Film Noir

[Toliver]

That may be true, but isn't part of the (not very well defined) definition of film noir that film noir is bad people acting bad in bad ways with very little or no hope of spiritual redemption being offered, or for that matter sought?

The main characters in most of the films that have become "film noir" are generally social outcasts, criminals, and degenerates of other sorts-they were supposed to be metephorical representations of society (generally American Society, although the style has it's roots in pre war Germany and France) as a whole.

In Casablanca, Rick is not inherently bad and certainly not a degenerate. He does have a (not very well defined)past as some kind of person who lives on the edge of the law and has become an expatriate, but in the end he sacrifices for the good of the others. In fact, the final scene , is in essence, a happy ending. This is not something that would define it as film noir.

The lighting and the large number of social outcasts in the film certainly have something in common with Film Noir, but in the end Casablanca (imo) is a tale of good versus evil (good represented by Rick and bad represented by the Vichy French and the Nazis) and while it is one of my favorite movies, it is really just a really romantic political/war/crime tale.

Lest this go off topic any further...

The ending of "Casablanca" is not a true happy ending. The guy in love with the girl didn't get the girl. This is happy? For that era to have a film end where the hero doesn't get the girl was practically heresy.

The character of Rick is concerned over only one person...himself ("I stick my neck out for no one") as in "What's in it for me?" No, not necessarily a bad guy but given the times, it wasn't a good stance to have in the world.

But thanks to Ilsa's return, he changes. Call it "redemption". The cynicism he had throughout the beginning of the film gives way to recognizing that there are bigger and better things out there in the world that we can be fighting for (another message given the times).

You want bad guys? Take Signor Ferrari (Sydney Greenstreet), Guillermo Ugarte (Peter Lorre), Maj. Heinrich Strasser (Conrad Veidt) and the likeable cad, Capt. Louis Renault (Claude Rains).

Yes, "Noir Light" I'd accept for "Casablanca", but Noir it is.

Perhaps any food recipes derived from the film can be made lower in calories ("Lite"...get it?) just to stay true to the spirit of the dinner.

[monkeymay]

Touch of Evil - Mexican Food

What about chili, candy bars and maryjane cigarettes?

[Carolyn Tillie]

Okay, I tried for an informed opinion and wrote the following e-mail to Tim Dirks, noted film historian and owner of Filmsite.org:

Greetings Mr. Dirks;

I am sure you asked frequently to engage in debates and I am hoping to entice you into another one. On a food-related chat-site, a poster began a thread asking for Film Noir-inspired cuisine for a party. Respecting and admiring your site for some time, I posted a series of answers in which the debate ensued...

Is Casablanca considered Film Noir?

If you would care to chime in, we would most appreciate an expert's opinion:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showtopic=36966&hl=

With kindest personal regards;

Carolyn Tillie

Contributing Editor

eGullet.com

His response:

Hi Carolyn:

I read through some of the threads there already - you have a fairly informed group about film noir posting responses, that I would mostly agree with. They have some creative menu options.

Just briefly, Casablanca is not a definitive film noir. Although it has some of noir's elements in its plot and cinematography, it's mostly a romantic drama.

Thanks for the comment about the site, and thanks for thinking of me.

Tim Dirks

Greatest Films, Author-Manager

http://www.filmsite.org

Am I vindicated?

Edited February 11, 2004 by Carolyn Tillie (log)

[Mayhaw Man]

Am I vindicated?

Clearly. You can go forth feeling clean and refreshed (not to mention correct )

I know that I feel better now.

[TrishCT]

I think Casablanca was headed towards true film noirdom, but the script was changed and the ending softened. Its also much better without Ronald Reagan who was being considered for the part of Rick.

[Mabelline]

Carolyn, YOU ROCK, gal!! Between your encyclopedic knowledge of ancient food, your excellent photojournalism. I am privileged to know you, even vicariously.

Edit to add: duh, and thorough film appreciation.

