The Ducasse method of cooking steak

[Wilfrid]

I was once told the following, but do not know if it's true. Generally speaking, about the same amount of liquid leaches out of meat however it is cooked. fast searing does not seal in juices, as is commonly believed - the caramelization of the surface, and resulting promotion of flavor-enhancing chemical reactions, kids people into thinking that the meat is juicier.

Sense or nonsense?

[tommy]

I was once told the following, but do not know if it's true.  Generally speaking, about the same amount of liquid leaches out of meat however it is cooked.  fast searing does not seal in juices, as is commonly believed - the caramelization of the surface, and resulting promotion of flavor-enhancing chemical reactions, kids people into thinking that the meat is juicier.

Sense or nonsense?

surely poking holes in it aids in the release of juice. perhaps i can test this theory on you tomorrow night. i'll bring a skewer.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Fat Guy - Your steak article for Hamptons magazine was excellent. I never saw it in the magazine, maybe because I don't think of them as having good food articles . But that's the kind of all encompassing food writing that we need more of.

I think the no piercing rule is overrated. Yes you lose some juice, but that can't be the difference between a juicy steak and a dry one or else you started with less then top quality to begin with.

[g.johnson]

I was once told the following, but do not know if it's true.  Generally speaking, about the same amount of liquid leaches out of meat however it is cooked.  fast searing does not seal in juices, as is commonly believed - the caramelization of the surface, and resulting promotion of flavor-enhancing chemical reactions, kids people into thinking that the meat is juicier.

Sense or nonsense?

This was discussed on the Cooking Myths thread.

Russ Parsons had this to say

For example, the oft-quoted examle of searing sealing in juices. Technically, of course, that is incorrect. Anyone can see it. But if you rephrase it slightly, it becomes correct--and more to the point for a cook. A well-seared piece of meat will be moister. That's because most of the moisture when we eat something comes not from the thing being eaten but from ourselves. It's saliva. And what generates saliva? Things that look and smell delicious. And how do you make meat ... you get the picture.

If this is true, then piercing the meat might actually help since the released juices will add to that tasty carcinogenic caramelization. But, to repeat myself, I can’t see it making a big difference.

[ngatti]

Coupla questions FG.

Does 'Gahog and Gachog' = 'Gachot and Gachot'?

and re Cote de Bouef. I had always thought that a Cote de Boeuf was the first one or two cuts from the rib end of a sirloin strip, with the bones frenched out .

Not really a rib chop (NAMP 109 frenched and cut into chops), but rather the first 1 or 2 cuts off the bone in Sirloin Strip (NAMP 180) that include what I call the floating ribs, just before the feather bones (not so feathery on a piece of beef). This piece (or 2) is then frenched and trimmed. Looks a lot like a cut from the 109 Rib but there are only 2 - 4 portions per cow, and the bones are decidedly thinner.

I know people will try to cheat with the first 2 cuts from a prime rib (109), but the bones are thicker and I never thought that this cheat was a true Cote de Boeuf.

But what the fuck do I know

Nick

[Fat Guy]

Plotnicki: Thanks. And you don't have to change your opinion, because Hamptons no longer has good food articles! Nobody read the ones I wrote every week last summer so I wasn't invited back to do the column.

Nick: So that's why they didn't return my phone calls! As for the côte de boeuf, I know less than nothing about French butchering and that's probably the case with most New York chefs. It's certainly possible that there's a technical definition of the cut that doesn't square with what's being passed off as côte de boeuf here. But every chef I spoke to said it was just a super-thick rib steak. Liebrandt even told me what NAMP number he uses but I don't think my system of notetaking is such that I still have it. I know there are subtleties to the rib cuts anyway -- like what comes from ribs 5-7 (what Ubaldi calls rib steaks) and what comes from 8-12 (Ubaldi say club steak or prime rib) or whatever -- but that was a level of detail not obtainable in the sort of general interest piece I was doing (believe me, the stuff I did for Hamptons was already off the charts in terms of technical detail by the magazine's standards). As for what côte de boeuf means in New York restaurants, if you look on the Les Halles menu, for example, you'll see:

"Côte de Boeuf $52.00

(Prime rib for two)"

From the Le Marais menu.

"Côte de Boeuf

(Prime rib for one) $35.00

(Prime rib for two) $51.50"

I don't even know how to read this chart but as I understand it côte just means rib in French.

In the French Laundry Cookbook, “Yabba Dabba Do” calls for:

"Côte de Boeuf

1 double-cut rib steak (about 2 to 2 1/2 pounds)"

Here's some other writer I've never heard of using the term no doubt the way a chef told him it was being used:

"Zinc’s broiler is one of the most spot-on corners of its kitchen. Try the côte de boeuf for two, a thick-cut, twenty-six-ounce hunk of tender, flavorful rib eye grilled to perfection and served with a cup of white-truffle béarnaise and a side of about as authentic pommes frites as you’ll find in this neck of the woods."

So you see the typical equation of rib steak = rib eye = prime rib = côte de boeuf, while each probably should mean something more specific.

[ngatti]

Thanks for the clarification, FG.

Re Cote de Boef vis a vis NYC chefs:

What the Fuck do they know.

Seriously though, rib can be problematic. Many people don't like the pieces from the chuck end (large clod of fat in the meat. especially in ribs graded prime).

Thanks for your nicely done piece and for the reply to my questions

Nick

[Steve Plotnicki]

Considering how everyone spends half of their time in the Hamptons eating, there is a dearth of articles on the local food scene. To sit on your deck in the middle of a hot July day and read about steakhouses in NYC is about as appealing as reading about Eskimos ice fishing. Considering all of the local farms and purveyors of local fish and other food products, there is zero written about the quality of the local food which is great. But there are no shortage of publications showing pictures of tycoons of industry and their model girlfriends at the polo matches. 'Tis a shame.

