Can a foodie keep Kosher?

[Mark Sommelier]

Mark, this is conundrum that my dear husband reminds of on those now rare occasions when I now dine out.  And it's a problem many orthodox jews deal with if they need to entertain for business. 

And this is where the years of going to yeshiva and learning the laws of kashrut come into play.  It is called manipulating the laws to your benefit.

Blovia,

I remember many years ago when I worked at Jean-Louis at the Watergate, a customer told me that 2 of his guest kept kosher. He asked what they could eat. I leanded over and whispered in his ear: "Nothing". Everything in that place had been kissed by pork parts you never even heard of. It seemed like a silly conceit to me at the time. It still does. Manipulating the laws, that's a great way to put it. Thanks.

Edited January 7, 2004 by Mark Sommelier (log)

[Pan]

Again, it seems to you a silly conceit, but that's because you don't accept the opening premise. Judaism is a religion of laws that are interpreted according to arguments that are in many ways very logical - if you accept the opening premise and are then willing to "build a fence around the Torah" by following things to their logical conclusion even if you end up considering chicken meat for the purpose of the Biblical commandment "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk." I really don't think eGullet is the place to argue with the opening premises of religions. If you don't find kashrut logical, don't keep kosher. People who really are strictly kosher don't eat anything that isn't kosher, period, except if necessary to avoid starvation or illness, and yes, that does involve pots and pans because what the laws deal with is a series of ritual separations of the ritually clean and the ritually unclean, milk and meat, Sabbath and the rest of the week, men and women, light and darkness, etc. Again: There is an internal logic to it. But eGullet isn't the place to talk about the anthropology of binary opposition, either.

Edited January 7, 2004 by Pan (log)

[Gifted Gourmet]

I remember many years ago when I worked at Jean-Louis at the Watergate, a customer told me that 2 of his guest kept kosher. He asked what they could eat. I leanded over and whispered in his ear: "Nothing".  Everything in that place had been kissed by pork parts you never even heard of. It seemed like a silly conceit to me at the time. It still does. Manipulating the laws, that's a great way to put it. Thanks.

Manipulating the laws? .... if one is strictly observant about his or her kashrut, there is not much leeway to manipulate the laws .. they are quite specific as to what may or may not be eaten ... it is the handing down of those traditions that kashrut is based upon, from one generation to another ... and if one eats out in a restaurant, the place must be under rabbinical supervision .... but which rabbi does the supervising is yet another entire thread (but not for here) because some accept the "hashgacha" from one rabbi yet not another ..

These many variations would make for quite an interesting book .... one friend will eat this here, but not at home, but someone else can take home restaurant leftovers and eat them on a paper plate outside on the porch .... you name it, it has been done .... Rabbi Ribeye has quite a few hysterically vivid stories on these variations ...

[Pan]

Huh?  Exactly how is this offensive?  Did I miss something?

Evidently so. Don't you get it that telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect is polemical and can be offensive?

Certainly this topic is applicable to the many different peoples who keep some kind of restricted diet. There are McDonalds in India. What were they thinking?

They were probably thinking that there are millions of Muslims and Christians who eat beef gladly. Also, I believe the McVeggie Burger or some such is popular in Indian McDonalds. McDonalds tailors their offerings to the market in every country where it has a presence.

[bloviatrix]

if you accept the opening premise and are then willing to "build a fence around the Torah" by following things to their logical conclusion even if you end up considering chicken meat for the purpose of the Biblical commandment "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk."

Actually, poultry was originally in the same category as fish. However, at some point, the Rabbis decided to move it over to the same category as meat in order to minimize confusion. In Judaism, there is a tradition of precendence, hence once something is decided, you can't go back.

[Pan]

I think I remember that the Sephardim considered poultry to be pareve for some time.

But there are indeed Jewish laws that were nullified, including laws making slavery legal, so precedents aren't always the be-all and end-all.

These things are immensely complicated.