Edited February 11, 2004 by Mabelline (log)

[Squeat Mungry]

Okay, to continue into the depths of OT, do the Thin Man movies really count as noir? Sure there's the detective(s), corpses, light and shadow, etc., but they always struck me as too light-hearted and just plain funny to really have the noir effect.

And back to kinda on topic, was it The Thin Man or one of the others in which much of the action/plot took place in a restaurant in San Francisco's (or was it LA's) chinatown? (It's been too long since I've seen them.) So maybe chop suey or something? That is, if they count as noir.

Cheers,

Squeat

[Mabelline]

Yep, back to topic:

Thunder Road: Moonshine

Night of the Hunter: Stuffed Cabbage

Cape Fear: Young bird

[Jaymes]

The character of Rick is concerned over only one person...himself ("I stick my neck out for no one") as in "What's in it for me?"  No, not necessarily a bad guy but given the times, it wasn't a good stance to have in the world.

Not to mention that he owned a bar where, I am shocked, shocked to report, there was gambling going on. That wouldn't exactly have qualified him for deaconship in any American churches at the time, I don't think.

But for me, the main focus and thrust of the Film Noir genre was the heroine. Previously, heroines could be cute, beautiful, plain, plucky, quiet, sassy, brassy, sexy, brave, sophisticated, intelligent, simple, bold, shy, retiring, bookish, naive, fearful, rich, poor, sick, well. Even dead. Many things.

So long as she was a virgin.

To speak in the cinematic terms of the day, she'd better never have felt the undulating power of the ocean, the rise and fall of the tide, the crushing crescendo of the waves crashing and carrying her to shore, where she collapsed, spent upon the sand.

Oh, she'd get a pass if she were a grieving little widow woman, but she'd better have abstained since the departure of her beloved, and legal, husband.

And then one day into the office of the private dick there appeared a dame with a come-hither look and 'trouble' written all over her. Legs up to there. Legs that it seemed quite likely she had spread before, and might again if a fellow played his cards right. But there was danger in those legs. Falling for her might even get a fellow killed.

That was very, very different from any of the heroines before.

And here, too, Ilsa fits. It's made quite clear that back when Rick and Ilsa had Paris, they also had each other. And not only was this illicit sex out of wedlock, she was actually married to someone else. Falling for her held peril. It could lead to no good outcome for Rick.

I don't know. It fits for me.

But, Carolyn, I not only bow to your superior knowledge, I am quite thunderstruck at your enterprise and resources and ability to consult an expert.

So I'm certain that you're right as far as official definitions go.

Sigh.

But as for me, I'll just have to take my own personal "noir" where I find it. And I find it in Casablanca.

Edited February 11, 2004 by Jaymes (log)

[jgould]

may philip marlowe live forever. also, elliot gould in a more modern version of film noir. as for food while watching - no question:

entree: gin martinis - preferably gibsons

main course: salad, steak, potatoes

dessert: whiskey, neat

edited for effect

Edited February 11, 2004 by jgould (log)

[Carolyn Tillie]

Carolyn, YOU ROCK, gal!! Between your encyclopedic knowledge of ancient food, your excellent photojournalism. I am privileged to know you, even vicariously.

Edit to add: duh, and thorough film appreciation.

Merci, beaucoup.

Noting my signature line, this particular film is close to my heart so it was a matter I feel rather passionate about. (At one point in my checkered past, I was involved with a chap who writes and performs music scores for the restoration of silent films so I've seen lots and lots and lots of movies... I'm even sick enough to have a TV in almost every room JUST so I can watch old movies).

Perhaps some day we'll meet in person!

[Carolyn Tillie]

But, Carolyn, I not only bow to your superior knowledge, I am quite thunderstruck at your enterprise and resources and ability to consult an expert.

Naaah -- I'm just stubborn enough to want to prove a point.

But thanks all the same!

