H&H v. Tal

[Pan]

I'm wondering if any of you have had bagels, bialys, or onion rolls from Moishe's on 2nd Av. just south of 7th St. I think their bagels are pretty good and a good value for 40 cents apiece (IIRC), their bialys aren't flavorful enough, and their onion rolls are good.

[wesza]

I grew up loving Bagels learning that almost everyplace that made and sold them had it's own personality. Even as a kid i'd be able to tell where they came from just by the taste. During this period I was familiar with the Bronx, Brooklyn, UWS and LES, Queens and Nasseau County.

When I opened Lindy's in Hong Kong in 1965 I arranged for Rye Breads from Kasanoff's Bakery in Bostom who had been successfull in Freezing Breads as well as a Bagel Bakery in Brookln who was willing to pre bake and freeze Bagels and also Lenders who was becoming established using the new fangled Bagel Forming Machine and was freezing and distributing nationally. Before I even considered Lenders I had the opportunity to observe first hand that they were being served at the Concord Hotel in Kiamisha Lake NY where the Chef Steve had worked for my family at Schenks Paramount in South Fallsburg for 22 years. [now owned by the Chabad]. Both Winerick and Parker advised me that the guests seemed happy with these Lenders Frozen Bagels and they were pleased with the considerable savings.

After opening in Hong Kong it quickly became appearent that I'd have to bake my own Rye Bread and Bagels at the Restaurant in addition to making Corned beef and Pastrami from scratch.

In order to be comfortable doing this I returned to the states and was able to have my Baker friend Dave Horowitz a Master Baker who had been my neighbor in Franklyn Lakes NJ before I relocated to teach me what it required to formulate and bake the Bagels and Rye Breads.

After spending several weeks learning hands on but mostly by observing Rye Bread making at Davids Bakery in East Orange, at the Claremont Diner [where I had worked] and Kasanoff's in Boston I was provided with several Rye Bread starters.

For Bagels it was more intensive physical work, but there was one secret that was universally shared by the best Bagel Bakers that I was sworn to keep confidential. This one step is what I feel was the magic ingredient in the handmade, boiled high heat baked Bagels that were unique to the East Coast.

The most amazing part of the whole process to me was how basic and simple this all was. My Hong Kong Bakers were able to understand the techniques required with no problems.

The most interesting thing was that my customers preferred to think that we were importing the majority of the products we were serving. We continued to charge accordingly even though we made our own Pickles, Mustard, Gefulte Fish, Horeradish, Corned Beef, Pastrami. American Leghorn Eggs, Cheesecakes, Ruggalah, Smoked Salmon all from scratch.

In Seattle it seems that I require a Zabars care package every few months just for Comfort Foods, sometimes i'll alternate with Russ and Daughters or 2nd Avenue Deli but it's the closest I can get to the real thing.

Irwin

[pjs]

My most recent (er... 20 year old) clear memories of Queens bagels (and I'm talking Whitestone and Flushing--you know... the ghetto --not the hoity-toity areas like Great Neck)

Growing up on the border of Nassau County and with most of my family living in Queens we always got our bagels from places in Little Neck, Douglaston or Hollis Hills. Union Turnpike was the Bagel capital of the world. Back in the day I remember these bagels being boiled, they were chewy, dense, and they were more well done then most bagels are today. As far as I am concerned they kicked the crap out of any bagels in NYC today, even the "good" ones.

There was a great bagel shop on Union Turnpike at 260th St. The interior was unpartitioned so you could watch all the stages of prep and baking which was fascinating to this at the time snot-nosed urchin. All they sold until near the point they closed were bagels and bialys and they were never flavored. The bagels however were available topped with salt, garlic, poppy seeds or sesame seeds. They were there in 1960 when we moved to the area and closed down in the second half of the 70's.

I can still remember the amazed look on my Italian-American schoolmate's face when I bought him a still warm one to try.

PJ

Edited December 29, 2003 by pjs (log)

[Pumpkin Lover]

My most recent (er... 20 year old) clear memories of Queens bagels (and I'm talking Whitestone and Flushing--you know... the ghetto

Hey, do you think that quality bagels are still being produced in Flushing? I travel there a lot for dim sum and other Chinese/Malaysian eats. I'd love to know if there are any bagel jewels hiding around out there.

