Real, authentic, thai food

[mb7o]

thanks,

i asked about typhoon not because i think they're in any way authentic, but rather because they claim to aim for 'higher' quality food with trained thai chefs, as opposed to random thai people saying 'lets open a restaurant because we're from an exotic place'.

(P.S. discuss their employment practices here. and the Redmond WA location is much better than the Seattle location for some reason.)

[ExtraMSG]

There's not as much difference between Typhoon and your average Thai place and Arun's (in Chicago) and your average Thai place. I think there is a consistency to Typhoon and a successful effort at fusing NW ingredients and tastes with what we think of as Thai tastes. But the gap has narrowed over the years, I think. There are a lot more medium level Thai places that have nice interiors, decent service, linen napkins, and a specials board that includes local ingredients. I think they're kind of like having a PF Changs (though with a regional emphasis). If your only options are dive Thai houses, a Typhoon can be a godsend, though you will pay more for aesthetics and a certain refinement that fits wealthier/Western expectations. But like I said, I think the gap is narrowing, at least in Portland, but also from what I've seen in Seattle, probably because Thai has become trendy. I haven't been to either of the Seattle area locations, however.

[wesza]

thanks,

i asked about typhoon not because i think they're in any way authentic, but rather because they claim to aim for 'higher' quality food with trained thai chefs, as opposed to random thai people saying 'lets open a restaurant because we're from an exotic place'.

(P.S. discuss their employment practices here. and the Redmond WA location is much better than the Seattle location for some reason.)

When a so called chain or multi unit restaurant operation isn't consistant then it's very possable that it's losing it's edge.

Professional operators who open restaurants in various locations where the are permitted to have their own personality or vary from the others generally will change the name or appearence to reflect the personality.

But if your any Typoon or whatever your customers don't anticipate or expect changes or for one place to be better then the other. That's managements responsability to it's clientle.

There are many groups that run different types of restaurants of every ethinic type that do this successfully with variations that compliment each other but still are different.

Irwin

[ExtraMSG]

Irwin, even McD's has unintended variation in quality from store to store.

[jschyun]

I had dinner at a local Thai restaurant that refused to serve me certain hot and sour soups because, as the waiter told me shaking his head, "Too hot for you."

The food was probably the best Thai I've had in the county, so far, and I just had the mild stuff.

[Shiewie]

Miang Kum may not have made it to New York. What is it?

I believe it's a northern thai street food dish, though the only place I managed to notice it was Bangkok. Basically it's a bunch of ingredients wrapped in a bai chapoo (or here, spinach) leaf, either by you or the vendor. The ingredients are dried shrimp, peanuts, chopped lime, chopped coconut, chopped ginger, some more things, and a marmalade like sauce.

http://www.thaifoodandtravel.com/recipes/mkum.html

Maybe it's not in NYC yet...

http://www.jamesbeard.org/events/2002/11/020.shtml

On authentic--bai chapoo leaves can be quite tough, and I find it very hard to choke down when they're that way. Perhaps that's the street-food ingredient-quality problem again.

Irwin--what do you think of Typhoon? They apparently recruit chefs from Thailand, as opposed to being a place started by immigrants.

At one point someone told me that many Thai restaurants around here were run by Vietnamese people. Perhaps many are, but the ones I've been to recently definately have mostly thai-speaking staff.

Hi Pan

The bai chapoo leaves are betel leaves - daun kadok in Malay.

[prasantrin]

At one point someone told me that many Thai restaurants around here were run by Vietnamese people. Perhaps many are, but the ones I've been to recently definately have mostly thai-speaking staff.

Just out of curiousity, are you quite sure it was Thai they were speaking and not Laotian? In my city (Winnipeg) almost all the Thai restaurants are owned and run by Laotians but some of them pass themselves off as Thai (say they are Thai though they are not). Since Thai and Laotian languages are similar, it would be easy to assume someone was speaking Thai when, in fact, he/she was speaking Laotian. Then again, in Winnipeg, most people don't know the difference (in terms of the language or otherwise) so pretty much any South-east Asian could pass him/herself off as Thai and the farangs wouldn't know any better.

