The dangers of the high horse

[bilrus]

I eat cheez-its. I cool, right?

Orange fingers are always cool.

[Blondie]

I'm always amused by the fact that the people who are the least self-aware are often the most self-absorbed.

[robyn]

I heartily recommend that you and other New Yorkers take the time to see (and listen to) the rest of the country (a fair number of non-New Yorkers like me have seen most of it).  Robyn

i'm fairly certain that this isn't some sort of blanket statement about all, or even most people from NY. yes, of this i'm fairly certain.

I don't know because New York City has a lot of people. Most I know rarely venture outside of NYC - except perhaps to go to their weekend places a little bit outside NYC (a majority don't even know how to drive). And - when they do venture out a bit more - it's mostly to go to Miami. Your mileage - I hope - varies . Robyn

[Pan]

From robyn:

Well - if you want a point of view from someone who lives outside NYC and who has spent a lot of time there. My most indelible impression was on 9/12 (my husband and I happened to be in NYC on 9/11 - 9/10 was our anniversary) - sitting in a restaurant with an outside patio on the upper West Side for lunch. And with the WTC smoldering in the background - many of the people at that restaurant were saying that we deserved it - we had it coming to us. Most of the others simply considered it to be a massive inconvenience - like a bad snowstorm.

As far as I'm concerned, you were hanging out with some weird people. I haven't known any New Yorkers who expressed those attitudes to me. Ever. Maybe a little "the chickens are coming home to roost," but none of the rest of it. I don't know anyone in New York who thinks we deserved it, and I certainly didn't know anyone who thought the atrocities were just an inconvenience.

I heartily recommend that you and other New Yorkers take the time to see (and listen to) the rest of the country

Isn't that what I said?

Very well, perhaps we should get back to food now? How are your opinions about food different from those of a similarly situated New Yorker?

[tommy]

if you spend a lot of money, you're well-informed.

i just learned that today.

[jhlurie]

it occurs to me that sometimes people don't know how they're coming off.  i think a lot of the snobbishness and the other things discussed on this thread are really nothing more than people not understanding how they come off.  i'm sure we could find a few examples in this very thread illustrating that point.

That said, I still haven't seen anything on this thread which proves to me that snobbery and dismissive posting is the rule now on eGullet and not the exception. I've seen supporting evidence for specific incidents, but nothing that proves any kind of sea change or a need to collectively put everyone in a defensive mode. To me, the percentage of how much of this I have to put up with here isn't noticeably different than what I have to put up with in my everyday life. And that's why I really think that "real life" incidents are the meat of this topic--if we see or perceive this behavior here it is just a manifestation of what we are always dealing with in a big bad world filled with snobby and insensitive people.

[tommy]

That said, I still haven't seen anything on this thread which proves to me that snobbery and dismissive posting is the rule now on eGullet and not the exception.

just because it's the exception doesn't mean it's not noticed. and i don't think anyone has suggested it's the rule. if they have, then i'll say, again, that these things tend to stick out more.

[hillvalley]

I love it! We have our own group therapy sessions.

Vent away....

[jhlurie]

The premise of this topic is that its getting worse. Its in the first paragraph of the first post, and its been stated and restated. I think its perfectly valid to think that, of course, I'm just saying that I don't buy it as a given just because someone makes the observation. And while there's nothing wrong with a suggestion to be civil and considerate, there's also benefit in recognizing that the problem that Roux is talking about is a universal phenomenon, not a "local" one here. I see it every day in the real world... don't you?

[tommy]

i don't know that many people think it's getting worse. i do think that these things are cyclical, and i'm pretty sure a few share the opinion that we're in a pretty annoying part of the cycle right now. and i suppose that's why this thread is here. dismissing it does nothing. bringing it out into the open might do something.

[fifi]

Well... All I have to say is that in Texas we have snobbier snobs than any place on the planet. They are called BBQ brisket freaks. So there.  

I live in the south - and a southern brisket is the worst thing I've ever encountered! Point cut - with every trace of fat cut off. You try to braise it - and it winds up tasting like old shoes. So I don't know what everyone is being snobby about . Robyn

Then you haven't had Texas brisket. All the fat is left on. It goes for about 18 hours. It literally melts in your mouth. THAT is something to be snobby about.

Damn. I tried being insensitive and regionally obnoxious back on page 4. I am beginning to think my Texas provinciality is slipping. Are you NYers so self absorbed that you didn't notice?