[jgould]

i love film noir. what is: anything by raymond chandler.

originally film noir was as the words suggest: black film. began with the 'B' movies in the 40's which filmed in black & white & took advantage of light & shadows to save on budgets, characterized by their lean & cynical scripts. the period lasted for only a short time, but luckily did evolve into a little more sophistication.

dick powell was probably most representative of the era.

now, where is my gimlet????

[lueid813]

These aren't noir . . . but if you're looking for a movie that's partially about food:

Italian cuisine is well represented in Goodfellas

There's some good cooking in Moonstruck

And that famous eating scene in Tom Jones

and Like Water for Chocolate is a fave of many people (but not me)

Babette's Feast is a very fine film, and ALL about food

Big Night is about a little restaurant

a Mexican-American food movie: Tortilla Soup

What's Cooking? is a multi-ethnic Thanksgiving day film

art-house Chinese/Taiwanese -- Eat Drink Man Woman

Japanese: Tampopo

African-American Soul Food

and of course . . . Who Is Killing the Great Chefs of Europe?

--

Part of Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House involves ad executive Cary Grant trying to come up with a catchy name for a canned meat product a la "Spam"

Imitation of Life is partially about pancakes

(interestingly, in both of those films it's an African-American maid who provides the essential contribution)

Edited April 1, 2004 by lueid813 (log)

[FistFullaRoux]

Here's one for you... I've heard Pulp Fiction described as film noir. Or at least an homage to it. There's a few food references in there.

Bacon is goooood.

French fries with mayo "They drown 'em in that *@#&"

Sprite - The "tasty beverage" to wash down...

The Kahuna Burger

The particular coffee that Tarantino got for Harvey Keitel's character

A $5 milkshake

Blueberry pancakes (or was it waffles?) from Bruce Willis' scene in the hotel before he went back for his watch.

Then Pop Tarts for the scene where he gets back to his apartment to find John Travolta on the can.

And of course, the ever popular "Royale with cheese"

[ktdid56]

Citizen Kane

Notorious

The Man Who Knew Too Much

The Rope

The Third Man

La Dolce Vita

Out of The Past (this movie was remade - Against All Odds)

Raging Bull

Sunset Boulevard

Anything by Bergman

Just to mention a few. Hope this helps a little.

Kate

PS - I love film noir. Popcorn, dim light, aaahhhhh.....

[tigerwoman]

These aren't noir . . . but if you're looking for a movie that's partially about food:

Italian cuisine is well represented in Goodfellas

There's some good cooking in Moonstruck

And that famous eating scene in Tom Jones

and Like Water for Chocolate is a fave of many people (but not me)

Babette's Feast is a very fine film, and ALL about food

Big Night is about a little restaurant

a Mexican-American food movie: Tortilla Soup

What's Cooking? is a multi-ethnic Thanksgiving day film

art-house Chinese/Taiwanese -- Eat Drink Man Woman

Japanese: Tampopo

African-American Soul Food

and of course . . . Who Is Killing the Great Chefs of Europe?

--

Part of Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House involves ad executive Cary Grant trying to come up with a catchy name for a canned meat product a la "Spam"

Imitation of Life is partially about pancakes

(interestingly, in both of those films it's an African-American maid who provides the essential contribution)

and don't forget

Ginger Rogers Kicking Carrot Soup.... Ginger Carrot Bisque

Fred Astaire Black Tie Strawberries... Elegantly dipped in Black CHocolate

Maryilyn Monroe Meets Krushev Quesadilla- Breast of Turkey with Russian Dressing.

[tigerwoman]

PS my husband and I owe the conception of our son to the Movie Moonstruck, it made us go out to a great Italian Restaurant, drink a great Italian Wine and give birth 9th monthes later to a kid who loves Italian food...

[Ovenfrenzy]

Serve a whole fish-Jack Nicholson in "Chinatown" says "I refuse to eat anything staring back at me." as he dines with the corrupt Noah Cross(John Huston).

[srhcb]

Parallel Universe Film Noir:

"Duck Soup" > Duck Soup

(soup nazi recipe)