Can a foodie keep Kosher?

[Pan]

I guess I could just Google it...

[Gifted Gourmet]

Personally, the restrictions I have when cooking have made me a much better cook and more of a foodie.  I simply refuse to sacrifice the quality of my food at home even given my  restrictions. 

Can one make kosher equivalent versions of dishes that taste as good (though not EXACTlY)? Yes

Can someone who keeps strict Kashrut have food/wine/cooking as a hobby and be a foodie? Yes, there is a whole realm of food beyond shelfish and pork to be excited about.

I will have to admit, the laws of kashrut certainly will raise your level of awareness to a high "orange" level on Tom Ridge's scale ....

as to whether or not one can approximate a version of a dish using substitute ingredients, the answer is, sometimes ... pareve cheese is not particularly similar to the real thing ... and, with this caveat, it just isn't the same as the original, the classic dish ..

and while one who is kashrut observant can be a wine afficianado, the same answer obtains .. it is only the case here that it is more difficult and often even more expensive to find good kosher wines (but that is changing, I am given to understand by my more rabbinically-inclined friends!)

[Pumpkin Lover]

Just to add to the India-and-beef thing: it's already been mentioned, but religious other than the Hindu practice flourish in India, and eating beef is a-okay in non-Hindu communities as long as people are respectful of their neighbors.

R.W. Apple Jr. made a small mention of beef-eating Indians in this lovely article on South Indian cuisine in the NY Times. I also remember reading, in a Lonely Planet guidebook to India, that Goa, being a predominantly Christian city, is known for its various beef dishes (I think LP mentioned beef vindaloo).

[alacarte]

In Nigella Lawson's latest NY Times article, she makes an observation about cooking for weight-loss regimens, which sums up my thoughts on this thread to a T:

The real challenge was to produce food that you actually wanted to eat when you were painting, as it were, with a restricted palette.

I think this applies to any "restricted palette," whether that restriction is by religious mandate, Atkins rules, or anything else -- if you are allergic to shellfish or strawberries, you just don't "paint" with that particular color. The point is that one still can paint an artful and lovely picture.

Which is not to say that it's easy to eat well, or to be a "foodie" while adhering to kashrut. I think this thread has made abundantly clear that keeping kosher can be a challenge!

Nigella's article makes a similar point. "Anyone, I thought, could make food taste good without any dietary concerns getting in the way at the stove," she says, but quickly concedes that "the romance was short-lived." It took more work and thought than she had expected to make good and varied meals, but she did it. And those of us keeping kosher do it too.

[AzRaeL]

a Foodie but not a true Epicurean or Gourmet.

[Pan]

Those are labels. Please consider defining them for the purpose of this thread and explaining why you believe the statement you made.

I do think Epicureanism is different from the other two words, because it was originally associated with a philosophy that makes indulgence central to life, and in that sense, Epicureanism really does seem to me to violate fundamental religious tenets of various faiths. But I don't understand your points on the other two terms.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Which is precisely what I have maintained throughout this thread .. Nigella said it better and more publicly...

see my comment much earlier as to feeling as if I was Toulouse Lautrec painting with two colors ...

It is, indeed, difficult, but not impossible, of course, to make marvelously creative meals which are, at the same time, both kosher and "foodie-ish" .... have done it myself as a kosher caterer.

Most of what I am experiencing hit me yesterday when I was in my local upscale new Fresh Market here in Atlanta. I looked at all of the very chic and lovingly prepared "foods to go" which had been prepared to take home and complete the cooking ... crab cakes, meats, duck breasts, lamb legs ... and I remembered buying my Empire Thanksgiving turkey, taking it home and having to clean off numerous feathers which were still clinging to it ... and then reading labels on other items and discarding one after another .. limited kosher cheese choices next to full,luxurious, exciting new imported cheeses ... the list could go on and on ...

and that is yet another thread which I am unable to, or even desirous of, writing: why the kosher consumer often suffers from a lack of quality in many of the kosher items he/she buys when the tref item is of higher quality ... just having a rabbinical hechsher is not necessarily a guarantee of quality items.

The observations I am/have made here are simply due to my own personal frustrations ... but are closely tied to the question which opened this thread .. which echoes a belief I have held for many years ... bottom line for me? If I had greater strength of my convictions religiously, I would be more sanguine, more satisfied, possibly even less vocal!

