Can a foodie keep Kosher?

[Fat Guy]

I guess we have a couple of moving targets here:

1) The definition of kosher. Clearly, there's a range here. The strict/orthodox definition would include not eating in any mainstream restaurants, keeping a strict four-sets-of-dishes kosher kitchen at home, and never ever cheating. Other definitions would range from not eating any forbidden ingredients but still going to mainstream restaurants, to just not eating selected forbidden ingredients (like just not eating pork, which is a fairly common symbolic gesture among conservative and reform Jews).

2) The definition of foodie. I'm not exactly how to define it for the purposes of this discussion. I suppose it's possible to be a foodie in spirit even if all you eat is potatoes: you'll look for the best potatoes, you'll maybe grow your own potatoes, you'll get all the cookbooks and post on eGullet about how to make interesting potato recipes, etc. At the same time, I do think there's an exposure element to foodie-ness. It's hard to be a foodie in a vacuum. Possible perhaps, but hard. It's a community thing, and the community of those who keep kosher doesn't particularly encourage this aspect of things. So I think if you are a strict-kosher foodie, you're at the very least an iconoclast.

[Anna N]

2) The definition of foodie. I'm not exactly how to define it for the purposes of this discussion. I suppose it's possible to be a foodie in spirit ....

That would be me! (No I don't keep kosher!) but I don't "do" the Michelin restaurants either so I had doubts about my foodieness but I'm there in spirit with all of you.

[alacarte]

Still thinking about the article. I've reread it three times now, and I'm confused. Am I reading it right -- at the end of the article, he says that he stopped keeping kosher one year ago?

[WHT]

but you miss out on yummy stuff like Bacon and Shrimp :)

I don't feel I'm missing it. You can't miss something you've never had in the first place.

Great point. Reminds me of an old joke. ...sure beats ham!

[bloviatrix]

I guess we have a couple of moving targets here:

1) The definition of kosher. Clearly, there's a range here. The strict/orthodox definition would include not eating in any mainstream restaurants.....

We call it flexi-dox.

Seriously, I am what would be called modern orthodox. I don't cover my hair, I wear pants. And I will eat out. I am extremely machmir, strict, at home. But I've made certain choices regarding food based on up-bringing (the community standard has gotten stricter over the years) and because of professional need. I have many friends who won't eat out. Blovie will only do so if we're travelling and there are no kosher restaurants to dine in.

It's a community thing, and the community of those who keep kosher doesn't particularly encourage this aspect of things. So I think if you are a strict-kosher foodie, you're at the very least an iconoclast.

You don't know the people I do. There are a lot of people like me. We spend hours on end talking about food,dining, and wine/scotch. I am not unique in my interests -- and if I'm an iconoclast, it's not because of my interest in food.

Edited January 6, 2004 by bloviatrix (log)

[Msk]

Bloviatrix,

You beat me too it. I would echo your sentiments about food interest not being iconoclastic. Kashrut and enjoying food do not need to be mutually exclusive. They Orthodox people I know do not consider them to be. Even those who are a bit more strict than what Bloviatrix refers to as "Modern Orthodox."

Saying pursuit of Foodie-dom is iconoclastic would mean the spirit of Kosher dietary law was deprivation of some sort. That seems almost counter-cultural to me.

Msk

[Rachel Perlow]

I'm constantly adapting recipes to fit the Kosher kitchen.  And one of the reasons I've searched out other cuisines is that some are more accomodating to my dietary restrictions.

Just a very brief comment on making various adaptations kosher for one's use at home, I have spent a great deal of time doing just that .. with much success but also with some devastating failures ...

Just one simple case in point? Rachel Perlowe's glorious, multilayered, multihued festive Jello mold .. if I had to rely on using kosher gelatin, I can predict, with some degree of assurance, that it would be disastrous ... I ought to know whereof I speak, it happened to me more than once!