[Mark Sommelier]

Again, it seems to you a silly conceit, but that's because you don't accept the opening premise. Judaism is a religion of laws that are interpreted according to arguments that are in many ways very logical - if you accept the opening premise and are then willing to "build a fence around the Torah" by following things to their logical conclusion even if you end up considering chicken meat for the purpose of the Biblical commandment "Thou shalt not seethe a kid in its mother's milk." I really don't think eGullet is the place to argue with the opening premises of religions. If you don't find kashrut logical, don't keep kosher. Bloviatrix isn't strictly kosher, it's become clear. People who really are strictly kosher don't eat anything that isn't kosher, period, except if necessary to avoid starvation or illness, and yes, that does involve pots and pans because what the laws deal with is a series of ritual separations of the ritually clean and the ritually unclean, milk and meat, Sabbath and the rest of the week, men and women, light and darkness, etc. Again: There is an internal logic to it. But eGullet isn't the place to talk about the anthropology of binary opposition, either.

Michael,

I tried to point out the fact that keeping kosher is more than just what a person eats. It involves a whole way of life. Therefore, public restaurants that are not kosher establishments preclude themselves. I knew I shouldn't have jumped into this, and now I regret it. I'm out.

[Pan]

Mark, I'm not trying to chase people out of this discussion, I just think it's important to avoid stepping on the toes of kosher observers by making criticisms of kashrut as either silly or/and superfluous because what's important is only what comes out of one's mouth and not what goes in. Just as eGulleteers have strong partisan political opinions but do not post messages here like "Conservatism is a silly conceit" or "the world would be better off without Liberal politicians," I think it would be a lot better to discuss religion-based dietary prohibitions without risking offense by unintentionally belittling them.

[jackal10]

Its clearly possible to have strong beliefs and be interested, even obsessed, with food. One can argue that the some of the difficulties make people more aware of what they are eating, and its place in the cosmos.

However some belief systems (Kashrut, Atkins for example) preclude certain experiences, and while emphasising others. They can increase the elements of ritual associated with food, and have complex interactions with both guilt and pleasure (and guilty pleasures).

Edited January 7, 2004 by jackal10 (log)

[hjshorter]

Evidently so. Don't you get it that telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect is polemical and can be offensive?

I'm sorry Michael. I read that statement over and over again, but honestly can't work out how it's telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect.

Edited January 7, 2004 by hjshorter (log)

[Fat Guy]

I think we're lucky in that those who keep kosher but have chosen to participate on eGullet are not likely to be particularly sensitive to commentary on their way of life -- they're ready to defend or discuss, rather than take offense. That's good -- we can all learn from that approach.

I'm sorry I have to run out now because I'd like to get deeper into the issue of rules. As Ellen mentioned above, the rise of modern orthodoxy and the resurgence of Chasidism have very much changed the way we think about kashruth in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. To some extent, this whole discussion thus far has mostly been a pre-discussion about defining terms, and most of the apparent substantive disagreements are actually just the result of failure to agree on definitions. More later.

[Rachel Perlow]

but, in the past, it has never ceased to amaze me as mold after mold collapsed unceremoniously on my serving platters into a puddle ...

An important part of jello mold construction is to use less water than you would if you were just making regular jello. If you review the recipe for the rainbow mold it uses approx 1.5 cups of water per package of jello rather than 2.

[Rachel Perlow]

but which rabbi does the supervising is yet another entire thread ... because some accept the "hashgacha" from one rabbi yet not another ... one friend will eat this here, but not at home, but someone else can take home restaurant leftovers and eat them on a paper plate outside on the porch .... you name it, it has been done

This reminds me of an issue I had to deal with this week. We had a death in the family and as the cousins sitting shiva live in the town next to where we live, I was asked by my mother & other cousins who they should call to order food from (don't send mourning Jews flowers, send food, fruit baskets or meals from local restaurants (kosher preferably, even if the mourners aren't kosher, some of their guests might be)). I recommended the local kosher deli, and in fact called them myself to order for them. They were very helpful and unselfishly explained that they could only send that family parve items (they had just sent over a dessert platter) as they were not glatt and they had learned that they family sitting shiva was very observant. They recommended a caterer (take out deli) that was glatt (across the street from them). So, while I consider the first location kosher, the fact that they are open on Saturday, to my cousins, means that they may as well be traif.

On another note, I visited yesterday and saw the platter I ordered being delivered. For the money spent (order of deli lunch for 8 at $10 pp), I thought it was kind of puny. Glatt kosher food is expensive.

[ronnie_suburban]

Evidently so. Don't you get it that telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect is polemical and can be offensive?

I'm sorry Michael. I read that statement over and over again, but honestly can't work out how it's telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect.

Me neither.

=R=

[alacarte]

I wonder how the discussion would go about a beef-eating Hindu?

Good question.

