Corporate America - Can it be stopped?

[pork]

I joined this board a few days ago, mostly to read the backstory behind the Washington post article on the Bayless/BK debacle. Particularly on reading bourdain's comments on the evil empire I found myself nodding my head, as I have similar feelings toward fast food, chain shitholes like Applebees, and warning labels.

However, I wanted to expand on that a tad, because my frustration with this crap goes beyond food. I cannot stand to be inside a Best Buy for more than five minutes before I want to strangle someone. Ditto Home Depot. Ditto Lowes. Ditto Walmart.

Just as BK slaps chunk of chicken devoid of individuality and a ton of salt on white bread and calls it 'santa fe cuisine' the rest of america is eating a collective shit sandwich in retail, in entertainment, in education, everywhere. People are knocking each other over for a $39 dvd player from walmart that will undoubtedly break within a year. Why? How has the american consumer become such a fucking braindead arsehole?

I have to drive 40 minutes to get to a local hardware store in a small town still out of the crushing power of the american megachains. I just can't take it. Nobody at home depot knows anything about tools, construction, electrical work, plumbing, or supplies. They might as well be working at a post office, for all their knowledge of the contents of the boxes on the shelves.

Beyond that, I cannot seem to buy products at those places that aren't the flimsiest pieces of imported chinese-slave-labor-made shit. Even the 'higher end' products there are hideously cheap shit, just with one more molecule of electroplated finish over the same piece of shit.

Just as I have no intention of trying Applebees®Jack Daniels®Riblets©®(SM), I don't want to be forced to buy this crap either!

My intent for this thread is to (I hope) discuss these two things:

How did this start?

How can we stop it?

Question 1 may provide a little insight into the problem, and help us find the answer to number 2. I don't have a good answer for it though. Let's jump to #2.

Tony said, with regard to question 2, in the area of food:

"Real change" in this case, will--if it ever occurs--be the result of a general change in perception not of a change in policy.

The outcome will be decided in the media, on the web, on a person by person basis across the world. If it's settled at all. In the end, it's about one individual after another deciding " You know? I just don't want to eat this shit again!"

How do we educate our "Santa Fe Baguette" -eating brethren that this is not the way to live!

Could this be attacked from the top down? I know the CEOs of these megacorps are paid exorbitant bonuses for shaving that last quarter-percent off the bottom line...could that be attacked somehow?

The television is a whole separate topic..but it's related. God I cannot stand to watch commercial television. Every time a commercial comes on I find myself yelling at the television "I AM NOT FUCKING STUPID!" Why doesn't everyone? Why do these people do it? They are programmed by this gadget to buy all this crap, and to take another four hours of brainwashing the next day! "Programming" has never been a more apt description of the content of the idiot box.

I pay extra for quality ingredients in my cooking. I pay extra for quality cookware. I pay extra for quality television (HBO). (Quick aside, god PLEASE let t. bourdain get a HBO contract for "Cook's tour." Uncensored, unfettered...it would be fucking fabulous..) I don't mind. The american public hated the 'yugo' because it was a cheap piece of shit. Why don't they know that about 90% of the stock on the shelves at wal-mart?

Final thought:

"Mickey D--friendly clown? Or destoyer of worlds?" IS a fairly serious issue--and one that's going to get more and more prominently discussed.

Indeed. Let the discussion begin here.

Edited December 6, 2003 by pork (log)

[fresco]

Is it possible that as far as Wal Mart is concerned, we are at the extreme end of a pendulum swing? This retailer is now No. 1 in Canada, the US and Mexico (and indeed, is credited with helping to dampen down the inflation rate in Mexico.)

McDonalds, Burger King and other fast food giants have, it seems, already reached their limits and are in decline.

I suspect that what has already happened with beer will also happen (and is happening) with food--Budweiser in the US, Molson and Labatt in Canada, and doubtless others abroad reached their limits, enough people got sick of a generic product and craft brewers started up. Has there been another time in the past 100 years when there has been such variety of good beer so widely available?

It's also worth noting that probably never in history has there been such a variety of food generally available. Some of it is crap, but some is excellent. When I go into a supermarket in a fairly small community and find fresh basil and other herbs, as well as a pretty good array of meat, fish and produce, I consider it somewhat akin to miraculous.