I've been to one of the Typhoons in Portland and I was not impressed. When I eat at Thai restaurants, I use Pad Gkaprow Gai as a sort of yardstick. It's a fairly simple dish and can easily be replicated outside of Thailand. Typhoon's was very weak in flavour and they put green bell peppers in it. That's a big no-no in my book. They may have even put zucchini in it (or maybe that was another place) and that's a very very big no-no. Of course, that was several years ago (in 1999, I think) and things may have changed since then.

We always ask the staff if they (staff, owners, cooks) are Thai. That's the only way to know for sure (assuming they tell the truth).

(edited to add the "bell" in "bell peppers")

Edited January 6, 2004 by prasantrin (log)

[wesza]

Irwin, even McD's has unintended variation in quality from store to store.

The variations in McDonalds are superficial, and generally aren't allowed to prolifigate thru any segement of the chain. It's true that there may be variations based on certaian nuance for local taste such as rice, saimen and portugese sausage in Hawaii. But it's not reflecting the Chef since there isn't any, nor is it likely going to be the same kid flipping the burgers each time you try McDonalds.

However there is a large disparity between the branches of Typhoon located in the Seattle area much more then acceptable in what's supposedly a chain operation. [with Secret Recipes?] The prices and customers expectations are also on a different level then Fast Food while Typhoon is on the higher level for Thai.

[ExtraMSG]

I'm not saying the disparity is a good thing. Sounds like there's a lot more disparity there than here (in Portland). I'm just saying that my expectations for disparity actually increase with the level of the chain because the human element becomes much more of a factor. McD's and other fast food places try to eliminate the human element as much as possible and so there is greater similarity between outposts than probably any other restaurant chain. But even there, my experience is that some stores suck more than others, usually because of bad mgt and bad employees who don't care if something sits too long or if they follow guidelines for putting things together, etc. Just like the discussion of the disparity between the SW chicken buns at BK.

[wesza]

I'm not saying the disparity is a good thing. Sounds like there's a lot more disparity there than here (in Portland).  I'm just saying that my expectations for disparity actually increase with the level of the chain because the human element becomes much more of a factor.  McD's and other fast food places try to eliminate the human element as much as possible and so there is greater similarity between outposts than probably any other restaurant chain.  But even there, my experience is that some stores suck more than others, usually because of bad mgt and bad employees who don't care if something sits too long or if they follow guidelines for putting things together, etc.  Just like the discussion of the disparity between the SW chicken buns at BK.

Nick: Your probably right.

I haven't tried Burger King since they've began Micro Waving almost everything on the Menu and were pre-marking their chicken.

McDonalds I only try when something new is introduced, probably once every two months.

Pho places and non chain Mexican, Chinese or Thai or any ethinic is where my stomach leads me most often with hope. Example tried a new Taiwan Place yesterday.

Irwin

Edited January 7, 2004 by wesza (log)

[v. gautam]

"When your talking about "Indian Food" your going into a totally different type of heat. Again much of this has to do with the influence of the Spice Traders that may have some relationship for the assumption that the hottest food on the Indian Continent comes from Goa.

Again in India the cheapest food also is often the hottest as hot covers other shortcomings especially in hawker type street foods of questionable origins. "

Irwin,

Respectfully beg to disagree on both points. First, how "typical" American tastes encounter spiciness/richness in Indian food has something to do with how much of the starch and other accompaniments are consumed with the food. An Indian will typically use an larger quantity of rice/bread etc. as vehicle, plus combine it continuously with an array of accompaniments such as dal/pulse dishes, yogurt, salads, lime juice/pickles in ways most Americans do not, and the palette of flavors brought out by Indian meals differ, in many instances, for the two groups.

Goan food is not all that hot; the vindaloo propelled into 'heat' fame/notoriety by British curry houses has little to do with Goan vindaloo, save the name. If you go slightly south of Goa, and try the Udupi cooking of the Shetty community, that is talking about absolute hotness. Again, in kerala, heat levels vary by community/caste, ditto Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh.

Street hawker food that I have experienced rarely touches heat levels; its quality may or may not be acceptable, but most street food catered originally to particular communities/castes, and it is very difficult to agree with your conclusions.