Or -- to make this more secular -- an Atkins dieter who puts their whole family on the diet? Can you still be a foodie and follow the restrictions of Atkins?

Which brings me to another semi-related observation. We've all noticed the Atkins economy by now. Every food manufacturer is jumping on the boat to provide products to allow the dieting masses to follow Atkins and not feel deprived. I felt a surge of familiarity when I last stood in the store, noting all the boxes to make no-carb cake and no-carb pasta, etc., etc.

Then it hit me: it reminded me of Passover. Boxes upon boxes of no-chametz cake, bags upon bags of no-chametz pasta. But the main difference: Passover lasts only eight days, and you're SUPPOSED to feel deprived. Oh, and you're allowed (nay, encouraged) to eat potatoes. Maybe that's why I never lost weight during Passover.

Will we see better Passover products this year, with all the advances made by Atkins-driven technology?

[cakewalk]

Interesting discussion, to say the least.

It was my understanding (I may be wrong) that McDonald's in India does not serve beef. I've heard that their "beef" products are all soy derivatives. This was a big thing in Israel about 8 or 9 years ago when the first McDonald's opened in Jerusalem - a non-kosher McDonald's that is open on Shabbat. Tremendous arguments raged back and forth, with many people pointing to India as an example that Israel should have followed. Again, I'm not sure whether or not it is true.

I think that saying "it's not necessary to keep kosher" implies (either deliberately or not, depending on who is saying it), at the very least, that there is no valid reason to do so. And yes, it is offensive, because I consider my reasons for keeping kosher most valid, to say the least. You might not agree with my reasons, but that does not alter their validity. When I hear people say this now, I generally get the feeling they are trying to "defend" (for lack of a better word) the fact that they themselves do not keep kosher, rather than insult the fact that I do. But the origin of the argument that kashrut is not "necessary" does start with the slow attempt to convert Jews to the relatively newly founded Christianity.

There are more levels of kashrut than I could ever imagine. Technically, it is true that if it ain't kosher, it ain't kosher. However, Jewish law is meant to be interpreted. In fact, it must be interpreted. There is no way to live if we take the laws literally, and the very purpose of those laws is to enable us to live - as Jews. I don't need to tell anyone here what happens once something - anything - is open to interpretation. The question becomes how seriously you take the entire, larger issue of keeping Jewish law, and then it narrows down to finding a level that is acceptable to you, that you can live with. Everyone will end up maintaining a different level. Some people will accept that fact that you do things differently than they do, others will look askance at it. That's the way it goes - and this of course goes way beyond religion. I mean, look at the responses to the semi-homemade-cooking stuff!

My own adherence to Jewish law seems to continually diminish. I'm kosher at home (although I buy non-kosher cheese), I do not eat pork or seafood anywhere, but I do eat in non-kosher restaurants (fish, veggies, salads, etc.) I started out eating only cold foods in restaurants, but now I'll eat hot, cooked foods too (there is a halachic difference between hot and cold, it really is a very complicated issue.) However, I don't kid myself into thinking that that stuff is kosher. It isn't. And even if the food itself is kosher, the utensils sure aren't. But that is my own level of adherence to the law. A lot of people will say that that's not good enough for them. Which is fine, their level of adherence is different, higher, stricter, "better," even. I accept that. I do not view Judaism as an "all or nothing" proposition.

But I don't agree that any of this means that one cannot be a foodie if one keeps kosher. I can't compare my lasagne to yours if you're using meat and milk together, there simply is no comparison to be made. But that doesn't mean I can't make a great sauce and use the same fresh tomatoes and herbs that you would use, it doesn't mean I can't make my own noodles, it doesn't mean my cooking is going to be "inferior" to yours in any way. It is going to be different, but different does not necessarily mean "better" or "worse."

Edited January 7, 2004 by cakewalk (log)

[Pan]

Evidently so. Don't you get it that telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect is polemical and can be offensive?

I'm sorry Michael. I read that statement over and over again, but honestly can't work out how it's telling people who keep kosher that their beliefs are incorrect.

We'll agree to disagree agreeably, then.

I certainly respect the belief that God doesn't care what you eat (and the belief that there is no God, in any case), but I just don't think it's right to argue here about what God (if any) wants or whether dietary prohibitions based on religious laws are illogical. It would be different if we were discussing dietary prohibitions based on diets for nutrition or weight loss, because then we'd be in the realm of facts and not beliefs based first of all on faith.

