming in this country has produced remarkable ingredients. Ah well, I'm blathering.

[CheGuevara]

How about a pub that serves food that aspires to be as good as that of a restaurant but without the formality?

as a definition this is right on the money. it doesn't define the food however, and moby's post just above clearly defines the role of the gastro-pub in 21st century england; and it has all to do about the food. i'd like to qualify the food, it needs to be unsophisticated, more baout the products than the technique, and served so.

"a pub that serves authentic, quality, comfort food without the formality of a restaurant." (on second thought the food should not aspire to be that of a restaurant, that is de facto.)

maybe it's as easy as a bistro in pub's clothing.

-che

[Scott]

to me, a gastropub is an independant/non chain pub that serves homemade food It is different to a restaurant because the food is generally grounded in european peasant food and there isn't linen on the table

Tarka,

I kinda get where you're coming from, but isn't that a bit nebullous? I guess I am not really sure what all that means.

For me, a gastro pub, is:

1. a pub - i.e. oriented around drinking and convivial gathering.

2. serves good food to pub goers

3. does not have pretensions towards being a restaurant or bistro.

4. no there certainly isn't linen

As an example, the Earl Spencer mentioned above, is a nice little venue - but it's not a pub.

put my 2 cents into the egullet piggy bank.

[YKL]

Friend and I had a very pleasant Sunday lunch at the Durham Ox yesterday. It's at Crayke, just north of York, about 20-30 mins drive northwards from the centre (depending on who's behind the wheel!). Ate in the bar for a more informal feel, but looks like the beer garden at the back would give you an excellent view of the vales and green hills etc. Apparently this is the hill where the duke of york has 10,000 men and marched them up to the top of the hill etc etc. We had no such thoughts of marching - food was what we wanted!

We each had a starter - my fishcakes were light and tasty, and her breaded camembert was polished off pretty quickly. Then onto roast beef with roasties and yorkshire pud for us both - and meat was tender and juicy - so all good. We were too full for dessert each so split a granny smith brulee with vanilla shortbread biscuits. Was very yummy with a creamy custard and hidden nuggets of apple. I tried to convince my friend that it was like a lower fat or carb version of apple pie since there was no pastry - just custard and apple. She wasn't convinced!

We had a coffee each, but sadly they let themselves down since both of them were excessively bitter - even with extra milk. Still - at £50 for two people, it's pretty good if you're in that neck of the woods.

Admittedly the Star Inn at Harome is only another 30 mins away, but it can be difficult getting a table there. This place would be more than decent consolation.

cheers

Yin

[Marlyn4k]

The words Gastro and Pub just don't sit well together with me...

I think of pubs as spit, sawdust, the smell of beer, rickety chairs, bare wooden tables, skittles, smoke hazes, darts and cheap conversation.

Gastro on the other hand says smart, comfortable, special night out, sommelier, decor, ambience, service and meet and greet.

I guess it comes back to the age old question of 'how do you rate a restaurant?' Is it simply the food? Or do other aspects justify the bill for you - The setting? The atmosphere? The Service? and so on.

Someone said that one of the Gastropubs had an ex-chef from Chez Bruce...well you can have three courses for £32.50 at the One Star, 6/10 GFG Chez Bruce so why have it in a Gastropub?

Have I missed the point?

Edited July 20, 2004 by Marlyn4k (log)

[MobyP]

Marlyn - welcome to eGullet, and thanks for you posts.

I've blathered on about this a bit, and expect the knock on my door any day now, but for me it's not just about price; not just about ambience; it's not even just about the food; but rather the building of a new aesthetic and approach in this country to dining. We have a few fantastic restaurants. We have many average ones. But mostly we have a cornucopia of crap. I think we're building a more solid base - a broader one anyway. People are learning about food, slowly.

[CheGuevara]

The words Gastro and Pub just don't sit well together with me...

Have I missed the point?

absolutely! i would not venture down the road of judging opinions, as we say in argentina: "sobre gustos no hay nada escrito" - come to think of it there is plenty on the subject...anyways, back on topic. to me gastro and pub are a perfect combination.

an eating establishment fulfills us with all its elements, but we do go there to eat - and some of us to drink first. thus the food is of primary importance, but the whole, the careful balance of it all, that is how repeat customers are created. there is no fixed recipe for that balance; but i can say that good food, made with quality ingredients, in an clean place, with an environment whihc leaves you in a good mood has all it needs to succeed. be it the cafe with plastic chairs in sao paulo, or taillevent in paris.