Nick - A Cote de Boeuf doesn't look like anything more than a thick rib steak to me. And I don't know of anywhere that serves it for less then two people. There are three approaches I've seen. The bone trimmed away and the steak sort of rounded to make it neat, the same sort of preperation but with the bone cut by a sawblade so it doesn't protrude from the ovel shape of the steak, or completely untrimmed with a huge bone sticking out. The best cote de boeuf I know, at Loulou in Cagnes-sur-Mer who gets their meat from Boucherie Marbeuf in Paris (the Lobel's of Paris?) serves the second preparation. But the best version I've had here is from Lobel's where I've asked them to cut me by hand a two bone thick rib chop that isn't trimmed at all and the bone not shortened. It's a hell of a piece of meat and the meat attached to the bone is almost a meal unto itself. You can easily serve 3-4 people with one of those as it must be well at least 4 inches thick.

[Ron Johnson]

I thought Cote meant slope or hillside in French? My pals in Ampuis told me so.

[Jinmyo]

Ron, cote de bouef does look like a hill.

[Fat Guy]

Doesn't it literally mean "side" or something along those lines? So it would be applicable to coasts of bodies of water as well as ribs of animals.

[Ron Johnson]

Slope of beef? Sure, why not.

[Kerouac1964]

FG -- I enjoyed your article! BTW - how long did it take for you to research that article? Did you have to pace your self? I would hate to think a reviewer could get burned out from too many similar meals !!

I will certainly be using the edge method next time I pan fry a steak or chop. the Boneless pork chops here are particulary rimmed with fat, so the technique should be well suited for them.

[Fat Guy]

Kerouac: When you're in a reviewing groove you dine out all the time and you notice trends, similarities, etc. So something like that steak piece is just a question of putting together what you already know and repackaging it. Selling multiple articles based on the same set of experiences is the only way to make money as a freelance writer. In terms of unique time expended on this piece, I probably spent two or three hours on the phone with chefs and an equal amount of time writing it. Then there's the editorial process. A day's work, all told, but spread out over different days. I think that one was an $800 piece. If I could work that efficiently all the time I'd make a very good living.

[Aix]

I thought Cote meant slope or hillside in French?  My pals in Ampuis told me so.

A quick FYI on French terms.

Cote (pronounced "cut") = quote (as in stocks, taxes etc.)

Côte ("coat") = Rib

= Slope along the side of a hill

= Coast

Côté ("Cotay") = Side

On this thread, we're interested in the "côte de boeuf".

[ngatti]

Nick - A Cote de Boeuf doesn't look like anything more than a thick rib steak to me. And I don't know of anywhere that serves it for less then two people. There are three approaches I've seen. The bone trimmed away and the steak sort of rounded to make it neat, the same sort of preperation but with the bone cut by a sawblade so it doesn't protrude from the ovel shape of the steak, or completely untrimmed with a huge bone sticking out. The best cote de boeuf I know, at Loulou in Cagnes-sur-Mer who gets their meat from Boucherie Marbeuf in Paris (the Lobel's of Paris?) serves the second preparation. But the best version I've had here is from Lobel's where I've asked them to cut me by hand a two bone thick rib chop that isn't trimmed at all and the bone not shortened. It's a hell of a piece of meat and the meat attached to the bone is almost a meal unto itself. You can easily serve 3-4 people with one of those as it must be well at least 4 inches thick.

Oh you're quite right, Steve. I used to butch them at the Four Seasons.

My question had to do with where the Cote specifically comes from on the cow. I called my guy at Wotiz meats and tried to explain. He seems to feel (as I do) that here in America, specifically NYC, that the cut has evolved over the last twenty years or so. It was my my position that the Cote de Boeuf comes from a very specific part of the animal, and that there are only two on each cow/steer (1 per side). This jibes with your Lobel's story, for the Cote contains the *two* (sometimes three), what I call, floating ribs. Too me it was properly, the very first cut from the rib end of a bone in Sirloin Strip (NAMP 179). Yes, it is indeed massive and was only served for two (finished with some glazed marrow on top and carved tableside).

However my meat guy said that the cut as commonly used today is cut from the rib, what you might call the 'prime rib' (NAMP 109). It seems much cheaper to me to do it this way. This cut, to me is, commonly refered to as a "Cowboy Steak" or a "Bone-in Rib Chop". It's tough to describe without pictures. or better yet, someday maybe I can butch and cook one for you guys . As with lanquages cuts of meat and cooking also change. It is a dynamic after all. I'm told that the Chef who can wield a competent butcher knife is fast diappearing.

Cheers

Nick

[Fat Guy]

Nick do you keep your back issues of Food Arts? If so there was a piece on CDB with a recipe from Keller and some coments from Lobel's in the back section awhile ago. If you have it around (or if anybody else does), fill us in please.

[Suzanne F]

Approximately how far back? I've got almost every issue back to July/August 1995.

[Fat Guy]

Oh, I'd say within the last year; two at the most. Though I could be imagining it all.

[Suzanne F]

I'll have a look.

[ngatti]

Nick do you keep your back issues of Food Arts? If so there was a piece on CDB with a recipe from Keller and some coments from Lobel's in the back section awhile ago. If you have it around (or if anybody else does), fill us in please.

Thanks FG and Suzanne. I have issues going back a couple of years. If you give me the ref I'll have a llook.

Nick