[robyn]

From robyn:

Well - if you want a point of view from someone who lives outside NYC and who has spent a lot of time there. My most indelible impression was on 9/12 (my husband and I happened to be in NYC on 9/11 - 9/10 was our anniversary) - sitting in a restaurant with an outside patio on the upper West Side for lunch. And with the WTC smoldering in the background - many of the people at that restaurant were saying that we deserved it - we had it coming to us. Most of the others simply considered it to be a massive inconvenience - like a bad snowstorm.

As far as I'm concerned, you were hanging out with some weird people. I haven't known any New Yorkers who expressed those attitudes to me. Ever. Maybe a little "the chickens are coming home to roost," but none of the rest of it. I don't know anyone in New York who thinks we deserved it, and I certainly didn't know anyone who thought the atrocities were just an inconvenience.

I heartily recommend that you and other New Yorkers take the time to see (and listen to) the rest of the country

Isn't that what I said?

Very well, perhaps we should get back to food now? How are your opinions about food different from those of a similarly situated New Yorker?

I won't go into any more details. IMO - it's a real red state/blue state thing.

As far as food is concerned - I can point out a couple of things. First and foremost - people from New York are willing to acccept really bad service/attitude in return for being in trendy places. Wouldn't care so much if this only poisoned places in New York (because I'm not there that often). But it also poisons a lot of otherwise good places in Florida that New Yorkers tend to frequent. I'm sure you know the routine (yes you had an 8 pm reservation but we just seated 15 people without reservations who are trendier than you are so you'll have to wait an hour). Or expensive places where the servers have spent more time learning how to get a good tan than learning how to be good servers.

And then there is the dual level of food problem. The kind that Ruth Reichl pointed out in her first review of Le Cirque 2000 many years ago (when you're a nobody - there are no chunks of lobster in the lobster risotto - but you get a whole lobster's worth of chunks when you're a somebody). IOW - if you are a somebody you get this - but if you are a nobody you get that. To be sure - New York's not the only place you'll find these things (Paris comes to mind too) - and they are not universal - but they are a total turnoff when I run across them. Robyn

[FistFullaRoux]

I'll try to state the premise again. There is something inherent in message boards and email that does not happen with phone or face contact. Irony, inflection, emphasis, and some humor is lost in text. This is why there are smileis on this very page. Words seem harsher, being that we are sort of hardwired to think that the written word holds more power. A computer monitor is, for all intents and purposes, the written word. Internet or not.

The thing is, we get to make our statements without interruption, and without the sort of instant feedback/body language/intangible thing going on, the statements made can get out of hand. It's like having an open microphone, the audience has to sit perfectly still and quiet in the dark, and you can speak your mind. Then the first person to get up to the mic says what they think, while the rest sit on their hands, or leave.

When you have some sort of clue from another person or group of people when making a statement face to face or real-time interactively, you can adjust what you are saying. You can modify the points, use more examples, or realize that you just pissed someone off. Which is why message boards hae a tendency to stagger around, not flow like conversation does.

Again, it's not opinions that bother me so much. It's attitude and perception. Sometimes people can have a controversial opinon. That's fine. But if you are going to start a contoversy, (like I did ), be willing to talk about it, and stand by your opinion. Don't say the all xxxx are xxxx and never visit the subject again. It makes it seem like "The Master Has Spoken" and the subject is closed.

Edited January 14, 2004 by FistFullaRoux (log)

[jhlurie]

i don't know that many people think it's getting worse.  i do think that these things are cyclical, and i'm pretty sure a few share the opinion that we're in a pretty annoying part of the cycle right now.  and i suppose that's why this thread is here.  dismissing it does nothing.  bringing it out into the open might do something.

Dismissing it is certainly not necessary tommy. Dealing with the part of it which is in our own hands (that is... our own behavior) is. And dealing with it as the problem as it really is--a larger societal problem about how people are raised, how they value or don't value their fellow man and how those values impact communication skills--in my opinion, is better than marginalizing it as some sweeping tide of local misbehavior.

Getting this back to food (we all remember food right? ), I think this is just a case that food is something that people feel especially passionate about. But its not the food, or the food website, which is causing the behavior. It's genetics, it's our upbringing, our television, our bad diets. Okay... so maybe it IS the food.