I do not dispute solely for disputation's sake, but I am very concerned with the alrady large burden of mythmaking that is India's lot in too many walks of life, and i view with particular dismay, for example, Raymond Sokolov's or Copeland marks's self-styled expertise. The former has sid some ridiculous things aabout Indian fried breads for instance, based on ignorance. Anyway, i hope to continue learning from you, and so that your columns can serve as a source of authentic information, venture this post. regards, gautam

[jrufusj]

Just out of curiousity, are you quite sure it was Thai they were speaking and not Laotian? In my city (Winnipeg) almost all the Thai restaurants are owned and run by Laotians but some of them pass themselves off as Thai (say they are Thai though they are not). Since Thai and Laotian languages are similar, it would be easy to assume someone was speaking Thai when, in fact, he/she was speaking Laotian.

I think that for anyone who has not lived in Thailand or studied Thai language in depth, it would be very difficult to tell the difference between spoken Thai and spoken Lao. In fact, even for Thais it is difficult to draw a clear line between the two. As one moves northeast in the country from, say, Khon Kaen to Nakhon Phanom, the language moves more and more from Thai to Isaan/Lao. Many Thais from pak glaang (central Thailand) are have a hard time understanding (or at least pretend so for social reasons) the speech of those from the extremes of Isaan. My no. 1 (from Bangkok) mae baan (housekeeper) used to make the no. 2 (from Roi Et) speak to all Isaan workmen because she claimed she could not communicate with them.

Depending on the type of restaurant (for example an Isaan restaurant), someone speaking Lao might prepare the more authentic food. Then again, for royal Thai cuisine, I would expect to hear standard Chula-style Thai. In an ideal world, for food from the south, I would expect clipped vowels and machine gun speed speech. In an environment where most American/Canadian Thai restaurants try to be all things to all people, I don't get too hung up on regional differences as long as the speech is on the Thai/Lao continuum.

Typhoon's was very weak in flavour and they put green bell peppers in it. That's a big no-no in my book. They may have even put zucchini in it (or maybe that was another place) and that's a very very big no-no.

Absolutely agree on the bell pepper. That, along with the use of lemon juice rather than lime juice and the substitution of other peppers for prik ki nuu, is my immediate cue to leave a restaurant.

On the zucchini, my reaction is a little different. It's not authentic or ideal, but I have found it to be an acceptable substitute when the right kind of makhuea is not available. Handled correctly, it works much better than ordinary eggplant as a substitute. Living in Korea, where my options are very limited, I have occasionally used it myself in gaeng kiaow waan. I'm not crazy about it, but it doesn't set me off like bell pepper.

Funny how we all have our own revulsion triggers when it comes to substitution.

Jim

[ExtraMSG]

I think it's important to note, Jim, that Typhoon doesn't really try to be authentic, even if they claim that they do. They're trying to make semi-authentic Thai dishes that appeal to a broad Western palate often integrating Pacific NW ingredients. I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like them or people saying they're not authentic, but I do take issue with people saying they're bad because they're not authentic. They're two different issues.

[wesza]

"When your talking about "Indian Food" your going into a totally different type of heat. Again much of this has to do with the influence of the Spice Traders that may have some relationship for the assumption that the hottest food on the Indian Continent comes from Goa.

Again in India the cheapest food also is often the hottest as hot covers other shortcomings especially in hawker type street foods of questionable origins. "

Irwin,

Respectfully beg to disagree on both points. First, how "typical" American tastes encounter spiciness/richness in Indian food has something to do with how much of the starch and other accompaniments are consumed with the food. An Indian will typically use an larger quantity of rice/bread etc. as vehicle, plus combine it continuously with an array of accompaniments such as dal/pulse dishes, yogurt, salads, lime juice/pickles in ways most Americans do not, and the palette of flavors brought out by Indian meals differ, in many instances, for the two groups.

Goan food is not all that hot; the vindaloo propelled into 'heat' fame/notoriety by British curry houses has little to do with Goan vindaloo, save the name. If you go slightly south of Goa, and try the Udupi cooking of the Shetty community, that is talking about absolute hotness. Again, in kerala, heat levels vary by community/caste, ditto Tamil Nadu and Andhra Pradesh.

Street hawker food that I have experienced rarely touches heat levels; its quality may or may not be acceptable, but most street food catered originally to particular communities/castes, and it is very difficult to agree with your conclusions.

