Cities We Love, Cities We Hate

[Fat Guy]

You need to drop everything you're doing and go to Graceland right away. There are no words to describe the experience.

I've got nothing against religious fundamentalists. Sure they take themselves a bit too seriously but they've always been nice to me, and in fact, whatever their motives, they're the only demographic group I can think of that treats you nicer when you tell them you're Jewish. When we were in North Carolina recently we were invited to a Christian rock concert and we had a great time there, and I especially love visiting places like the prayer tower at ORU in Tulsa.

And monster trucks? Forget about it! I love them. NASCAR too. (America's most popular spectator sport is stock car racing, for those of you who live under a rock.)

[Jinmyo]

America's most popular spectator sport is stock car racing, for those of you who live under a rock.

Oh. That's a rock. No wonder my back hurts.

Watching people...drive...cars?

[Lesley C]

I think you can really only enjoy and understand Paris if you speak French very well or if you are there with a Parisian. I love France, Paris especially, but I’ve seen the same French waiter who was very nice to me, treat American tourists like dirt. And I’ve seen this often. Also, I don’t know many French people who are wild about Americans.

On the flip side, I find I dislike England more and more. Lately I’ve run into the rudest people in England. I seem to meet a large number of snotty men who drive little sports cars, and silicone-enhanced bleached blondes who carry on in “Nigella speak” (everything is either “brilliant” or “genius”). I’ll take a cute French waiter, pastry chef or butcher any day over that.

When it comes to the States, New York and Boston are my favourite cities. I’ve rarely met an unfriendly American. What shocks me about Americans though is how little they know about Canada. I once had a woman in South Carolina ask me very seriously if there were polar bears in Montreal (a charming French chef once asked me if there were penguins in my back yard, but somehow it didn’t bother me as much).

;)

[Jinmyo]

Here in Ottawa in July our favourite spectator sport is watching Mounties throw penguins to the polar bears. Sometimes the grizzlies get them though and we have to go into overtime. The penguins just hate that.

[Tonyfinch]

There's an article in today's (Friday Feb.15th) The Guardian(UK) about dog cuisine in Korea vizthis Summer's World Cup(football,not"soccer",that is.)  When the reporter protests that we (ie "the West) don't eat dog because they're"cute" and have a "personality" the  Korean dog gourmet replies that that's because dogs want to "fool" us into disbelieving how good they are to eat.

Bit of a culture clash there ,no?

[Liza]

Perhaps there's a correlation between cities that rely on tourists and the rudeness of the city dwellers.

[tommy]

I think you can really only enjoy and understand Paris if you speak French very well or if you are there with a Parisian. I love France, Paris especially, but I’ve seen the same French waiter who was very nice to me, treat American tourists like dirt. And I’ve seen this often. Also, I don’t know many French people who are wild about Americans.

the first time i went to paris, people warned me. "they are going to hate you".  "be ready for rudeness".  "they hate americans".

my first thought was "if it wasn't for us, they'd be speaking german."  i decided to take a more civilized approach though.

i learned a few phrases of french.  namely "i don't not speak french".  "do you know english".  "please".  "thank you".  "where is".

in 100% of the cases where i had to communicate, i attempted to speak french.  i think this would immediately lighten the tone of the transaction, as it was probably very comical to listen to me speak french.  at any rate, i found that just about every parisian was more than happy to help me after i'd made an attempt to speak french, and in a nice way.

i liken this to the fact that if someone runs up to me in NYC, yelling a language other than english, i'm put off, and basically ignore them.  however, if they approach me with respect, attempt to ask their question in the best way they know, i'm more than happy to help.

one quick story of our first dinner in paris:  we were handed the menus and were looking them over.  we couldn't read very many words at all.   i stealthy pulled out my little translation book, making very sure no one saw me (i wouldn't want to be pegged as a stupid american you know ;) ), when suddenly our waiter's head appeared resting on my shoulder from behind me.  i utter to mrs. tommy "um, um, um".  she finally looks up and sees this gentleman's head coming out of my shoulder as if i had just sprouted a second.  the gentleman said, in perfect english, with that smooth french accent, "would you like a menu in English".  well we were relieved and had a grand ol time with this guy.  he told us he learned english from watching soap operas.  it was one of the best (fun-wise) dinners we had there.

[stellabella]

Steven, I am afraid you might think I have no sense of humor.  In fact, I do.  And can I ask you, where do you live?  And you are Jewish?

Come visit me in Morgan County, Georgia.  There are no Jews here, and if you make your Judaism known here, these people won't be nice to you.  Because, honey, once they find out you already belong to some other "pretend church," they're done with you.  We had a letter to the editor in our local paper last week blaming the NAACP for the oppression of whites in this country and the demise of Southern culture.  A riot!

When I was 12 I used to work in a concession stand selling burgers at the Atomic Speedway outside Knoxville.  I used to like to watch the demolition derby.  Once I saw a car go right over the wall.  For 20 minutes we wondered if the driver were alive or dead.  

I am an elitist, if one defines elitist as a person who believes that some ways of being are superior to others.  So I have stopped shopping at any store that ends in -Mart.  It is simply too depressing.  Don't get me wrong.  I love where I live, but I am also steeped in it.  I think Simon's original point about how we are always fascinated by what is different from what we know is true in this case.  There's dumbness everywhere, isn't there?