FistFullaRoux - To cap this off in terms of your last post... I think its understood by many here that on-line forums can act as a magnifying glass to highlight those things that are the worst part of our nature. But perhaps we are coming to a fundemental divide in terms of how to deal with it. From an admin standpoint, we try and remind people to be careful, to use smileys, to follow the golden rule, etc. To me though, I still don't see a smoking gun to prove that the problem is rampant, uncontrollable or even in a growth pattern here. We have a group of users than, by and large, we are proud of here. When specific misconduct rears its ugly head, that's dealt with. And we've got various ways for people to report abuses, and mechanisms to try and clear up misunderstanding. When it doesn't, I think we like to give people the benefit of the doubt. If the point here is simply to say "be careful, be nice" I can applaud that. But there seems to also be some implication that something isn't being done that should be, without a constructive example of what that might be. Again, I can't help but return to the reality that its not within our ability to change people's behaviors of a lifetime in this environment--all we can do is enforce against violations of the User Agreement and other egregious misconduct.

Edited January 14, 2004 by jhlurie (log)

[tommy]

But there seems to also be some implication that something isn't being done that should be, without a constructive example of what that might be. Again, I can't help but return to the reality that its not within our ability to change people's behaviors of a lifetime in this environment--all we can do is enforce against violations of the User Agreement and other egregious misconduct.

jon, you seem to think that people are blaming egullet, or the people who are on the admin side. i don't think that's the case. to me, many posts in this thread have been an observation of a general attitude on the site.

[Pan]

from robyn:

As far as food is concerned - I can point out a couple of things. First and foremost - people from New York are willing to acccept really bad service/attitude in return for being in trendy places.

It's only a particular subset of New Yorkers who are willing to put up with that. I'm not and never have been.

Wouldn't care so much if this only poisoned places in New York (because I'm not there that often). But it also poisons a lot of otherwise good places in Florida that New Yorkers tend to frequent. I'm sure you know the routine (yes you had an 8 pm reservation but we just seated 15 people without reservations who are trendier than you are so you'll have to wait an hour). Or expensive places where the servers have spent more time learning how to get a good tan than learning how to be good servers.

Such places aren't worth going to, wherever they are. Why blame New Yorkers for them? It's the responsibility of the ownership and managers. I really have to wonder, based on this post and your last post about the reaction you say you experienced to the 9/11/01 atrocities in New York, whether you don't have some funny stereotypical attitudes about New Yorkers that may be partly responsible for your perception of them.

And then there is the dual level of food problem. The kind that Ruth Reichl pointed out in her first review of Le Cirque 2000 many years ago (when you're a nobody - there are no chunks of lobster in the lobster risotto - but you get a whole lobster's worth of chunks when you're a somebody). IOW - if you are a somebody you get this - but if you are a nobody you get that. To be sure - New York's not the only place you'll find these things (Paris comes to mind too) - and they are not universal - but they are a total turnoff when I run across them.

It seems like I've had that experience all three times I've eaten at restaurants awarded 4 stars by different New York Times critics, though at least the third time, the service was pretty good. I don't have such trouble at good restaurants that aren't supposedly 4-star, however, or if I do, quite rarely.

However, I've never had that experience in Paris, so far. I can remember one time when a restaurant tried to charge me for wine when I hadn't had any (which is a simple game of "cheat the tourist," and it didn't work), but that's it.

Edited January 14, 2004 by Pan (log)

[ExtraMSG]

As long as names aren't being called and people not being flamed -- as long as real arguments are being made and evidence shown -- I think people should be willing to accept challenges.  Members shouldn't expect to be made fun of, but they also shouldn't expect to have to walk on eggshells for those that don't like to be challenged.

This is a very salient point you make here. One does not have to agree with another person to respect that person. I would even go so far as to suggest that one does not have to respect another person's opinion to respect that person.

You and I, for example, have taken opposing positions and gone around the tree on a number of subjects. And yet, at the end of the day, it was all a good time. I think we came away from it appreciating our counterpart's position a little better, appreciating our counterpart a little better and liking each other a little more. I certainly know that, based on our debates, I tend to check out your posts to see if something interesting is going on.

That is only good, in my opinion.

I respect people who disagree with me but make a case for it way more than I respect people who agree with me but have no reason.

[ExtraMSG]

I'll try to state the premise again. There is something inherent in message boards and email that does not happen with phone or face contact. Irony, inflection, emphasis, and some humor is lost in text. This is why there are smileis on this very page. Words seem harsher, being that we are sort of hardwired to think that the written word holds more power. A computer monitor is, for all intents and purposes, the written word. Internet or not.