I do not dispute solely for disputation's sake, but I am very concerned with the alrady large burden of mythmaking that is India's lot in too many walks of life, and i view with particular dismay, for example, Raymond Sokolov's or Copeland marks's self-styled expertise. The former has sid some ridiculous things aabout Indian fried breads for instance, based on ignorance. Anyway, i hope to continue learning from you, and so that your columns can serve as a source of authentic information, venture this post. regards, gautam

v. gautam:

Except for short business trips to Calcutta and Bombay I haven't spent enough time in India to claim any expertise. The majority of my experience is from the Goanese/Portugese and Indian communities in Hong Kong and various Indian Restraunt operators thru out the world.

In Hong Kong it was considered amusing how the Goaenese were boasting about their ability to enjoy the hottest food anywhere. After seeing them go though over a pound of Scotch Bonnet Chilis that were brought from Jamacia as a treat I never doubted their claim. I wasn't able to do more then just nibble a taste from one chili. Whew, they were HOT.

There were quite a few Indian Restaurants and Food Shops in Hong Kong operated by various Indian Ethnic Groups and since many of the Children attended the same schools as my kids there was quite a bit of socialization with meals.

Most of my information has been aquired thru my previous company who set up and organized quite a few Restaurants for the various International Hotel Chains that operate in India for the last 35 years. Several were Indians educated at Hotel Schools in England and America. My response was based upon Information provided by them thru the years. They are currently involved thru their famlies in several very successfull upscale Indian Restaurants in the United States.

Again I didn't take into consideration that when Americans address a "Dish" it is generally on it's own. We may eat these dishes with the Codiments but we are likely to judge each item on it's own and not part of the whole experience.

Using that basis it provides a different approach to eating, that should also be considered for Thai, Chinese and Korean Dishes.

Regarding Indian Street Foods checking with my friends they say that visitors are generally advised not to eat any street foods when in India and they are cautious when visiting about what they consume as well since their systems are not orientated.

Thank you for the information as i'm sure that you correct and it should and will be taken into account in any of my responses in the future.

Irwin

[jrufusj]

I think it's important to note, Jim, that Typhoon doesn't really try to be authentic, even if they claim that they do. They're trying to make semi-authentic Thai dishes that appeal to a broad Western palate often integrating Pacific NW ingredients. I don't have a problem with people saying they don't like them or people saying they're not authentic, but I do take issue with people saying they're bad because they're not authentic. They're two different issues.

Sorry if I gave the impression that I was criticizing Typhoon. I've never been there and have no opinion of the food, the authenticity, or how they meet their stated objectives.

What I do have an issue with is a restaurant billing itself as a Thai (or Japanese, or Mexican, or Italian, or Burkina Fasoan, or even American for that matter) restaurant when they intentionally take a step away from the authentic cuisine of that country. I understand that perfect replication is impossible for any number of reasons. But when a restaurant consciously decides to alter the flavor, texture, intensity, etc. of its food away from the authentic model, it is no longer a Thai restaurant. I have no problem with the terms Thai-inspired, Thai-influenced, Thai-fusion, even Thai-American. I do, however, have a problem with calling it Thai, because it is not.

Thai food is not inherently better or worse than adapted/fused/foreigner friendly Thai-ish food. It's just different.

None of this applies as direct criticism or praise for Typhoon because I've never been there and have no direct experience of how they describe themselves or what they serve.

Jim

[ExtraMSG]

I can see where you're coming from and it's an important issue in food criticism, I think, even the casual criticism we all play with here.

However, I tend to disagree. What else should most Thai restaurants in the US call themselves? What about Indian food restaurants in Britain and the US? Mexican food restaurants in the US and abroad might be the most troubling for you since really what's termed Mexican is usually a regional American cuisine heavily influenced by Mexican cuisine, not just a "dumbed-down" version (as someone like Kennedy might call it, probably unfairly) of the original cuisine as is Thai and Indian (although Indian is closer in that regard with things like Chicken Tikka Masala which were invented in Britain from what I understand and are ubiquitous in the west).

It's just not very feasible, nor does it impart extra meaning to 99% of patrons to call a place like Typhoon Thai-American, Thai-Fusion or whatever. Just like it wouldn't mean much to call most Mexican restaurants Mexican-American or Regional-American-Mexican, or to call most curry houses British-Indian restaurants.