Why not? I've made kosher gelatin (I ran the Hillel kitchen during my time at the University of Delaware) and it seems to set up OK. Is kosher jello fleishig? And because I make alternating creamy and clear layers, the creamy layer having the addition of yogurt or sour cream, that would make it not kosher? If so, I don't think the use of non-dairy coffee whitener would be inappropriate. The sweet taste that Gifted Gourmet sites as a negative for use in vicchyssoise wouldn't be a problem in a gelatin mold.

Still thinking about the article. I've reread it three times now, and I'm confused. Am I reading it right -- at the end of the article, he says that he stopped keeping kosher one year ago?

That's what it sounded like to me too. So then, it seems his answer to the the answer to the title question would be no I guess.

[Rachel Perlow]

From www.ecolivingcenter.com:

Posted by Y.Monk on August 13, 2003 at 04:08:30:

In Reply to: Re: Kosher Gelatin...is it vegetarian? posted by Holly on June 16, 2003 at 11:53:05:

Gelatin derived from Kosher hides is not considerd fleshig according to R Moshe Feinstein and R Ahron Kotler due to their opinion that hides themselves are not fleishig (see responsa 39 y.d) as long as they have been fully fleshed

Now this I've heard of (in relation to some pig based medical products) but totally don't get. That being that something derived from an animal, but that has been so processed as to be completely removed from being either non-kosher or meat based. Excuse me, but it came from the slaughter of an animal, from the hide no less, but is not considered meat?

[alacarte]

Was it possible that it was fish-based gelatin? I've seen that used from time to time, apparently it's made from fish bones.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Still thinking about the article. I've reread it three times now, and I'm confused. Am I reading it right -- at the end of the article, he says that he stopped keeping kosher one year ago?

That was my take on it as well ...

Possibly why he could stand back and look at it in such a humorous way ...

Maybe if I could just do the same now ....

[bloviatrix]

When I make vicchyssoise, I have to substitute Rich's Coffee Rich for the cream .. and that has neither the taste nor the texture I crave ... actually, it is way too sweet in this savoury preparation.

Stay away from the Coffee Rich. That stuff is evil!! Plus, it's full of chemicals. Use soy milk - it much more neutral tasting. Or, make it with a vegetable stock and use cream.

[Gifted Gourmet]

From www.ecolivingcenter.com:

Posted by Y.Monk on August 13, 2003 at 04:08:30:

In Reply to: Re: Kosher Gelatin...is it vegetarian? posted by Holly on June 16, 2003 at 11:53:05:

Gelatin derived from Kosher hides is not considerd fleshig according to R Moshe Feinstein and R Ahron Kotler due to their opinion that hides themselves are not fleishig (see responsa 39 y.d) as long as they have been fully fleshed

Now this I've heard of (in relation to some pig based medical products) but totally don't get. That being that something derived from an animal, but that has been so processed as to be completely removed from being either non-kosher or meat based. Excuse me, but it came from the slaughter of an animal, from the hide no less, but is not considered meat?

It is my understanding that gelatin, no matter how far removed from the animal itself, and processed in such a way as to render it totally unlike the original, is still fleishig... and then, naturally, I would not use dairy with it .. only pareve ...

well and good .. most kosher gelatin is vegetable in nature .. and, now with the widespread use of carageenan as a gelatin substitute, things are somewhat improved ...

but, in the past, it has never ceased to amaze me as mold after mold collapsed unceremoniously on my serving platters into a puddle ...

so I gave up trying the gelatin food creations ... perhaps it is much better now ... and I noticed that on a recent trip to Jerusalem, the desserts at Hotel Ramat Rahel were firm and not reduced to a puddle on the plates ... maybe there is hope yet!!

have been holding on to a recipe for brandy alexander pie for some 20 years waiting for a superb kosher gelatin product...

[AzRaeL]

so I gave up trying the gelatin food creations ... perhaps it is much better now ... and I noticed that on a recent trip to Jerusalem, the desserts at Hotel Ramat Rahel were firm and not reduced to a puddle on the plates ... maybe there is hope yet!!

use Agar

[Gifted Gourmet]

so I gave up trying the gelatin food creations ... perhaps it is much better now ... and I noticed that on a recent trip to Jerusalem, the desserts at Hotel Ramat Rahel were firm and not reduced to a puddle on the plates ... maybe there is hope yet!!

use Agar

I do know about the use of agar as well as carageenan and now a kosher gelatin called "Emes Kosher-Jel" ... which I have yet to attempt ...