[Msk]

Gifted, I completely agree with your Pareve cheese comments. Perhaps its fair to say, in my own home, I stay away from things that need it since I know there is very little possibility of replicating a quality dish that NEEDS both meat and cheese. Pareve cheese might as well be Shrimp in my home.

However, that does not mean I have to sacrifice my love of the sweet-tart-creamy combination of Buffalo wing sauce and blue cheese for example. I simply find other flavor transfer agents than chicken wings. (Potato latkes for example).

To me a foodie is someone passionate about food no matter what their diet is. Someone who strives to learn about and experience the most they can within their particular dietary restrictions (whether those are religious or healthminded in nature).

FG, thanks for the heads up. Fortunately my wife does not follow that particular law (or doesn't know of it and I'm not bringing it up )

As an aside, I will say that Morningstar brand non-meat products are pretty good approximations. The Big Grillers taste frightengly like a hamburger, or will do with a little seasoning when I need a sausage egg and cheese sandwich fix.

Msk

[Gifted Gourmet]

To me a foodie is someone passionate about food no matter what their diet is.  Someone who strives to learn about and experience the most they can within their particular dietary restrictions (whether those are religious or healthminded in nature).

Msk,

Thank you for confirming and validating a few of my comments on this topic ... maybe after doing this for some thirty-five years, I am simply "burned out" and watching the new plethora of great new ethnic foods and ready-made items increase, I am feeling somewhat "limited" ...

I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about being passionate about food .. in fact, my nom de plume at our website here is "Passionate Palate" ...

Don't even want to tell you about my gut-wrenching pain at Harrod's food halls in London recently .. although I actually did find something of a small kosher food hall at Selfridge's on Oxford Street ....

Then there is the marvelously exciting fact that at least now we have the Net and messageboards like eGullet to "sort out" and share those concerns with other like-minded, and even not so like-minded, individuals ...

This is a hell of a lot cheaper than therapy and can be accessed 24/7! Gee, technology supplanting Dr. Freud! Who woulda thunk it??

Edited January 8, 2004 by Gifted Gourmet (log)

[Rachel Perlow]

Just to be clear for those that might not realize, but parve cheese would be similar to vegan cheese, without dairy. This is different from kosher dairy cheese, which uses a vegetarian rennet rather than an animal based one.

[JFLinLA]

I was beginning to feel nervous that I had started this thread when I saw the tone it was taking earlier but, in the end, the folks on eG are here because we all feel passionately about food and, therefore, express our food opinions passionately. Someone else already said it better than I:

To me a foodie is someone passionate about food no matter what their diet is. Someone who strives to learn about and experience the most they can within their particular dietary restrictions (whether those are religious or healthminded in nature).

Amen and a good yontov to all.

Edited January 9, 2004 by JFLinLA (log)

[jackal10]

As an aside, I will say that Morningstar brand non-meat products are pretty good approximations. The Big Grillers taste frightengly like a hamburger, or will do with a little seasoning when I need a sausage egg and cheese sandwich fix.

Sorry, but according to some that is non-kosher (Hashek h'goy?), since some hold that imitation food has to be treated as the original, otherwise it might deceive people into thinking that the original can be eaten.

Thus imitation bacon can never be kosher.

[Jonathan Day]

This topic sent me looking for more information about kashruth, and I found the Orthodox Union site, http://www.ou.org. (By way of background, my mother's family is Jewish but mostly non-observant; my father's is Christian. So I was aware of kosher as a child, but it didn't enter much into our family dining).

The site's Kosher section conveys some rules that I hadn't previously encountered:

• According to US rabbis, the only poultry that may be consumed are chicken, turkey, duck and goose...so no quail, pheasant, ortolan, etc.
  
• fish scales must be visible to the consumer ... filleted or ground fish must have a skin tab with visible scales attached, unless the entire store is closely supervised. In any event, the knives and tables in an unsupervised fish store may have been touched by non-kosher ingredients.
  
• pans in which bread is baked might have been greased with non-kosher oils; margarines, coffee creamers, and foods containing natural or artificial flavours may have been in contact with non-kosher ingredients; all these things are therefore unacceptable from commercial providers unless prepared under supervision
  
• "Rabbinic law prohibits consumption of fish and meat together." Therefore, nothing like paella to be served, even if prepared only with chicken and scaled fish
  
• "It is Rabbinically prohibited to consume bread with dairy ingredients. Since bread is frequently eaten at all meals, the Rabbis were concerned that one might inadvertently eat dairy bread with a meat meal. There are two exceptions - if the bread is baked in an unusual shape or design indicating that it is dairy, or if the loaf is so small that it would be consumed at one meal." I guess this would apply to bread rolls.
  