[hjshorter]

If the corporations are "stopped," where will all of the people they currently employ work?

I pay extra for quality ingredients in my cooking. I pay extra for quality cookware. I pay extra for quality television (HBO). ...I don't mind. The american public hated the 'yugo' because it was a cheap piece of shit. Why don't they know that about 90% of the stock on the shelves at wal-mart?

Because they can't afford to pay extra? Look at the success of Super Target, Super Wal-Mart, Safeway, etc. People shop there because they are affordable, and they are affordable because the chains can buy in large quantities, which gives them greater negotiating power.

As far as packaged food goes, I don't think convenience food is going to disappear until the return of the full-time homemaker. And based on my observations that ain't gonna be anytime soon.

Edited December 6, 2003 by hjshorter (log)

[Fat Guy]

Interesting topic, and hope we'll be able to focus on the food aspects of the above, since eGullet is decidedly not the forum in which generalized issues of "Corporate America, Pro or Con?" are going to be settled.

I think ultimately the answer is no, corporate America can't be stopped -- nor should we wish to stop it. The train has left the station on that one. The issue is how to channel the incredible productive energy of corporate America towards producing good food.

My belief is that it's a cultural issue. Corporate America will respond to and provide what consumers want. Unfortunately, consumers in America are not particularly demanding about what they eat. If that can be changed, corporate America will adapt.

[Claire]

Man was born free and everywhere he is in chains--stores.

The only way to stop it is to choose. Choose to be aware. Choose not to buy in. Choose not to sell out. Choose not to patronize. Choose not to consume. Choose not to feed the monster. Choose change. Even a small change is still change indeed.

[Mayhaw Man]

My intent for this thread is to (I hope) discuss these two things:

How did this start?

How can we stop it?

Good questions. This could take a while (and we will never get to the bottom of it in the limited bandwith provided by the nice people at egullet

As far as North America goes I believe that part of the answer is as follows:

1) Until the end of WWI this country was completely divided into two parts, urban dwellers and rural/farming communities. They were stuck in their respective areas by lack of an efficient transportation system (roads, which were primarily bad and unpaved until the 1930s) and the fact that most people had no need to leave the immediate area where they lived. Families were not nearly as spread out and people tended to stay in the situations they were born into (geographically anyway).

These communities provided shopping and dining opportunities to their citizens and generally these services were provided by citizens of the same communities. Family businesses, small stores, and the like were the rule and not the exception. In most cases an individual had a choice (to some degree) about the quality of goods that he wished to purchase and how much he wished to spend. There were exceptions, even that long ago, such as Sears and Roebuck and Montgomery Wards (and I am sure that, even then, this subject was being hotly debated by local shop owners pissed off when the train rolled into town in rural communities and the mail order freight was unloaded).

With the increasing mechanization of farming and the advent of the industrial boom brought on by (and continuing after) WWII many people left rural America for a bigger paycheck and a better, more comfortable lifestyle. Since many of the inner cities were already full, these people had to find alternative places to live and that led to the advent of Suburbia. Affordable houses for middle class people pretty much defines suburbia. And since there was no real "culture" involved in Levittown and it's offspring, places like Sears, JC Penney's and others thrived. They carried everything and the names of the stores were vaguely familiar and the prices were good, so people were happy to shop there. On top of all of that these venues offered "easy credit" which previous to that had only been available to purchasers of big ticket items like automobiles (don't get me started on the history of Ford Motor Credit and GMAC and Chrysler Acceptance, I might never shut up ).

Once people became able to get to a big central shopping area like a Shopping Center, strip mall, or eventually the Supermall, they were able to begin shopping in stores that were being driven by national competition and huge purchasing power, providing lower prices (and, without argument, a generally lower quality of goods) to everyone willing to take the trouble to travel a bit to shop.

I have said all of this (admittedly I have not mentioned food, but I am getting to it) to set up this point-With all of the mobility that came available in the latter half of the twentieth century the one thing that people craved (as people always will and have) is a sense of sameness. McDonald's, with it's Golden Arches, and others like McDonalds provided that in a fairly unique way. EVERYTHING was exactly the same from store to store. And, not so suprisingly thanks to their success, everything on the road around the McDonalds (or at the mall of any other example you care to come up with) came to look the same too. For example, excepting extreme weather differences, there is no difference between suburban Memphis and suburban Philadelphia. People on the move in society will always go for the safe choice (and that is certainly not always the best) because it is what they know.