Contextually, we already know that (and context is more important for meaning than any word or phrase used). The exception is the truly authentic restaurant, in Mexican places like Cafe Azul here in Portland or to a slightly lesser extent Bayless' restaurants in Chicago. Or the authentic Thai places, which, apparently, I've never been to yet. Same with Indian. They're quite rare and very few people would know the difference and if they were given the difference, because of their unaccustomed palates, they might just get a prejudice against that cuisine.

Basically, it's both unwieldy and meaningless to play a names game with cuisines. If authentic Thai, Mexican, or Indian ever gains parity with its less-authentic counterparts, a way of distinguishing them will probably emerge anyway, either by price, like with Italian, or by name, such as references to their regionality.

[jrufusj]

ExtraMSG:

I don't necessarily disagree with you in that very few restaurants would meet an absolute standard of authenticity and that applying the names Thai-American or Thai-Fusion would be meaningless or just a name game. When a restaurant adheres to authenticity the best it can within the context of ingredients that are available, then I don't think it is unreasonable to call that restaurant Thai.

However, I would reiterate my belief that when a restaurant makes a conscious and willful departure from authenticity, it forfeits the right to be called Thai. To my mind, substituting lemon juice for lime juice or using bell pepper is such a departure. It simply is not necessary and is either sloppy or a willful departure. I guess part of my point here is that it is a departure that goes beyond organic development or adaptation to local constraints and reaches to a level of clash or incompatibility.

Perhaps that highlights my real bugaboo. Thai food does not require any particular ingredient (okay, maybe coriander root, garlic, black pepper, shrimp paste, fish sauce, lime), but it does have an underlying ethos and palate of flavors. Certain techniques and ingredients are inherently in conflict with that ethos and palate and throw the balance that is the foundation of Thai cooking out of equilibrium. It may be good. It may be bad. But it isn't Thai if it loses that ethos and balance.

Taking the example of most food that is styled as Mexican, I think there is a useful label of Tex Mex. To me that is highly expressive and I know roughly what to expect when something is described as Tex Mex.

Clearly there's no right answer here and I don't mean to oversimplify. There is a continuum between slavish authenticity and willful departure. Slavish authenticity is not necessarily best, as when less fresh ingredients are used in order to try to stay authentic. I would go so far as to say that substitution can be more authentic in a case such as Japanese or Italian when freshness, seasonality, and locality are such informing elements in the ethos of the cuisine. However, it is my opinion that unnecessary departure just for the sake of innovation or adaptation or greater appeal to the local market forfeits the right to the name. My preferred descriptor is probably Thai-influenced, but even that's not perfect.

I agree that this is an important issue in both high criticism and folk criticism (like what most of us do here). What makes it so difficult is that I also agree that there is no easy descriptor for the problem we are talking about.

I apologize if I sound pedantic or rigid or self-righteous in the post. I don't mean to be. Beyond a very limited scope, I don't think that I have the ability to prepare authentic Japanese or Thai or Chinese food. I typically describe whatever I prepare (outside the dishes that are truly authentic) as xxxxx-style or xxxx-influenced food.

This is fun, isn't it?

Jim

[ExtraMSG]

But almost no one uses the term "Tex Mex", even in Texas. Go through a phone book and the term is "Mexican". And "Tex Mex" is usually inaccurate anyway, since many of the Mexican places are regionally from California, New Mexico, or Arizona, or universal Mexican-American adaptions from authentic Mexican.

We're dealing with the bald man dilemma or fallacy, or whatever you want to call it, here. You can pluck away hairs from the head of a man one by one and he's not bald. However, when you pluck away enough hairs, the man is clearly bald. Which hair does it? It's a fine line that's quite subjective. But we still know the difference between a bald man and a man with hair, there's just a grey area in between.

I know you haven't been to Typhoon, but look at their menu:

http://www.typhoonrestaurants.com/dinner.htm

I think it would be a huge mistake to use any term other than Thai to describe Typhoon because that's the term that will communicate best to the greatest number of people. Sure, it should be clarified when talking with experienced Thai eaters or people interested in understanding nuances of Thai food and Thai food in America, but basically, it's Thai food.