• "According to [uS] government standards, any product labeled 'sherbet' or 'fruit sherbet' must contain milk." I wonder whether this applies to something labelled "sorbet".
  
• "A traveler bringing along frozen (T.V.) dinners where only non-kosher ovens are available for reheating, may use the ovens by covering the frozen package with two layers of aluminum foil. If a microwave will be utilized, then the food must also be double wrapped."
  

The big surprises for me were the prohibition against eating meat and fish together, though this is rare, and against eating bread with dairy ingredients, even at a dairy meal.

To focus on the topic of this thread, I guess the ability to maintain kashruth and also retain your foodie licence depends just how observant you want to be, and also whether you want to eat at restaurants. At home, I can imagine keeping the kosher rules, though this would be expensive and time consuming, and eating reasonably well. For me, eating in restaurants is important simply "I don't know what I don't know" about food and cooking, and I learn a lot from dining at good restaurants. I'm not sure how easy it would be to do this and maintain a strictly kosher regime.

[Jonathan Day]

More on kosher living and the rules of kashruth here.

[Ellen Shapiro]

To those of us who grew up in Conservative Jewish families (please note that Conservative Judaism is the largest denomination within American Judaism), most of the above rules would not be considered relevant.

In any religion, the absolutist and fundamentalist arguments and approaches have the most internal consistency and often appear to outsiders as the most worthy of respect. But my observance of Judaism has always been about honoring and continuing the traditions of my people and my religion while also being fully engaged in ecumenical society. To do that requires I believe some adaptation and evolution of the Biblical and Talmudic rules. This is basically where Conservative and Orthodox Judaism part company.

In any event, there are almost no foodie obstacles whatsoever to a Conservative Jew who wants to follow moderate Conservative Jewish kashruth practices. There are some things and combinations that can't be eaten, and that's it. And most everybody, even foodies, have things and combinations they won't eat. For those who want to follow the types of rules as above, there are greater obstacles to being a foodie. They can still be foodies but they will start with significant inherent disadvantages, like the Jamaican bobsled team.

I see I may be going agains the direction I was trying to give above, so let me clarify that I'm mostly trying to say the OU is defining one denomination's rules for kashruth, and not the largest denomination's rules, which are much more flexible. So when it comes to talking about definitions of kashruth, I think it is relevant to keep that in mind.

[Gifted Gourmet]

But my observance of Judaism has always been about honoring and continuing the traditions of my people and my religion while also being fully engaged in ecumenical society. To do that requires I believe some adaptation and evolution of the Biblical and Talmudic rules. This is basically where Conservative and Orthodox Judaism part company.

I will most happily second that concept and belief, Ellen ...

Of late, I have come to the conclusion that Judaism can enhance and enrich my life to the extent that I am willing to allow it to do just that ...

merely restricting my options (in this case by observing the stringent rules of orthodox kashrut) does little more than offer me frustration and limits to my life as it exists today ...

so, chacun a son gout, and live life on your own terms, as they say ... for me, that has taken many years to comprehend fully ....

[bloviatrix]

"According to [uS] government standards, any product labeled 'sherbet' or 'fruit sherbet' must contain milk." I wonder whether this applies to something labelled "sorbet".

Sorbet is primarily a sugar syrup and fruit. Therefore, you can find brands that are parve - Sharon's Sorbet, Cyrk, one from Seattle (can't remember the brand).

Ben & Jerry's sorbet is Kof-K DE (dairy equipment) which means although the ingredients are parve, the equipment it was made on is also used make dairy products. I believe Haagen Daaz sorbet falls into the same category.

"Rabbinic law prohibits consumption of fish and meat together." Therefore, nothing like paella to be served, even if prepared only with chicken and scaled fish

Not only can dishes like pealla be served, but this also applies to the dishes. So, if I'm serving fish for the first course and meat for the second, one must use fresh plates and cutlery for the second course (although most would say that's obvious, you need to remember to change knives).

Edited January 11, 2004 by bloviatrix (log)

[wesza]

What Kosher is and what it was.

Very simple statement but it's something this thread has made me consider.