Wal Mart is perhaps the biggest example of this and they have filled their roll brilliantly. Wal Mart was so good at what they did that they put the first round of suburban stores completely out of business. All over my part of America (rural South, where Wal Mart started) Wal Mart has killed downtowns and put local people out of business. But, remember, Wal Mart only (at least initially, when people still had a choice between local and national) provided the opportunity. Local people were the ones not choosing to shop with their old friends the local shopkeepers. Towns could have stood up and said "Hell no, we're not putting our old neighbors and friends out of business" but they did not. Apparently in our consumer society the pocketbook outweighs the heft of loyalty.

That, in my opinion, is how it started.

I believe that part two has already been answered nicely by Fresco. I think many of these businesses have reached a peak and while I am not naive enough to believe that it will change dramatically overnight, I do think that one benefit to all of this standardization is that, as Fresco nicely stated, companies wishing to compete with Wal Mart HAVE to offer better choices. They certainly aren't going to beat Wally World on price. Hell, Wal Mart did 1.5 BILLION dollars worth of business in a four day span after Thanksgiving. Their annual revenue makes them (using gross revenue as GNP) one of the largest countries in the world.

The only way that any business can compete with WM or McDonalds is to offer better, more interesting choices at a price point that makes them a profit, but is still attractive to the consumer who is looking for something better than the standard (which these outlets have become). Many grocery stores are now moving into specialty items that have been previously unavailable to anyone but people who can shop in ethnic shops. People are starting to understand that getting real meat from a real butcher shop not only provides you with a better cut of meat and way better service, but you also get what you pay for (as opposed to "This product has 10% water and or polysorbate added to give it the fresh shiny look that consumers have come to expect in their soylent green).

I love grocery shopping these days and I have Wal Mart to thank for it. I guarantee that 20 years ago I would not be able to walk into Rouse's Family Market (an excellent South Louisiana chain) and buy fresh nopales and mangos. Nope. Not here. Twenty years ago it was apples, bananas and plums. There is now a huge array of things that are great to eat and good for you that would have never existed if these stores were it not for their need to provide a hook that sets them apart from Megelomart (I love Hank Hill ). I know for a fact that most stores that are thriving (no matter how much they whine about Wal Mart and the like) are doing so offering better choices. These choices may cost a little more, but many people are willing to paythe extra change for the fresh, delicious, goodness of quality groceries and prepared foods.

Therefore I don't believe that it can be stopped, but I can believe that this process can be dramatically slowed and even reversed (to a degree) by informed consumers who are looking for value and not just low prices and something to get by with.

Thanks for your patience with this long post. I have to cut it short and go to work now. You are safe

Edited to get this thing back on the food track, as I had strayed a bit and I don't want my rambling incomplete history of twentieth century migration in the US to raise the ire of Sr. Fat Guy.

[pork]

Thanks! I understand that the intent of this site is to focus on the food, I just thought that in this case, the food is one of many symptoms. I thought this community would be a good place for the discussion because many here have the prediliction toward not buying crap products and would see the similarity.

I think ultimately the answer is no, corporate America can't be stopped -- nor should we wish to stop it. The train has left the station on that one. The issue is how to channel the incredible productive energy of corporate America towards producing good food.

I agree, I am not an advocate of anarchy or anything. I would just like to see the ressurection of the local merchant selling a quality product, in the area of food, in home furnishings, everywhere.

My belief is that it's a cultural issue. Corporate America will respond to and provide what consumers want. Unfortunately, consumers in America are not particularly demanding about what they eat. If that can be changed, corporate America will adapt.

Agreed. My question is how can that be changed?

If the corporations are "stopped," where will all of the people they currently employ work?

At the same places. Just with different ownership structures, or diffent management techniques, or whatever it takes to make the experience of going to those places not suck?

I pay extra for ...

Because they can't afford to pay extra? 