I have had such dismal luck in the past with most kosher gelatins that it was simply easier to "go without" ...

Everyday, there are newer, better, more improved, kosher items which did not exist heretofore ... and I can see it in its historical pespective even .. today, there are such miracles as Kosher l'Pesach potato chips, and various cereals which are new as well .. even the dry-as-dust Passover cake mixes have been "up-graded" ... and no frequent flyer miles required!

Best memory of all? Ersatz Pesachdik "noodles" many years ago ... only problem with them was that upon entering the boiling soup, they completely disintegrated!

[Gifted Gourmet]

Stay away from the Coffee Rich.  That stuff is evil!!  Plus, it's full of chemicals.  Use soy milk - it much more neutral tasting.  Or, make it with a vegetable stock and use cream.

and the only thing which is even more horrendous? "Coffee Whitener" on Passover ...

I still have frozen containers of this from years ago and no courage to use them ... maybe, it is no desire to use them ..... time to toss them!!

[Bux]

To tie this rant to food, I have to say that I think food can be too central to one's basic needs and happiness for it to be the place to start one's religion.

I'm not a religious individual, but I think this statement is a little bizarre.

It's the exactly the centrality of food to one's basic needs and happiness that makes food an important part of religious belief, and I believe that there are few major religions that don't include food at some significant level as part of its practice -- from Jewish/Muslim dietary laws to Catholic feast days (not to mention transubstantiation and consuming the Host) to Buddhist vegetarianism.

We weere talking about children whose tastes were already developed and whose beliefs didn't require then to abide by the dietary restrictions abruptly imposed on them. I did not believe they would be further drawn into the religion or into a more conservative or orthadox form of a religion by imposing dietary restrictions unless they were ready to accept such a restriction based on belief.

I'm sorry if my post sounded as a more universal statement than it was meant to be, but I don't think it's bizarre to offer an opinion that belief should almost always follow the practice of ritual. Perhaps it's just that I would suspect the beliefs of somone drawn to a religion by the lure of its rituals and respect the practices of someone who was moved by his deep beliefs.

[Bux]

When I make vicchyssoise, I have to substitute Rich's Coffee Rich for the cream .. and that has neither the taste nor the texture I crave ... actually, it is way too sweet in this savoury preparation.

Can you really say you have to make that particular substitution? I would have no trouble saying you're not making Vichyssoise anyway. I would suggest that the substitution of such a product for cream alters the recipe in such a way as to make it unvichyssoise as the original recipe is unkosher. A mild mushroom broth might be better substituted for the chicken broth and the dish could be served in a parve or dairy meal. Any number of vegetables or beans could be added to flavor the cream soup, but no one has to make such a soup with "Coffee Rich." Certainly you're free to choose to do so if it pleases you, but it doesn't, so why make such a soup when there are so many others to choose? If I were invited to dinner and told I had a choice of chicken broth with noodles or potatoes or "vicyssoise with "Coffee Rich," I'd choose the plain broth. With the memory of incredible homemade chicken soups alone, I'd say one could be a foodie and keep kosher

In fact, if anyone could justify saying a person who "gave up" lobster, shrimp, scallops, ham and catfish couldn't be a foodie, I'd say that anyone who didn't love tripe couldn't be a foodie. We all have somethings we won't eat, be it bugs, slugs, eyeballs or monkey brains, that another person cherishes.

[afoodnut]

I thought the article showed that he doesn't understand or respect the spirituality and sensuality bound up in food.

I guess I'm baffled that a purported foodie would even think of using fake crab in paella and then complain about the results. (Crab? Needed in paella?) After all, he could make a perfectly wonderful Spanish arroz con pollo (chicken with rice) with saffron and have a delicious meal. Why focus on what you can't have? Why worry about ersatz foods like Better than Butter? There's butter, there's olive oil, there's schmaltz, there's mayonnaise, there's cream cheese; All kosher, you just have to use them in the right time and place. There's a world of food out there...