I had a grand Uncle Levy who opened on Broadway in Manhatten in excess of 100 Kosher Deli's for 4 different Kosher Deli Meat Suppliers with restrictive brand name convents for their individual stores. I think they were Hod Carmel, Morgan David, Hebrew National and one other. The stores ran from lower Manhatten upto the end of the Island. One every 5/6 Blocks.

All were considered Kosher, but at that time and place there was no organized Rabbi supervision.

In fact at the Kosher Catskill Resorts and Camps there never was any Rabbinical supevision until very recently.

The only Catering operation with Rabbis Supervision initally was the "Huntington Town House" that maintained completely seperated Kosher and Non Kosher Kitchens including the Warewashing, Carts and everything involving the Food.

All the Caters were very aware of the Kosher Requirements and required Rabbinical assistance only when operating Catering affairs in Hotels where everything required Kashering and supervision at all times.

Most Dairy and Meat Restaurants or Bakery's that considered themselves Kosher were observant of the regulations and always took the extra step to assure their customers of the complience. They would always welcome a informal inspection by any customers including Rabbis of their premises.

I belive that when the Ultra Orthradox such as the Chabad and others who wished to bring Glatt Kosher into the Community begreted the various Kosher Marks in addition to the OU that everyone was familar with and started the so called Rabbinical Supervision in all aspects of the Community.

Originally and i'm sure even today the standard of Kosher was up to each individual Jew to observe ethically and as long as this is the case it should be the standard we all answer to if servicing the Community.

When I was called in as a consultant at the Glatt Kosher Park Inn Hotel located at Rockaway in NY. It took me a while to realize that I wasn't upto date in everything Kosher when they were preparing Frozen Dessets Parfaits from a Parve Ice Cream , with Chocolate Sauce Nuts and Parve Whipped Topping. I was glad that I wasn't there about anything to do with religion, only expediting service. They also didn't have a Rabbi on the premises supervising, but the majority of their guests wore Black Hats with Side Burns. They even had a on premise Buther who Kashered the Chickens and personally Butchered and removed all veins from the Prime Ribs to make them Glatt. Even Eggs were all candled.

As far as i'm concerned they are very few things that would effect a Foodie from being Kosher at Home as there are now many ways to achive most dishes or simularities while keeping kosher. At leat to me after eating all around the world I still love Jewish Food the most.

Irwin

[Kenk]

I think you certainly can be Kosher and a foodie.

I enjoy cooking. My perspective is that there are very few foods that you cannot make that satisfy kashrut. Most Asian cooking easily can be made following kashrut the only problem is at times getting prepared ingredients that are approved.

I see no reason why you cannot make most Thai, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Malaysian, foods.

For Indian and Pakistani Food the biggest hurdle is don't use yogurt with meat. No big deal.

One of my big bugaboos is making desert that are designed to be made with butter of milk or cream that are made with some hideous replacement. For a meat meal make something else. Use butter, cream and milk in the things that need them.

Kosher Chinese food is very possible. There are some important items that are available now. There are many examples of Chinese Jewish cooking, some of them good. I had to buy eggroll wrappers in the kosher section of my Supermarket.

Looking at the many different countries where there has been Jewish cooking we can see how cosmopolitan it is.

Israeli

Russian

Iranian

German

Iraqi

Yemeni

Moroccan

Afghani

Ethiopian

Romanian

Yugoslav

French

Italian

Etc…

[Fat Guy]

One wonders, however, how Jewish cooking became so cosmopolitan. Presumably, it was because Jews around the world were tasting the local dishes and adopting (and adapting) them. How could any such thing occur under a strictly kosher regime? Certainly, Russian Jewish peasants weren't in a position to hire gentile chefs to cook in their homes, the only scenario I can think of where transfer of culinary knowledge could occur without violating the strict version of kashruth. My strong suspicion is that kashruth was observed in a much more lenient fashion by the Jews who created and handed down the Jewish culinary tradition than by the Jews who maintain strict kashruth now.

[Pan]

I think you certainly can be Kosher and a foodie.

I enjoy cooking. My perspective is that there are very few foods that you cannot make that satisfy kashrut. Most Asian cooking easily can be made following kashrut the only problem is at times getting prepared ingredients that are approved.

I see no reason why you cannot make most Thai, Vietnamese, Indonesian, Malaysian, foods.