I can't either, really...I just choose to have fewer things of better quality. I don't have a LCD monitor. I don't have a PS2, I don't have truffle oil, I don't have a motorcyle. I don't have a lot of the things I would like to have because I choose to have fewer, higher-quality things.

I'm not saying all of these things need to disappear, I just want the American consumer to look a little less like a schmuck.

Claire, I'm trying....trust me.

[pork]

Is it possible that as far as Wal Mart is concerned, we are at the extreme end of a pendulum swing? ...what has already happened with beer will also happen ...enough people got sick of a generic product

god I hope so. Also agreed on the availability of ingredients. It is fantastic.

[pork]

Good questions. This could take a while (and we will never get to the bottom of it in the limited bandwith provided by the nice people at egullet

Fantastic reply, thanks. Puts my whining in perspective. You are right...I think the emergence of the availability of these things is a definite light at the end of the tunnel.

[Nick]

Some questions. Do you suppose that senior corporate management actually shop at the stores selling their food? Do they know where the "food" they're selling came from and how it was grown? (A recent example would be scallions and less recent would be the many recalls of ground beef that has numbered in the hundreds of thousands of pounds, if not millions.) Since, presumably, these corporate types don't shop at their own stores, how are they to know what is going on beyond the bottom line? It is not their worry, they live in gated communities and estates. Whether the chicken livers are fit to eat or the brussels sprouts are well beyond their prime is not their concern. So long as these things can be bought and sold for a profit is their concern. Quality, freshness, and the people's health is not - except in stores where people demand that. As FG has noted, "Unfortunately, consumers in America are not particularly demanding about what they eat." And there is the crux of the problem; whether it's a Walmart selling cheap goods or a "supermarket" selling the lowest common denominator of what passes for food.

This is a good topic and I have no idea what to do to change course - but, if the health of the people is of any concern we should give this some consideration. It's not merely a matter of taste but I'd say a matter of health. How much has this current trend in "eating" contributed to skyrocketing problems in "health care" and the associated costs? We have on the one hand, the corporate types running the health insurance industry and, on the other hand, corporate types who's desire is to sell people food that is good for the bottom line, but is not necessarily healthy. A true conundrum.

Thanks for bringing this up Pork.

[Mayhaw Man]

Some questions. Do you suppose that senior corporate management actually shop at the stores selling their food?

As someone who was at The University of Arkansas in the late 70s and early 80s I know something of the corporate culture that developed around Wal Mart. I watched it develop and know many people who have spent their whole working lives in Springdale at Wal Mart Central.

Yes, they absolutely shop in their own stores. Those people are fanatically (and I am not using the word fanatic lightly) loyal (I am talking middle and upper management here). They honestly believe (wrongly) that their corporate focus of lower prices all of the time no matter what is great for America.

I can make a long argument (no suprise there ) about why this is not good for America in general or the employees of Wal Mart specifically, but I believe the reasons are pretty self evident.

[Toliver]

On "Black Friday" (the Friday after Thanksgiving where everyone in America seems to go out looking for a bargain or start their Christmas shopping), Wal Mart stores reportedly did about $1.5 BILLION dollars in business. In one day.

Sounds like an uphill battle...

[kellycolorado]

Pork, I feel similarly. When I moved out here to suburban sprawl CO a few years ago, I first ate at an Applebees on our house hunting trip, and boy was it uninspired and overpriced. I joke to my husband that it symbolizes to me all that is wrong with chain restaurants. He is quite sick of my little rants whenever we pass one.

About the popularity of the Walmarts and such, I think that the majority of people are going to shop where they get the best prices or the most convenience (such as a "super mart" where they can get it all in one stop). Also, the majority of people in the US don't have very good taste. (ducks)

Fortunately, I think there are at the same time some great movements with farmer's markets, supporting the small grocers and more demand for quality/organic foods going on around the country. I just wish I knew more people in real life who cared about quality food.

[fresco]

I wonder if a big reason for the success of Wal Mart and others who sell not so good stuff (including food) very cheaply is that the purchasing power of the average person has been badly eroded and consumers are responding by flocking to those places where their dollar stretches the most?

It's rational, albeit short sighted behaviour, because collectively, their decisions help to drive down wages, not just at the places they shop, but across the board as competitors cut costs to stay in business. And ultimately, it does make jobs disappear much more quickly than they otherwise would have, I suspect.