[menton1]

I wonder if this whole Atkins craze means a softening (double ententre?) of bagel sales-- it's amazing that after Atkins passed away, they started a whole new marketing campaign with a new logo as well, and it seems to have taken off. Personally, I'm with the Dean Ornish school of thought, so I will continue to scarf up those bagels!

P.S. Jason, what happened to Truffle? He was a lot cuter than that sandwich!!

[phaelon56]

I don't believe I've tried Ess-a-Bagel but should do so. I've never been that impressed by H&H but I've only tried the ones from the factory by WSH.

It's probably romanticizing a memory of other thigns but on one of my early visits to NYC with a friend who grew up there, we stayed at her dad's place at 79th and Amsterdam (her mom still lived on CPW). There as a place at the corner of 79th that just said "Hot Bagels" on the sign and they were incredible. Then again.... back then you could get a slice of walk-up pizza in any number of places and it was far superior to what is now typically available at most places.

I never get up that way - is the place at 79th and Amsterdam still there?

[elyse]

back then you could get a slice of walk-up pizza in any number of places and it was far superior to what is now typically available at most places.

I'd kill for old NY pizza!

[jhlurie]

My most recent (er... 20 year old) clear memories of Queens bagels (and I'm talking Whitestone and Flushing--you know... the ghetto

Hey, do you think that quality bagels are still being produced in Flushing? I travel there a lot for dim sum and other Chinese/Malaysian eats. I'd love to know if there are any bagel jewels hiding around out there.

It's funny since I joked about Flushing being "the ghetto" (it's not by any means), that I'd think that the only "real" bagels left might be in some even more remote outpost like Flatbush or something.

Then again, Fat Guy says there are little places still squirreled all around, so maybe not.

[Pan]

back then you could get a slice of walk-up pizza in any number of places and it was far superior to what is now typically available at most places.

I'd kill for old NY pizza!

Have you been to DiFara's? Whoops, wrong thread.

[NewYorkTexan]

Growing up on the border of Nassau County and with most of my family living in Queens we always got our bagels from places in Little Neck, Douglaston or Hollis Hills. Union Turnpike was the Bagel capital of the world.

Jason, do you remember the bagel place on the corner of Union Tpk and Chevy Chase (just east of the Hillcrest Jewish Center)? I'm not sure what the name was, except it said "Hot Bagels" on the outside of the shop. We would pick them up every time we visited my Aunt who lived nearby.

Are you talking about that small place had their bagel bins against the front window, causing their windows to be permanently fogged over during the winter months?

One of me fondest childhood memories were cutting classes at HJC Hebrew High School to get a piping hot onion bagel from that place. The bagels were so good…………

I checked a year ago or so and that bagel shop is closed.

[Jason Perlow]

Growing up on the border of Nassau County and with most of my family living in Queens we always got our bagels from places in Little Neck, Douglaston or Hollis Hills. Union Turnpike was the Bagel capital of the world.

Jason, do you remember the bagel place on the corner of Union Tpk and Chevy Chase (just east of the Hillcrest Jewish Center)? I'm not sure what the name was, except it said "Hot Bagels" on the outside of the shop. We would pick them up every time we visited my Aunt who lived nearby.

Are you talking about that small place had their bagel bins against the front window, causing their windows to be permanently fogged over during the winter months?

One of me fondest childhood memories were cutting classes at HJC Hebrew High School to get a piping hot onion bagel from that place. The bagels were so good…………

I checked a year ago or so and that bagel shop is closed.

Yes, thats the one. I was sad to see the place go.

[Stone]

back then you could get a slice of walk-up pizza in any number of places and it was far superior to what is now typically available at most places.

I'd kill for old NY pizza!

Have you been to DiFara's? Whoops, wrong thread.

She's never been to Difaras. She's never been near Difara's. She doesn't know who makes the pizza on saturdays. She doesn't know where they import their mozzerella from.

But we probably should have a thread about the declining quality of NY pizza. I'm seeing more and more Sbarros. Rays (of any incarnation) are becoming massive blocks of dense dough and tasteless cheese. It's a shonder.

Edited December 30, 2003 by Stone (log)

[elyse]

Something I said?

[Pan]

Nah, you're alright.