The reader bears a lot of responsibility here as well. It's important to read charitably. When given a passage that doesn't quite make sense, or seemingly missing a step in the logic, the charitable reader will fill in the blanks with the logical step as he reads, not look for every little avenue to one-up and embarrass the author. I make this mistake as often as anyone, but I do try to add qualifications such as "if you mean" or "if you are implying" which can help mitigate such assumptions. The point should not to be to transform the arguments and beliefs of others into straw men, but to have an informative discussion that serves everyone.

Though I reserve the right to be a sarcastic prick once in a while (yes, only once in a while). But as I giveth, so I should taketh.

What was the question?

[Richard Kilgore]

Robyn -- I am not sure how it is helpful, in the context of a discussion of snobbish food attitudes, to paint New Yorkers broadly as crass, insensitive fools.

We all have our priorities, preferences, limits and provincial leanings no matter where we are (witness Fifi, who I have warned before to stay away from that valve). Treating others with respect while disagreeing is almost always a plus.

[beans]

Robyn -- I am not sure how it is helpful, in the context of a discussion of snobbish food attitudes, to paint New Yorkers broadly as crass, insensitive fools.

We all have our priorities, preferences, limits and provincial leanings no matter where we are (witness Fifi, who I have warned before to stay away from that valve). Treating others with respect while disagreeing is almost always a plus.

I agree. Especially when she threw in something as horrific as 9/11.

Okay, so this is the nagging question, I even brought up at work: Why is more being attributed to a thread, posting and/or message board than is written? In Heather's case, did anyone say that someone is feeding their family out of a dumpster? (Her reference point of the Walmart thread).

Where is this "right" or "wrong" thing going on? And why is it right or wrong??????

See, I don't even know because I didn't read it because it didn't interest me!

I would have to wonder because of the proactive nature of the moderators on this forum.

All IMHO, but why take eG that seriously?

[GG Mora]

All IMHO, but why take eG that seriously?

That right there's the big question. This thread is cracking me up.

[bilrus]

I'll try to state the premise again. There is something inherent in message boards and email that does not happen with phone or face contact. Irony, inflection, emphasis, and some humor is lost in text. This is why there are smileis on this very page. Words seem harsher, being that we are sort of hardwired to think that the written word holds more power. A computer monitor is, for all intents and purposes, the written word. Internet or not.

The thing is, we get to make our statements without interruption, and without the sort of instant feedback/body language/intangible thing going on, the statements made can get out of hand. It's like having an open microphone, the audience has to sit perfectly still and quiet in the dark, and you can speak your mind. Then the first person to get up to the mic says what they think, while the rest sit on their hands, or leave.

When you have some sort of clue from another person or group of people when making a statement face to face or real-time interactively, you can adjust what you are saying. You can modify the points, use more examples, or realize that you just pissed someone off. Which is why message boards hae a tendency to stagger around, not flow like conversation does.

Again, it's not opinions that bother me so much. It's attitude and perception. Sometimes people can have a controversial opinon. That's fine. But if you are going to start a contoversy, (like I did ), be willing to talk about it, and stand by your opinion. Don't say the all xxxx are xxxx and never visit the subject again. It makes it seem like "The Master Has Spoken" and the subject is closed.

In restating the problem the way you did, I wonder if the problem isn't an eGullet problem, but a problem inherent in this type of forum.

The one thing I will say for eGullet is that I appreciate the fact that the back and forth and argument and off-topic discussions are tolerated. That is what has kept me coming back for almost a year.

[nessa]

I eat cheez-its.  I cool, right?

Incredibly.

Ahem. I find a mix of the tabasco and the white cheddar cheeze-its to be a particularly fine snack.

[kellycolorado]

Heather, this is exactly what I thought of when I saw this thread!

hlshorter said:

It's the same attitude I see on parenting lists from those who breastfeed to those who have decided to use formula for whatever reasons.

This "snobbery" topic comes up all the time on the parenting boards and it never gets resolved. With both I think that sometimes passionate people come across as sounding superior. Of course the minority ARE condescending, but that is definitely a minority IMHO.

It seems (to me) that when someone says a food is "better" or they find another food "lower quality", some people take that as a personal affront on their eating decisions and are personally offended.

I guess I don't totally understand that reaction because I don't take things personally. Even if someone sound holier-than-thou. I just figure they need to work on their manners or add some smilies. I go more by whether what they are saying has merit or is just blowing hot air and try to learn from as many posts as possible.

does that make sense? wait, don't answer that.

[kellycolorado]

Now, if they said "Kelly, you really need to get some taste when it comes to xyz", THAT I would take personally.