Someone said that one of the Gastropubs had an ex-chef from Chez Bruce...well you can have three courses for £32.50 at the One Star, 6/10 GFG Chez Bruce so why have it in a Gastropub?

because the gastropub can combine the perfect setting for great food. it is a genuine and picturesque place, which oozes tradition.

eating well is all about education, and it begins at home. it then moves into the everyday restaurant, the local. those are the foundations which then create 3 starred restaurants; a culture with gastronomic traditions, the know-how. it is that clever combination which works so well for the gastropub, it is the beginning of a cultural - gastonomic - revolution for the UK.

-che

edit - btw, welcome

Edited July 20, 2004 by CheGuevara (log)

[Marlyn4k]

Hello Che

Out of interest, how does "sobre gustos no hay nada escrito" literally transalate? I hope it's not rude.

The initial quote is the perception I have of gastronomic restaurants opposed to the perception I have of pubs. My idea of a pre- gastronomic dinner drink is not a pint of Best. I personally gain far more pleasure from an evening of 'culinary theatre' and am therefore happy to pay a higher bill accordingly - but that comes back to the question of how do you rate a restaurant.

Certainly, if I were eating Chez Bruce food for the same price as Chez Bruce then I know where I'd rather eat it.

Having said this, there is clearly an established, predominantly urban, market for eating good food in more humble, laid back surroundings. So perhaps this is a cultural shift in dining out that is here to stay. There are clearly more and more customers looking to eat better executed meals produced with with far better and more adventurous ingredients.

Strangely, this may be driven by the decreasing interest in devoting time to cooking at home whilst disposable income increases. I would not disagree that "The Gastropub" may fill a niche in the ladder of considered restaurant "greatness" and at the same time fill a niche in the demand for quality food.

Judging my opinion is fine Che, in England, we call it debate.

[Suzi Edwards]

Gastro on the other hand says smart, comfortable, special night out, sommelier, decor, ambience, service and meet and greet.

I think some pubs are spit and sawdust, but i think you might find that the ones who called themselves gastropubs have generally got rid of the fruit machine in the corner.

Your description of gastro here is what I'd call a restaurant.

[MobyP]

Not too mention that many younger chefs in this country have been inclined towards this style of setting over the grander settings for sheer economic reasons - which is perhaps not dissimilar to some of the French chefs opening haute bistros rather than leaping into the Michelin race.

[Scott]

Your description of gastro here is what I'd call a restaurant.

I think, for me, that's the problem. there is often little difference between a gastro pub and a restaurant, except the gastro uses it's context to take liberties with things such as: price, comfort, service, amongst others.

[Scott]

but for me it's not just about price; not just about ambience; it's not even just about the food; but rather the building of a new aesthetic and approach in this country to dining.

Moby,

bare with me here, I am being serious when I say I think this also might be part of the problem. I agree entirely what you have said BTW.

But in France they have deconstructed the aesthetic of dining, in everything from Michelin chefs going grass roots i.e. Regalade; to a radical new concept restaurant in L'atelier Joel Robuchon.

If our efforts to reshape our lifestyle/dining relationship can only come up with the bastard child of a bistro and a pub, then we're all f****d.

Perhaps we just don't understand it well enough, or more like it's just not that important - it's not in our bones the same way.

[Marlyn4k]

Probably old news to eGullet, but just read this:

http://www.bonjourparis.com/pages/articles/articleId/1276

"Yves Camdeborde (him of the "bistrot-gastro" La Regalade, Paris; once second to Christian Constant at The Crillon; also with stints at The Ritz & La Tour d’Argent) has hung up his coppers to dedicate himself to his new project. Seems big Yves wants to spend more time with his two sprogs and "They made me an offer…" So where is it then? Well, Yves ain’t telling, but it’s going to be opening around September; a pension de famille in the Paris area, one assumes. There will be an open kitchen, "so I get to see that there is a world outside," he told BUZZ. Madame C will look after the hotel side of things; think twenty rooms. And think of booking soon: "Lunch will be open to the public, evenings for hotel guests only."

So perhaps La Regalade will be no more....

[Scott]

So perhaps La Regalade will be no more....

He has already been replaced, some 2 months ago if I recall accurately.

[MobyP]

If our efforts to reshape our lifestyle/dining relationship can only come up with the bastard child of a bistro and a pub, then we're all f****d.