He raves on about the foods he cooked in the past.

In the summer before I left for college, my father, who had learned how to cook in the intervening years, taught me how to make chili, chicken cacciatore and a couple of other staples. ...

From an Indian cook, I learned to make a sauce out of puréed onions, garlic and ginger. From an Italian chef, I learned how to roast garlic. A cook at a vegetarian restaurant showed me the proper way to cook brown rice.

Food became my religion. When my children were babies, they ate puréed pad Thai. Instead of Gerber's rice and lamb, they had biryani rice with chunks of lamb I cooked myself. So when I met Rique and agreed to keep kosher, few people were more prepared than I to accept the idea that the profane act of eating could be made sacred.

Every one of the foods he talks about in these paragraphs can be kosher. Chili? No problem. Chicken cacciatore? No problem. Roast garlic? Mangia. Sauce of pureed onions, garlic, ginger? Fine. Biryani rice with chunks of lamb? Kosher.

Disclosure:

I grew up in what was a not very unusual arrangement in NYC in the '50's. My parents kept a kosher home, but were not kosher outside. (My grandparents were all strictly kosher, and my parents would never have a home where their parents couldn't eat or be comfortable, *and* they wanted us, their children, to understand, know and respect what kashruth was all about.) We ate and enjoyed non kosher food in restaurants and other people's homes.

I am not kosher, and never have been, but my reasons for not keeping kosher have nothing to do with a sense that I'd not be able to pursue an intense passion for food, cooking, and eating.

[Pan]

Decent people of all faiths are innately decent .... matters not so much what they put into their mouths as what emerges from those same mouths ... but that is so very old, I hesitate to even bring it up ...

Well put. It should be brought up more often.

It's an old Christian statement, one meant to justify violation of Kashrut - one of the things that caused the Jewish Christians to be considered heretics and split them off from the Jewish community. The context of the statement and its target cannot be ignored.

It's one thing to make a personal choice about whether to restrict one's diet or not, and quite another to make polemical statements against Kashrut. I think we should be careful not to be disrespectful toward people's religious dietary laws. We don't have kosher-observers on eGullet upbraiding treif-eating Jews as sinners, so how about if all of us, Jew and non-Jew alike, don't belittle or otherwise argue against the observance of kashrut. I notice that the kosher-observers in this thread haven't taken offense, but nevertheless.

[hjshorter]

Decent people of all faiths are innately decent .... matters not so much what they put into their mouths as what emerges from those same mouths ... but that is so very old, I hesitate to even bring it up ...

Well put. It should be brought up more often.

It's an old Christian statement, one meant to justify violation of Kashrut - one of the things that caused the Jewish Christians to be considered heretics and split them off from the Jewish community. The context of the statement and its target cannot be ignored.

It's one thing to make a personal choice about whether to restrict one's diet or not, and quite another to make polemical statements against Kashrut. I think we should be careful not to be disrespectful toward people's religious dietary laws. We don't have kosher-observers on eGullet upbraiding treif-eating Jews as sinners, so how about if all of us, Jew and non-Jew alike, don't belittle or otherwise argue against the observance of kashrut. I notice that the kosher-observers in this thread haven't taken offense, but nevertheless.

Huh? Exactly how is this offensive? Did I miss something?

[JFLinLA]

I thought this post would start some discussion but, Oy Vey!

I wonder how the discussion would go about a beef-eating Hindu?

Everyday, there are newer, better, more improved, kosher items which did not exist heretofore ... and I can see it in its historical pespective even .. today, there are such miracles as Kosher l'Pesach potato chips, and various cereals which are new as well .. even the dry-as-dust Passover cake mixes have been "up-graded" ... and no frequent flyer miles required!

Best memory of all? Ersatz Pesachdik "noodles" many years ago ... only problem with them was that upon entering the boiling soup, they completely disintegrated! 

Clearly, as the American food supply has improved, there are more and more products that make keeping Kosher easier than it was even a few years ago. The only time of year the kids get to have sugary cereals in the house is Passover and they look forward to it.