Tough issue, because the individual benefits are evident, while the responsibility for the harm is diffuse.

[kellycolorado]

Also, I think people in this country are used to their food budget (especially non restaurant) being a much small percentage of their income than many places in western Europe for example.

My neice had wheat and dairy allergies which she outgrew, but my sister in law was appalled at the prices at Whole Foods for non packaged foods needed to cook from scratch ( they didn't have any indie grocers so made trips to the health food stores). She was so happy when she could eat packaged goods again... back to the Easy Mac and Spaghetti-Os!

It's just mind boggling to me...

[fresco]

Absolutely correct. Although comparisons are tough, because Europeans generally enjoy much more generous vacations, pensions, benefits and are prepared for some tradeoffs. But think Americans and Canadians pay about 10 per cent of their wages for food, which is, by world standards, extremely low.

[Pan]

Also, I think people in this country are used to their food budget (especially non restaurant) being a much small percentage of their income than many places in western Europe for example.

Probably because we pay much more on health care, and presumably education, and get less generous social welfare benefits of all kinds.

[Fat Guy]

The Europeans seem hell-bent on copying the US food-distribution formula, both in terms of fast-food chain-type restaurants and in terms of supermarkets. In part that's because they've had their own cultural collapse. It seems almost quaint these days to read about the French love of terroir and farming and grandmother's cooking -- it's rapidly becoming a niche market these days, with the younger generation not particularly interested in all that. The Hypermarche and McDonald's have displaced many local purveyors in France, just as in the US.

And that's not all bad. As Mayhaw indicates, competition has made the surviving small purveyors perform better. Let's face it, especially in the US, the small local purveyors were performing so poorly it's no wonder the big supermarkets drew all the customers away ala What's Eating Gilbert Grape. I certainly don't buy into the fantasy of those old mom-and-pop stores being any good, just as the mom-and-pop bookstores generally sucked compared to Barnes & Noble. It's easy to wax nostalgic for something you don't actually have to endure or pay for anymore.

If, however, you go to a hypermarche in France you'll most likely be struck by how much better it is than the average large US supermarket. In the US, only the very best places like Wegmans are competing at that level, whereas every small city in France seems to have two or three of them. The cheeses, the charcuterie, the wine selection -- it all proves that the same types of corporations that provide crummy food now can just as easily provide good food if that's what consumers want.

As for how to create that kind of demand among consumers, well, there are direct and indirect methods. Direct methods include the kind of consciousness-raising we practice here on eGullet every day, such as calling Rick Bayless to task for his hypocritical sellout behavior. But ultimately, I think it gets back to "family values," in the sense of trying to recapture the model of the family sitting together around the dinner table, eating home-cooked food. Today, perhaps it will no longer be a housewife preparing the food -- and that's great. The family is different now. But the old traditions can still be brought back, in new forms, in order to inculcate an appreciation for food among children, who will then grow up to be more European in their food attititudes.

I actually credit the Food Network -- middlebrow as it is -- with making some progress on the food front as well. Kids these days are much more interested in food as a result of Food TV. Lots of teens watch it, and though I'd very much like to see better programming it does seem to be having some impact on the upcoming generation.

[Pan]

You make an important point, Fat Guy. Hypermarches in France are great. This is probably even more true of the Supermercati in Italy. Fresh, vine-ripened fruit, good local wines, fine jarred products of the type that would be available only in gourmet stores in much of the U.S.

[fresco]

The Europeans seem hell-bent on copying the US food-distribution formula, both in terms of fast-food chain-type restaurants and in terms of supermarkets.

That may be true of the French--don't know--but the supermarkets in the UK are ahead of most of their North American competitors in terms of the products they offer.

[Fat Guy]

European supermarkets are on the whole better than US supermarkets. That's true in France, Italy, the UK, and most everywhere else. (Though as I mentioned there are US chains like Wegmans that are excellent, and also stores like Fairway that come across as quite impressive to many Europeans.)