Setting a bar, such as saying that lemons instead of limes or bell peppers in a specific dish, falls prey to the same critique of someone who tries to say that after the 200th hair is pulled from a man's head, he is then bald. You have to look at each more wholistically. You look at Typhoon with its menu and the best term is "Thai" just like the best term for Baja Fresh a couple blocks from my house is "Mexican".

We can qualify it for accuracy when necessary or fruitful just like we can say a man isn't fully bald, but has a nasty-looking comb-over. However, for simplicity and ease of communication we just tell people the guy is bald.

I even think it's quite fruitful to refer to places like Tabla in NY as Indian, even though they're consciously and aggressively fusion. But if someone were to ask, "So, this Tabla palce we're going to, what kind of food is it?" The first answer out of my mouth would probably be: "Indian". Though I'd certainly want to qualify it.

I think you're generally right that it isn't X if it loses the "ethos" of X. However, that is a perception, not something objective. And the use of the term isn't static or objective either. It's made sense of in a historical and cultural context. And in our historical/cultural context it currently makes sense to speak of places like Typhoon as Thai food even though that may be partially because of a lack of a familiarity with the cuisine in its native land, with its native ingredients, and native prejudices about flavors and flavor combinations. But in America, that's still Thai food. Some day, maybe Thai food will be more like what's enjoyed in Thailand. Maybe it'll be more diverse in many ways than what's enjoyed in Thailand because the authentic cuisine will be enjoyed here as well as the Westernized version.

[balex]

We're dealing with the bald man dilemma or fallacy, or whatever you want to call it, here. You can pluck away hairs from the head of a man one by one and he's not bald. However, when you pluck away enough hairs, the man is clearly bald. Which hair does it? It's a fine line that's quite subjective. But we still know the difference between a bald man and a man with hair, there's just a grey area in between.

(OT)

It's called a sorites paradox.

[prasantrin]

Absolutely agree on the bell pepper. That, along with the use of lemon juice rather than lime juice and the substitution of other peppers for prik ki nuu, is my immediate cue to leave a restaurant.

On the zucchini, my reaction is a little different. It's not authentic or ideal, but I have found it to be an acceptable substitute when the right kind of makhuea is not available. Handled correctly, it works much better than ordinary eggplant as a substitute. Living in Korea, where my options are very limited, I have occasionally used it myself in gaeng kiaow waan. I'm not crazy about it, but it doesn't set me off like bell pepper.

Funny how we all have our own revulsion triggers when it comes to substitution.

Jim

I'm a little more lenient about the prik ki nuu, since I'm in the Canadian prairies and there's only so much we can do with Thai food here . However, the one Thai restaurant I do frequent uses prik ki nuu so I've not had to deal with substitutions in that department.

I don't mind the use of zucchini when makhuea is not available, but I do mind it in my Pad Gkaprow Gai, which is where I found the zucchini. Pad Gkaprow Gai is such a simple dish and calls for no bell pepper or zucchini or even makhuea. While I understand why some "Thai" restaurants add vegetables to it, I wish they wouldn't. To me it's like taking a grilled cheese sandwich and adding tomatoes, bacon, and lettuce--it's no longer grilled cheese but becomes something else. My friend who owns the Thai restaurant I go to said she originally served Pad Gkaprow Gai with just the chicken, basil, and chile but customers complained because other "Thai" restaurants had a lot of vegetables in theirs. She eventually began adding vegetables to hers, too, because people wouldn't eat it otherwise. If I ask, she'll make it for me the usual way though.

Another subsitution/addition that irks me is carrots. That one is far worse than bell peppers, in my opinion, and should I find them (or broccoli, for that matter) in my curry I know I'm in the wrong place.

[Pan]

However, I would reiterate my belief that when a restaurant makes a conscious and willful departure from authenticity, it forfeits the right to be called Thai. To my mind, substituting lemon juice for lime juice or using bell pepper is such a departure. It simply is not necessary and is either sloppy or a willful departure. I guess part of my point here is that it is a departure that goes beyond organic development or adaptation to local constraints and reaches to a level of clash or incompatibility.

I don't like green bell peppers, and all bell peppers are lousy for my digestion, so I'll join anyone in a loud chant of "Bell peppers suck!" But while substituting lemon juice for fragrant lime juice is an abomination to me, why is the use of bell peppers such a severe infraction in your opinion?