As for the "dry" Passover cakes, I've made it a hobby of mine to find delicious non-hametz desserts for Passover. I don't keep Kosher but I also do not eat hametz (breads and other products using grain, unless prepared under the strictest conditions) during Passover. Hence, while these desserts do not use hametz, they are made in my regular appliances, bakeware, etc. and served on the regular dishes.

As for the noodles, this spring I'll actually have to spend time with my mother in law so, once and for all, I can learn to make the delicious "lokshen" she makes for soup at Passover. I think it is only eggs and potato starch.

The issue of "kids" having to change their ways, depends on the age of the kids. If the kids were already adults when this new marriage occured, I would hope they would have the manners to understand that you respect the choices people make about their own lives, in their own home.

[Mark Sommelier]

The essence of this dilemma was hit directly on the head by Mr. Shaw. Kashruth involves far more than just the avoidance of certain biblical foods (Leviticus, Chapter 11). Seeking out kosher purveyors is one part. The separation of plates, eating utensils and pots and pans is another. This is not possible outside the home unless the restaurant is a certified kosher establishment. Having a salad and broiled sea bass at ADNY is not the same as keeping kosher.

[Pan]

Decent people of all faiths are innately decent .... matters not so much what they put into their mouths as what emerges from those same mouths ... but that is so very old, I hesitate to even bring it up ...

Well put. It should be brought up more often.

It's an old Christian statement, one meant to justify violation of Kashrut - one of the things that caused the Jewish Christians to be considered heretics and split them off from the Jewish community. The context of the statement and its target cannot be ignored.

It's one thing to make a personal choice about whether to restrict one's diet or not, and quite another to make polemical statements against Kashrut. I think we should be careful not to be disrespectful toward people's religious dietary laws. We don't have kosher-observers on eGullet upbraiding treif-eating Jews as sinners, so how about if all of us, Jew and non-Jew alike, don't belittle or otherwise argue against the observance of kashrut. I notice that the kosher-observers in this thread haven't taken offense, but nevertheless.

Huh? Exactly how is this offensive? Did I miss something?

Evidently so. Don't you get it that telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect is polemical and can be offensive?

[Mark Sommelier]

Decent people of all faiths are innately decent .... matters not so much what they put into their mouths as what emerges from those same mouths ... but that is so very old, I hesitate to even bring it up ...

Well put. It should be brought up more often.

It's an old Christian statement, one meant to justify violation of Kashrut - one of the things that caused the Jewish Christians to be considered heretics and split them off from the Jewish community. The context of the statement and its target cannot be ignored.

It's one thing to make a personal choice about whether to restrict one's diet or not, and quite another to make polemical statements against Kashrut. I think we should be careful not to be disrespectful toward people's religious dietary laws. We don't have kosher-observers on eGullet upbraiding treif-eating Jews as sinners, so how about if all of us, Jew and non-Jew alike, don't belittle or otherwise argue against the observance of kashrut. I notice that the kosher-observers in this thread haven't taken offense, but nevertheless.

Huh? Exactly how is this offensive? Did I miss something?

Evidently so. Don't you get it that telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect is polemical and can be offensive?

Certainly this topic is applicable to the many different peoples who keep some kind of restricted diet. There are McDonalds in India. What were they thinking?

[bloviatrix]

The essence of this dilemma was hit directly on the head by Mr. Shaw. Kashruth involves far more than just the avoidance of certain biblical foods (Leviticus, Chapter 11). Seeking out kosher purveyors is one part. The separation of plates, eating utensils and pots and pans is another. This is not possible outside the home unless the restaurant is a certified kosher establishment. Having a salad and broiled sea bass at ADNY is not the same as keeping kosher.

Mark, this is conundrum that my dear husband reminds of on those now rare occasions when I now dine out. And it's a problem many orthodox jews deal with if they need to entertain for business (Kosher restaurants are not always an option, even in a city like NY).

And this is where the years of going to yeshiva and learning the laws of kashrut come into play. It is called manipulating the laws to your benefit.

Edited January 7, 2004 by bloviatrix (log)