[OPJK]

For Bagels it was more intensive physical work, but there was one secret that was universally shared by the best Bagel Bakers that I was sworn to keep confidential. This one step is what I feel was the magic ingredient in the handmade, boiled high heat baked Bagels that were unique to the East Coast

Well!?!?! Don't leave us hanging? What was the secret? Is it the baking soda in the boiling water?

[SarahD]

So far, no-one's mentioned the bagel place on Broadway around 107 St. I'm guessing it's still there. I haven't been there in some time but always liked their bagels, and many people compared their softer and probably more flavorful bagels favorably to H&H. And they were a lot cheaper.

My bagel of choice these days. Location, location, location.

Oh for the days of the $0.15 H&H bagel. There was nothing better than a rasin bagel fresh from the oven. I used to be able to get lunch with the redeemed deposits on soda cans accumulated in my locker. *sigh*

[cdh]

So far, no-one's mentioned the bagel place on Broadway around 107 St. I'm guessing it's still there. I haven't been there in some time but always liked their bagels, and many people compared their softer and probably more flavorful bagels favorably to H&H. And they were a lot cheaper.

You're talking about Absolute Bagels? An old favorite from my Columbia days... much better than Columbia Bagels, and worth the extra couple of blocks walk down Bway.

[pjs]

Ed Levine's piece is now up on the NYTimes site. Someone start a thread in Media.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/31/dining/3...ml?pagewanted=1

I'm busy sauteing a chicken.

PJ

Edited December 31, 2003 by pjs (log)

[Pan]

I really enjoyed that article! The ending is the best part:

I'm begrudgingly willing to let cinnamon-raisin into the bagel pantheon, and certainly pumpernickel, even "everything."

But if God had wanted sun-dried tomatoes put into bagels, he would have put more bagel bakers in Italy.

[Jason Perlow]

Here's another interesting note about a type of old school bagel in NJ, now nearly extinct:

http://www.virtualnewarknj.com/memories/we...bodianbagel.htm

[bloviatrix]

I really enjoyed that article! The ending is the best part:

I'm begrudgingly willing to let cinnamon-raisin into the bagel pantheon, and certainly pumpernickel, even "everything."

But if God had wanted sun-dried tomatoes put into bagels, he would have put more bagel bakers in Italy.

Pan, I'm total agreement with you.

After reading the piece, and the comments here, I'm going to have to take a walk uptown to Absolute Bagels.

[Pan]

Enjoy!

[Fat Guy]

I thought Ed Levine did a very good job on this piece. I wonder what editorial constraints he was operating under -- it seemed a bit short given the scope of the investigation so I'm reluctant to blame him for what was left out: a complete list of the 50+ places sampled, what methodology was used (plain bagels always?), discussion of Montreal bagels (discussion of Montreal smoked meat was omitted from the pastrami piece, yet it's inconceivable that Levine is unaware of Montreal's smoked meat and bagel traditions), etc. The one thing I do think can't be excused by editorial limitations is Levine's overall overly positive take on New York bagels. The reality is that the bagel situation in New York is quite dire, and that even the top places are doing things wrong. I know bad news doesn't necessarily sell, but it needs to be said.

[wesza]

I thought Ed Levine did a very good job on this piece. I wonder what editorial constraints he was operating under -- it seemed a bit short given the scope of the investigation so I'm reluctant to blame him for what was left out: a complete list of the 50+ places sampled, what methodology was used (plain bagels always?), discussion of Montreal bagels (discussion of Montreal smoked meat was omitted from the pastrami piece, yet it's inconceivable that Levine is unaware of Montreal's smoked meat and bagel traditions), etc. The one thing I do think can't be excused by editorial limitations is Levine's overall overly positive take on New York bagels. The reality is that the bagel situation in New York is quite dire, and that even the top places are doing things wrong. I know bad news doesn't necessarily sell, but it needs to be said.

I've been wondering if the reson for the Bagels not being as good as they were traditionally is due to the fact that the Bakeries still making Bagels by Hand aren't using the Bagel Bakers Unions secret ingredient that was always incorperated into the Boiling Water Bath.

Until we added this into our bagel bath in Hong Kong we weren't able to produce Bagels New York Stlye in taste or finish, just a little made the magic happen.

This ingredient is something that I feel should only be posted with permission of eGullet if permitted.

Irwin

[Jason Perlow]

Aright Irwin, no need to keep us in suspense.