[jrufusj]

ExtraMSG wrote:

We're dealing with the bald man dilemma or fallacy, or whatever you want to call it, here. You can pluck away hairs from the head of a man one by one and he's not bald. However, when you pluck away enough hairs, the man is clearly bald. Which hair does it? It's a fine line that's quite subjective. But we still know the difference between a bald man and a man with hair, there's just a grey area in between.

Agreed. That's why this is so difficult. However, there is a series of descriptors that can be used to describe the grey area: receding hairline, bald spot, thinly covered, major combover, etc. These are fairly descriptive and give a much more accurate picture than saying simply "The man is bald" or "The man has hair".

I would agree with you that there is no good vocabulary for such gradation in describing restaurants today. However, this is what I am arguing that we should develop. Please understand that I don't blame any person or restaurant for the more or less binary nature of labeling (i.e., Thai or some term like Thai-fusion). I just think we could do much better, just as we can do a better job of describing the state of a man's pate.

I am not a professional cook, restaurant investor, food writer, or food educator (though I have done a bit of catering and food/wine education, it is not material). As such, I have the luxury of being a bit of an idealist. I spend most of my day dealing with the realities of investment banking, marriage, and childrearing. When I enter a restaurant or my kitchen or my journal or keyboard I can begin to deal in the realm of what could be rather than what is. Food is amazing to me...it is both real and fundamental, as well as a potential escape from reality.

The prior paragraph is just my way of saying that I will tend to be a bit of an idealist when we get into discussions of how to label food and what a perfect Thai (or anything else) restaurant should be. I realize that and I know what I argue for is not possible today. However, even if I take it to the extreme, one of the jobs of a critic is not only to describe what is, but to envision what could/should be. I think that task applies in this discussion.

ExtraMSG further wrote:

I think you're generally right that it isn't X if it loses the "ethos" of X. However, that is a perception, not something objective. And the use of the term isn't static or objective either. It's made sense of in a historical and cultural context. And in our historical/cultural context it currently makes sense to speak of places like Typhoon as Thai food even though that may be partially because of a lack of a familiarity with the cuisine in its native land, with its native ingredients, and native prejudices about flavors and flavor combinations. But in America, that's still Thai food.

I think you and I come from a different perspective here that perhaps cannot be reconciled. I am a died-in-the-wool prescriptivist, in grammar and vocabulary, as well as in most other areas of life. I firmly believe that words have objective meanings and defining them contextually is simply a process of debasing them. As such, I believe that the definition of Thai food is the same anywhere in the world, regardless of context. There may be ingredient substitutions; in fact they may be necessary to maintain authenticity within the overall ethos of the cuisine.

But beyond such minor substitutions, I view "Thai food" as a prescribed term that requires change when material, willful departures in the food occur.

pransantrin wrote:

I don't mind the use of zucchini when makhuea is not available, but I do mind it in my Pad Gkaprow Gai, which is where I found the zucchini. Pad Gkaprow Gai is such a simple dish and calls for no bell pepper or zucchini or even makhuea. While I understand why some "Thai" restaurants add vegetables to it, I wish they wouldn't. To me it's like taking a grilled cheese sandwich and adding tomatoes, bacon, and lettuce--it's no longer grilled cheese but becomes something else.

Completely 100% agreed. I hadn't caught the fact that you were talking about zucchini in Gai Pad Kaprao. If you got through my philosophical wanderings above, you won't doubt that I agree with you.

Pan wrote:

I don't like green bell peppers, and all bell peppers are lousy for my digestion, so I'll join anyone in a loud chant of "Bell peppers suck!" But while substituting lemon juice for fragrant lime juice is an abomination to me, why is the use of bell peppers such a severe infraction in your opinion?

I'm not sure I have the descriptive skill to enunciate it, but something about the flavor profile of green bell peppers is so out of synch with the general palate of Thai food that it just seems incredibly discordant. I guess it is a particular herbaceous note that just strikes me as off. Though, like prasantrin, I am annoyed by carrot and don't think it belongs, I think it is less purely discordant than green bell pepper.

This is all very interesting and fun. As I have said, this is for me an escape from the reality of everyday life into a realm where everything is both very real and also subject to idealization.