Scott - I take this in the humourous, tutu-wearing, goat molesting, lean-pork eating manner in which it was meant, but if not the bastard offspring of a bistro and a pub, then what? A Vietnamese noodle stand mixed with a Siicilian fish sucking joint? A Russian caviar and Japanese Prosciutto palace? A Mongolian barbecue and Belgian moules/frites cave?

NAY - I say unto thee... A pub. A Bistro. A braised bit of pig's offal. What more could you ask for?

[Suzi Edwards]

Scott - I take this in the humourous, tutu-wearing, goat molesting, lean-pork eating manner in which it was meant, but if not the bastard offspring of a bistro and a pub, then what? A Vietnamese noodle stand mixed with a Siicilian fish sucking joint? A Russian caviar and Japanese Prosciutto palace? A Mongolian barbecue and Belgian moules/frites cave?

careful moby. the owners of shumi might be reading. we don't want to give them any more ideas.

[Winot]

Another reason for the growth of the gastropub is that it offers non-intimidating dining. You wouldn't believe how many friends I've got (all middle class, natch) who would feel very uncomfortable going to a restaurant, but feel much happier in a pub (even if the prices are comparable). And as for my parents...

It all comes back to the informality thing.

Edited July 22, 2004 by Winot (log)

[Suzi Edwards]

hummmm. gastropub as starter restaurant.

interesting. anything that makes more people eat out the better as far as i am concerned.

then my colleagues might stop thinking i am some sort of food obsessed fetishist "suzi, stop being so french with all this food stuff."

[Winot]

I'm sure you'll be able to keep ahead of the game Suzi.

[CheGuevara]

Hello Che

Out of interest, how does "sobre gustos no hay nada escrito" literally transalate? I hope it's not rude.

The initial quote is the perception I have of gastronomic restaurants opposed to the perception I have of pubs. My idea of a pre- gastronomic dinner drink is not a pint of Best. I personally gain far more pleasure from an evening of 'culinary theatre' and am therefore happy to pay a higher bill accordingly - but that comes back to the question of how do you rate a restaurant.

Certainly, if I were eating Chez Bruce food for the same price as Chez Bruce then I know where I'd rather eat it.

Having said this, there is clearly an established, predominantly urban, market for eating good food in more humble, laid back surroundings. So perhaps this is a cultural shift in dining out that is here to stay. There are clearly more and more customers looking to eat better executed meals produced with with far better and more adventurous ingredients.

Strangely, this may be driven by the decreasing interest in devoting time to cooking at home whilst disposable income increases. I would not disagree that "The Gastropub" may fill a niche in the ladder of considered restaurant "greatness" and at the same time fill a niche in the demand for quality food.

Judging my opinion is fine Che, in England, we call it debate.

marlyn,

"sobre gustos no hay nada escrito" litterally means "there's nothing written on tastes".

i agree judging even exchangig opinions is what we're here to do, i incorrectly referred to your tastes as opinions. hence the above quote.

we are venturing, as you point out in this last post, into semantics. my initial disagreement with your "gastro and pub don't sit well together" comment comes from the perceptions of what we have of each of those words - gastro and pub.

"Gastro on the other hand says smart, comfortable, special night out, sommelier, decor, ambience, service and meet and greet."

gastro to me means an interest in good food, or just good food, which in turn has little to do with ingredients or setting and more to do with passion, quality, tradition. it does not mean a ramseyesque establishment.

for this reason i think gastro and pub fit in perfectly - becuase a pub, which need not be smelly and filled with grime, provide that homely feel, filled with tradition which invite rather than repel customers.

-che

[spatchcock]

I've been seconded to Hammersmith (work-wise) for the foreseeable future, and was initially dismayed by the set of choices ranging from the food court at Hammersmith Tube to the (lack of) variety among sandwich shops up Hammersmith Road.

Since summer has broken, I've been quite pleased to discover a number of good pubs, including three gastros. Havelock, as has been mentioned, serves good beer. Unfortunately, they don't take plastic so eating was not an option that night.

The Queen's Head on Brook Green Road has a very interesting menu, but it's more of a winter place - very dark, low ceilings, ...

My current favourite is the Cumberland Arms on North End Road. Good food, good beer (Deuchars IPA, plus others), and backgammon. The just got wireless, too. Picnic tables for al fresco dining. Menu varied enough both on a given night and over the week to always have something interesting and appealing. Simple food, done to high spec and with quality ingredients. They even do good soup.

Our team has designated it as our Away-From-The-Client meeting place. Now if Drapers Arms (near home) and Cumberland could engineer a rip in the time-space continuum, I'd never leave.