I can see why many in not most Malaysian and Indonesian foods are impossible:

(1) Belacan (shrimp paste)

(2) Dried salted shrimps

[Jonathan Day]

In any religion, the absolutist and fundamentalist arguments and approaches have the most internal consistency and often appear to outsiders as the most worthy of respect. But my observance of Judaism has always been about honoring and continuing the traditions of my people and my religion while also being fully engaged in ecumenical society. To do that requires I believe some adaptation and evolution of the Biblical and Talmudic rules. This is basically where Conservative and Orthodox Judaism part company.

In any event, there are almost no foodie obstacles whatsoever to a Conservative Jew who wants to follow moderate Conservative Jewish kashruth practices. There are some things and combinations that can't be eaten, and that's it. And most everybody, even foodies, have things and combinations they won't eat. For those who want to follow the types of rules as above, there are greater obstacles to being a foodie. They can still be foodies but they will start with significant inherent disadvantages, like the Jamaican bobsled team.

I see I may be going agains the direction I was trying to give above, so let me clarify that I'm mostly trying to say the OU is defining one denomination's rules for kashruth, and not the largest denomination's rules, which are much more flexible. So when it comes to talking about definitions of kashruth, I think it is relevant to keep that in mind.

Ellen, that makes perfect sense. I've cited some very orthodox sources simply because they are written down and can be examined, not because I have any view either as to the worthiness of these practices or the extent of their actual use.

It is clear, reading through several of these web sources, that there are ongoing debates as highly observant Jews seek to extend their gastronomic horizons at the same time as they comply with kashruth. Click here for an interesting examination of what kinds of poultry can be eaten. It begins:

Over twenty years ago, the two of us came to Israel right after high school to study in yeshiva. As part of our studies, we decided to learn the practical laws of ritual slaughter and become certified shochtim (ritual meat-slaughterers). After we completed the nearly year-long course of study, a friend asked is we could slaughter pheasants for her. Not yet very experienced, we started with the basic question: Is pheasant indeed a kosher bird? We began to investigate.

[afoodnut]

One wonders, however, how Jewish cooking became so cosmopolitan. Presumably, it was because Jews around the world were tasting the local dishes and adopting (and adapting) them. How could any such thing occur under a strictly kosher regime? Certainly, Russian Jewish peasants weren't in a position to hire gentile chefs to cook in their homes, the only scenario I can think of where transfer of culinary knowledge could occur without violating the strict version of kashruth. My strong suspicion is that kashruth was observed in a much more lenient fashion by the Jews who created and handed down the Jewish culinary tradition than by the Jews who maintain strict kashruth now.

Perhaps the explanation is that Jews used the local ingredients available. They weren't necessarily imitating or trying to create the dishes that the gentiles were eating, rather they were creating their own (kosher) style of food from ingredients available. So we have such dishes as Italian caponata ebraica (hebrew style caponata) and Carciofi alla Giudia (Jewish style artichokes); cuban black beans as Cuban Jews prepared them, cuisine of the Baghdad Jews in Calcutta; (maybe even eating bagels and lox was a contribution of Jews to NYC generations ago, developing a cuisine that was doable using ingredients they could get, not an attempt to imitate what others around them were eating.)

[Msk]

As an aside, I will say that Morningstar brand non-meat products are pretty good approximations.  The Big Grillers taste frightengly like a hamburger, or will do with a  little seasoning when I need a sausage egg and cheese sandwich fix.

Sorry, but according to some that is non-kosher (Hashek h'goy?), since some hold that imitation food has to be treated as the original, otherwise it might deceive people into thinking that the original can be eaten.

Thus imitation bacon can never be kosher.

True, but for many it is still an option. I offered this as a suggestion for people who follow a similar level of Kashrut as I do.

That is a very interesting rule seeing that I often purchase "Beef Fry" at our Glatt Kosher butcher which is certainly a Beef version of bacon.

So imitation bacon is an option (just not for consumption with cheese in this case), perhaps the nuance of the law is crossing milk/meat categories.

Jewish law is not my strength, the level of Kashrut I follow is dictated by my wife's needs.

Msk

[Busboy]

A relevant article from today's Washington Post.

Still, the kosher life has its challenges. Gourmet cooking is one of them, says Laurie Moskowitz, a political consultant who lives in Northwest Washington with her husband, their toddler, and a baby on the way.

"I try to put together menus that are tasty and elegant, but sometimes it's hard to make substitutions," she says. "Like for sauces, can you use soy milk? That's under debate."