Apropos the kosher/foodie thread, food is much like religion for me in that it is at once both elemental and also idealized. Perhaps music is like that for Pan. I am a Catholic Christian who finds faith and food inextricably linked in idea, in practice, and in teaching. Like I imagine Judaism to be, Catholicism can be very much prescriptivist. At its best, I believe food criticism is as well.

Jim

[Pan]

Are bell peppers really cheap in the U.S., and is that why they are used so often (and mentioned so seldom in the menu) in Thai, Chinese, and Vietnamese restaurants in the U.S.? I wish they'd stop!

[QuinaQuen]

Is barbecue sauce typically sweet in the Houston area? (I ask, of course, because I'm wondering about any correlation.)

Barbecue sauce in Houston is not regionally definitive, like the molasses you might find in Memphis or the unseasoned ketchup that passes for BBQ sauce on the grills of Kansas City. Since we are at the crossroads of South Texas, East Texas, and Central Texas (not to mention our high immigration rate from less important parts of the country,) every barbecue joint in town has a different style of sauce and a different heat level in both the rubs and the sauce.

Outside of chiaparro strongholds on the southwest side of town and Korean restaurants in the near northwest, however, the jalapeno is probably the strongest chile you'll find in restaurant barbecue. Which is not to say that Houston doesn't have the highest per capita capsaicin tolerance in the nation. We just get our arbol, japon, dundicut, habanero, etc.etc.etc. kicks in other dishes.

Oh yeah, the sweet thing. No, our sauce tends more towards vinegariness in mom&pop BBQ joints, due to the influence of the Czechs and Germans in Central Texas and the Nortenos from whom they learned the style. Even our East Texas freedmen-style (i.e. Deep South) sauce goes more for acidity than sweetness.

[QuinaQuen]

Absolutely agree on the bell pepper.  That, along with the use of lemon juice rather than lime juice and the substitution of other peppers for prik ki nuu, is my immediate cue to leave a restaurant.

On the zucchini, my reaction is a little different.  It's not authentic or ideal, but I have found it to be an acceptable substitute when the right kind of makhuea is not available.  Handled correctly, it works much better than ordinary eggplant as a substitute.  Living in Korea, where my options are very limited, I have occasionally used it myself in gaeng kiaow waan.  I'm not crazy about it, but it doesn't set me off like bell pepper.

Funny how we all have our own revulsion triggers when it comes to substitution.

Jim

I'm a little more lenient about the prik ki nuu, since I'm in the Canadian prairies and there's only so much we can do with Thai food here . However, the one Thai restaurant I do frequent uses prik ki nuu so I've not had to deal with substitutions in that department.

I don't mind the use of zucchini when makhuea is not available, but I do mind it in my Pad Gkaprow Gai, which is where I found the zucchini. Pad Gkaprow Gai is such a simple dish and calls for no bell pepper or zucchini or even makhuea. While I understand why some "Thai" restaurants add vegetables to it, I wish they wouldn't. To me it's like taking a grilled cheese sandwich and adding tomatoes, bacon, and lettuce--it's no longer grilled cheese but becomes something else. My friend who owns the Thai restaurant I go to said she originally served Pad Gkaprow Gai with just the chicken, basil, and chile but customers complained because other "Thai" restaurants had a lot of vegetables in theirs. She eventually began adding vegetables to hers, too, because people wouldn't eat it otherwise. If I ask, she'll make it for me the usual way though.

Another subsitution/addition that irks me is carrots. That one is far worse than bell peppers, in my opinion, and should I find them (or broccoli, for that matter) in my curry I know I'm in the wrong place.

So what do you want from your local Thai restaurant? The purest authenticity? Think of it this way: Four hundred years (give or take) ago, there were no chiles in Thailand. Tomatoes had not been introduced to Sicily but a few years before that. Cheese was a rarity in Veracruz and entirely unknown in Monterrey. No enchiladas in San Antonio, no Kung Pao in Guangdong, no polenta in Tuscany, no Nam Sod in Bangkok. Or if there was, it sucked because there was no capsaicin to differentiate it from Dinty freakin' Moore.

Let it evolve. That's what cuisines do when they meet new materials and new environments. For every weak little bell pepper (and they still taste good in spite of their wussiness) in your pra lard prik, there is a touch of blessed rosemary in your tom kha. Enjoy it, tolerate it, or pick it out.