What I'm speaking of is the form of the business: in all those European countries, the big-business supermarkets are putting the mom-and-pop places out of business. So in terms of the question, "Can corporate creep be stopped," I think the answer is no, unless you want to have the Russian Revolution or Mao or whatever awful alternative du jour might present itself. And I think the other part of the answer is that the hypermarches and supermercati and Wegman's and Fairway prove that there's absolutely nothing inherent in the corporate form of organization that prevents the distribution and provision of great food, and the a well-managed corporation can do it better and cheaper than mom and pop, bringing a dizzying array of fresh foods everywhere at fair prices.

The human brain is an amazing calculator, and every person who shops in a supermarket performs a variety of calculations about what products to buy. In the US, because the consumer is so often food-ignorant, the brain-calculator has a massive bias towards perceived convenience and low cost as the determining factors. But if consumers here started buying, say, a better class of cheese, you'd all of a sudden find a lot less generic bulk cheese and an expanded selection of cheese at the next level up. The companies that run these supermarkets totally don't give a crap what they sell; all they care is whether or not people will buy it. That's both a problem and a solution.

I also think one has to look at the US as being not exactly the same as Europe for reasons other than culture. For example, North America (the US and Canada at least, which for the purposes of this discussion are pretty much culturally contiguous) is a big place. Distribution here is much more challenging than in most parts of Europe. Nonetheless, the US supermarket chains have done a terrific job of establishing outposts even pretty deep into the frontier. And those outposts are slowly getting better: every time I drive cross-country, I see more Parmigiano-Reggiano in the most unlikely places, and it gets easier to get salad ingredients in Yennevelt. Not that this is always the best stuff, but at least it's not coming out of cans for 10 months out of the year. The next logical step is, of course, to move away from industrial apples and iceberg lettuce and towards a better class of produce. The infrastructure to move it around is finally in place here, so I think we can close the deal if the demand can be generated.

[Mayhaw Man]

European supermarkets are on the whole better than US supermarkets. That's true in France, Italy, the UK, and most everywhere else. (Though as I mentioned there are US chains like Wegmans that are excellent, and also stores like Fairway that come across as quite impressive to many Europeans.)

Don't forget Central Market. I had a couple of Dutch guests, very well traveled, who got back home and told me that of all of the reccomendations I gave them for things to do in Texas and Louisiana, Central Market (the main one) was their favorite place that they visited. It is, in fact, pretty amazing.

[fresco]

I agree with a lot of what your are saying. But leadership at the supermarket level can also have amazing results.

It's often been said that people don't know what they want until they see it, and there's much truth to that. In Canada the Loblaw chain has pretty well singlehandedly created enormous markets for balsamic vinegar, extra virgin olive oil and dozens of other "premium" or at least exotic products. They sourced them, promoted the hell out of them, and because they commanded so much shelf space, they sold a ton of these products.

Oh, and in the process, they almost singlehandedly created an enormous premium private label market that all of their competitors were forced to match.

I'm not sure if this would be possible in the US, because it is such an enormous market, and no one player has such clout.

[Fat Guy]

I certainly agree with that: demand isn't just the shallow measure of what people know they want; at a more sophisticated level it's also a measure of where people can be led. For example, you can be sure that Loblaw's didn't push for that new market without first collecting data (test marketing at a single store, focus groups, whatever) that indicated they could possibly penetrate into that new market profitably. To me, that's a species of responding to demand -- or to potential demand. I suppose it's all semantics, but even when corporations "create demand" and "provide leadership" they're doing so in response to what their research tells them the consumer will do when presented with certain choices. The consumer remains the fundamental variable in that equation, even when a corporation is exceptionally proactive.

In a lot of US towns -- the ones that are big enough to have multiple supermarkets -- you also see a split between "the fancy supermarket" and "the cheap supermarket." But even the cheap supermarkets seem to have improved a lot in the past decade. One challenge we face here, though, is creating a retail and cultural environment where good food is for everyone, not just the people on the right side of the tracks.

[fresco]

In all probability, yes, they did a ton of market research. What has impressed me is that not too many years ago Loblaws was in danger of extinction--shitty stores, declining market share, no direction.

A new generation of ownership came in, brought in smart, talented people who were passionate about food, and the chain (and all of its many subsidiaries) are now disproportionately profitable. Maybe a lot of places underestimate their customers. Or maybe their market research sucks.