H&H v. Tal

[ronnie_suburban]

Come on Irwin...I'd rather not sit here clicking 'refresh' all night

=R=

[Bux]

The one thing I do think can't be excused by editorial limitations is Levine's overall overly positive take on New York bagels. The reality is that the bagel situation in New York is quite dire, and that even the top places are doing things wrong. I know bad news doesn't necessarily sell, but it needs to be said.

Ed says he searched to determine what makes a "great and authentic New York bagel." He found several that he judged "superb," although some of these could be improved in his mind. It's also clear however, that he's accepting the bagel on it's 21st century evolved standard. "Evolved" is a euphemism for reduced, here. I've not had a bagel from Absolute Bagels and it may be a match for the bagels of the 1950's. I tend to doubt it, if Murray's bagels are another traditional bagel. I happened to stop at the Murray's on Sixth Avenue early last week and had a poppy seed bagel with cream cheese. Although there was too much cream cheese, the roll was excellent, but it was not much like the bagels I remember from the fifties. It's been a long time since I've had one that even reminded me of those and a longer time since I've had one in NY that reminded me of those of my childhood. In an odd way, the bagels I had in Montreal some time ago, came closest.

For one thing, the hole in the center of a bagel should have a diameter as large as a cross section through the ring. For another, the texture should be dense, really jaw numbing dense when you make a sandwich using both halves. Even a very fresh whole bagel made a good teething ring. Then there's the taste. Maybe it's the lack of malt, or maybe Irwin has the answer, but the taste is missing something intrinsic to a bagel. Traditions die. Sometimes they die harder than others. The new bagel has been around almost as long as the traditional bagel, and there are already so few who remember it that it's just a matter of "the bagel is dead, long live the bagel." For a while I consoled myself with croissants, but either my bagel depravation is catching up with me or my neighborhood croissants have deteriorated faster than the bagel in NY and I'm learning to deal with the new bagel on its terms.

[Jason Perlow]

For one thing, the hole in the center of a bagel should have a diameter as large as a cross section through the ring.

Seriously, the modern bagel has almost completely lost its hole. Its now like a navel, or a rectum.

[joiei]

I currently live in a bagel wasteland, but I have fond memories of Bagel Fair on 163rd in North Miami. We would drive from Tampa to make bagel runs, buying for all the guys who lived on my hall at USF. A typical run would be for 16=18 dozen of those puppies. Drive down, drive back. This was in the early 70's.

[Bux]

For one thing, the hole in the center of a bagel should have a diameter as large as a cross section through the ring.

Seriously, the modern bagel has almost completely lost its hole. Its now like a navel, or a rectum.

Another reason I think I am able to appreciate the modern bagel on it's own terms without regard to how well it performs on the bagel standard is that the resemblance to what I think of as a bagel is so slight.

[wesza]

I thought Ed Levine did a very good job on this piece. I wonder what editorial constraints he was operating under -- it seemed a bit short given the scope of the investigation so I'm reluctant to blame him for what was left out: a complete list of the 50+ places sampled, what methodology was used (plain bagels always?), discussion of Montreal bagels (discussion of Montreal smoked meat was omitted from the pastrami piece, yet it's inconceivable that Levine is unaware of Montreal's smoked meat and bagel traditions), etc. The one thing I do think can't be excused by editorial limitations is Levine's overall overly positive take on New York bagels. The reality is that the bagel situation in New York is quite dire, and that even the top places are doing things wrong. I know bad news doesn't necessarily sell, but it needs to be said.

I've been wondering if the reson for the Bagels not being as good as they were traditionally is due to the fact that the Bakeries still making Bagels by Hand aren't using the Bagel Bakers Unions secret ingredient that was always incorperated into the Boiling Water Bath.

Until we added this into our bagel bath in Hong Kong we weren't able to produce Bagels New York Stlye in taste or finish, just a little made the magic happen.

This ingredient is something that I feel should only be posted with permission of eGullet if permitted.

Irwin

Sorry to appear as being reticient to post the Secret Ingredient but I just wanted to be sure that this was a regular type of akaline substance okay for usage in modest amounts in Baking.

The ingredient that was kept confidential since the early 1900's ever since the Bagel Bakers Union was founded. As this was pretty much a closed Union from Father to Son that i'm not sure is still in Business since the Automatic Bagel Machine has taken over the Market.

The ingredient added in very small amounts into the Boiling Bagel Water Daily was "Wood Ash" that became known as "LYE".

This was what attributed to th Bagels Coating it's unique taste and finish found no where else then in the major Metro Districts where Bagels were Hand Made.

The Bagel Holes were used as the Bagels were strung on Poles measured for 5 Dozen Bagels with a slit on the poles to Hold the String. Then the Bagels were tied and upon delivery to Grocers, Bakery's, Deli's, and Dairy Stores hung on Doors or placed on Bagel Poles until the customers opened for business.

Ess Guzuntah Heaeth [Eat in Good Health]

Irwin

[cakewalk]

The ingredient added in very small amounts into the Boiling Bagel Water Daily was "Wood Ash" that became known as "LYE".

This was what attributed to th Bagels Coating it's unique taste and finish found no where else then in the major Metro Districts where Bagels were Hand Made.

And is this what gave the bagels that ever-important "crack" upon first bite, which Ed Levine zeroed in on so beautifully?

It is a detail I had completely forgotten, and when I read it in his article it shocked me into remembering. Bagels were hard and crusty, and they cracked when you first bit into them. Of course they did! And they don't do that any more.

[jhlurie]

Apparently Native Americans and Jews have even more in common than the obvious, because I believe wood ash is an ingredient in hominy as well.

[Pan]

Is wood ash in fact the same as lye (NaOH)?

[rshorens]

An ex-Long Islander, now in California, I like to stay at the Beacon Hotel on Broadway near 72nd when I come to New York because I like to get lox and other deli breakfast goodies at Zabars. Without having to travel too far from the Beacon,where would be the closest good bagel place?

Thanks!

Roz

[bloviatrix]

Well, if you follow Ed Levine's advice, as well some here, the easiest and closes place to get to is Absolute Bagel - B'way and 107. Take the 1/9 to either 103rd or 110th.

[Pan]

I got an onion bagel this morning at Moishe's, and I can't recommend it. Not enough onion taste, too doughy. I remember liking their poppy bagel more, though.

[glenn]

So if you were the proprietor of an upscale cafe just across the Hudson, where would you buy your bagels from? Assume the owner doesn't have the time or inclination to go to NYC to pick them up every day.

[danger_doug]

The UES H&H sucks. I like Bagel Express on 94th and 2nd... nice and chewy

[Fresser]

For those of you who don't know, the historical stereotype is that the "West Side Jew" was the poorer immigrant from Eastern Europe (Poland, Russia, Etc.), and the "East Side Jew" was the more affluent immigrant, mostly from Germany. (O.k., I don't mean to start a discussion on that, so if you disagree, let's not fight, it's not important.)

←

These folks were known as Yekkes to the rest of us unscrubbed immigrants.

[Sethro]

My vote goes to H&H.

Its something about the sweetness. I find with Tal all I get is salinity, and I prefer a nice balance. Both H&H and Tal have gret crust, though.