And that's all I'll say on that score.

[Ellen Shapiro]

Thanks, Pan. I too would like us to be careful to steer this conversation away from its potentially incendiary religious component and keep it focused on the basic question of whether kashruth observance makes foodieness (this is a word?) impossible.

To refine the question, I think it should really be: "What are the challenges to foodies presented by observing different levels of kashruth?"

[Gifted Gourmet]

Thanks, Pan. I too would like us to be careful to steer this conversation away from its potentially incendiary religious component and keep it focused on the basic question of whether kashruth observance makes foodieness (this is a word?) impossible.

To refine the question, I think it should really be: "What are the challenges to foodies presented by observing different levels of kashruth?"

The challenges that I face personally revolve around the restrictions ( please forgive my poor choice of words):

(1) only being able to use kosher ingredients in preparing food .. and I have cited several examples which personally have been problematic for me ( i.e. gelatin, nondairy creamers, limited choices like no shellfish)... and the substitutes for other ingredients which might render a recipe unkosher .. and the availability of ingredients locally ....

(2) which ties into availability of certain ingredients: wines and brandies must be under kosher supervision .. when my local Publix grocery brought in Kedem Port and Kedem Sherry, I immediately stockpiled them at home! Of course, now it is simply a matter of ordering them online ...

(3) if one is "strictly kosher" in eating outside the home, the availability of kosher restaurants which offer more "gourmet dining".... here in Atlanta, we have a sizeable Orthodox community which has had a very difficult time in maintaining local "gourmet" restaurants ... I have watched them open and close with alarming frequency ( a not very humorous example of this is when my family went to a newly opened glatt kosher deli and felt I had to order quickly because it might close by the time dessert arrived... ) ... because my brother is very strict about his kashrut, this has been a source of considerable disappointment, and, of course, discussion locally... an example: when a religious friend's son became engaged, he wanted to take his guests out for a special, festive, elegant dinner .. at the time, his only option here was a kosher pizza parlour.. they, of course, had to stay home and prepare the "simcha seudah" themselves ...

while I jest about some of the ramifications for me personally, I still find it hard to live with some of these restrictions ... and, when I eat out, I do try everything which might be otherwise deemed "forbidden" ... a personal failing perhaps, but also part of my conviction that life is meant to be savoured in whatever way an individual sees fit.

Edited January 7, 2004 by Gifted Gourmet (log)

[Msk]

Personally, the restrictions I have when cooking have made me a much better cook and more of a foodie. I simply refuse to sacrifice the quality of my food at home even given my restrictions.

Keeping a kosher kitchen has forced me to rigorously control my ingredients and not allow me to cheat using packaged items. This often means making my own tomato sauce, bread (thanks Jackal!), stock, etc. The end result is (usually) extremely pleasing to my pallate, a non-kosher, cheese-steak-loving, 4-star-restaurant-experienced pallate.

Can one make kosher equivalent versions of dishes that taste as good (though not EXACTlY)? Yes

Can someone who keeps strict Kashrut have food/wine/cooking as a hobby and be a foodie? Yes, there is a whole realm of food beyond shelfish and pork to be excited about.

Can someone who keeps strict Kashrut be a shellfish aficianado? Well, maybe if they are a marine biologist.

As FG said, alot of this debate seems to stem from definitions.

Msk

[Fat Guy]

bread (thanks Jackal!)

Watch out for that whole yoshon wheat thing, though.

[Pan]

What's that, Fat Guy?

[Fat Guy]

It's one of the more esoteric mitzvot. I don't really have a firm grasp on it, but yoshon I believe just means "old" in Hebrew, and in this context refers to grains from the previous season. Grain planted before Passover is yoshon, and grain planted after Passover is not. Don't ask me any other questions because that's all I know!

[Pan]

Well, that's 100% more than I knew about it until now. Hopefully, someone will explain more about it.

[Gifted Gourmet]

Well, that's 100% more than I knew about it until now. Hopefully, someone will explain more about it.

You have no conceivable idea what a "Pan-dora's Box" you are about to open with that tiny little innocuous comment, Pan!

There are literally thousands of food-oriented laws for one to peruse, ponder, and, ultimately, either accept or reject!

When FG says "esoteric mitzvot"... he ain't just whistlin' Dixie!!

Edited January 8, 2004 by Gifted Gourmet (log)