[Fat Guy]

Stellabella: I've never been to a demolition derby, but I have seen the WWF, rodeo, and NASCAR. People get hurt, it's true, but they get hurt playing football and baseball too. And the spectacles themselves are great fun. I'm Jewish, I live in Manhattan, and I've traveled quite a bit in the South. I don't make a secret of my religion and most people upon hearing I'm from New York assume I'm Jewish anyway. Of course the poor white trash everywhere hate the Jews and the blacks and everyone else, but my experience with hardline Christian fundamentalists has been that they are polite, pro-Israel, and inclined to be friendly to Jews as being part of the second-best religion after fundamentalist Protestantism. Certainly, the ones I've met vastly prefer us to the Catholics. Perhaps it's because they just want to keep us around until the end of days so we can be converted, but no matter, I feel a lot more comfortable in a hardcore Baptist community in the South than I do in rural New England, or even rural Canada (and of course most anywhere in Europe). In general, if forced to choose between being surrounded by fundamentalist Christians and being surrounded by atheists, I'll take the fundamentalists.

Wilfrid: Where did you go? What I wanted to say was that I don't think Vancouver is inherently more interesting than Paris. Of course it isn't. But Paris is like a restaurant with fabulous food and lousy service. I already live in a restaurant with almost-as-fabulous food and good service, so when I go to other restaurants I prefer the ones that have pretty good food and great service.

[jhlurie]

Fat Guy:  plus in rural New England you have to put up with people telling you: "ya can't get theah from heah"...

stellabella:  people from NY love stores which end in "Mart"

[Fat Guy]

Also "Wiggly" and "Teeter."

[Sandra Levine]

Tommy, I couldn't agree with you more.   During my first trip to Paris, alone and single, I was so intimidated that I could barely croak out a word in French, and did not have a good time.

Years later, my husband, Alan, was at first reluctant to go to Paris because of all the usual cliched reasons stated above by previous posters.  After much cajoling, I convinced him to give it a try.  

Feeling more confident the second time around,  I decided to put to use the vast food vocabulary drilled into me by a French teacher in college who was determined to make my class capable of reading a menu, if nothing else.  Once we were there, we took note of a few cultural differences and adjusted our behavior accordingly.  

We now play a game when we go to Paris: blending in as much as possible.  We win when a French person asks us for directions in French...and we are able to respond correctly.  

Some tips on having pleasant interactions with Parisians:

Appearance:

Parisians take clothing and grooming as seriously as food.

They love their beautiful city, and tend to feel that sloppily dressed people (by their high standards) are probably too boorish to appreciate it.  

Dress more formally than you might on vacation in the U.S.

For men, this used to mean wearing a jacket and tie, but standards have loosened somewhat.  You still need to pull yourself together, though, without sneakers, which are worn only for active sports.

For women, the key is grooming,  accessories and tasteful make-up.

Manners:

Certain rituals of politeness are expected, as distinct from true courtesy, although attention to the former on the part of the traveler may lead to the receipt of the latter from the locals.  

"Bonjour," is not enough when greeting someone.  It is necessary to add the appropriate honorific, i.e. "Bonjour, Madame."  When entering a store or restaurant, if you say, Bonjour, Madame or Monsieur you will be treated much differently by the owner. Merci and s'il vous plait are also magical words -- also to be followed by Madame or Monsieur.

We have had people walk us to our destination when they felt we had not understood their directions.  Once, at the restaurant, A Souseyrac, the people at the table adjacent to us heard us talking in English about the dfference between foie gras and pate de foie gras and gave us a taste of each from their own order to help us make up our minds!  

The French have a love-hate relationship with the U.S., whose popular culture they embrace and revile at the same time. If you express admiration and curiosity about French culture (and why else would you be there?) you will be rewarded.

[Jinmyo]

Certainly if you show an interest and ask questions, allowing yourself to be educated, the French get all paternal over you.

[Peter B Wolf]

Now, this is funny: during the first time in Paris for me, I simply tried to speak broken English with a French accent. Got me every where. I love doing that anyway, put the accent of the country you are in, onto any language you speak and they love you. You know, how actors speak in the movies when depicting another nationality, and try to speak English?! Could some times be troublesome, spoke English in Hells Kitchen in the late nineteenfifties with that "Kraut" JaaH! Good thing there was a cab.

[cat lancaster]

having known someone who died of this disease ( Rabies, that is ) and knowing someone who is currently undergoing treatment after being bitten by a dog in Paris ( 20 injections in the stomach - ouch! ) I fully support the policy of our otherwise execrable governmet

S

Your friend is going through 20 injections to the stomach for rabies *now*??  That treatment went out the window 15 or more years ago!  I was bite by a rabid cat in 1983, and even back then they no longer did the stomach injections.  (It used to be 24 shots, this is the first time I've heard 20.)  I received my shots in to mussle tissue (i.e., arms, legs and butt) but never thought there were very painful.  But then again, shots have never bothered me anyway.

Today there are very good vaccines for rabies and I know a lot of friends who have gotten them.  I volunteered here at the Lincoln Park Zoo for three years, and all the keepers had to get the rabies vaccine along with tests for TB.  Rabies isn't anywhere near as scary as it use to be.  

Cat in Chicago

[Sandra Levine]

I simply tried to speak broken English with a French accent.

I know what you mean.  Alan doesn't speak much French, so I tell him to keep Maurice Chevalier in mind.

[stellabella]

Steven:  I'd love to see  a rodeo or the WWF; right before I moved out here to my little kuntry town, the local line dancin' bar put on an annual rodeo--they still have the arena set up for it, but they've stopped doing it.  Truly, it's not the element of danger which keeps me away from the race track, it's the noise.  I was just sayin'.  I think I have a different perspective on fundamentalism --religious, specifically--because I live in the Bible Belt.  It's one thing to view Southerners as curiosities, and it's quite another to live with them.  We are so getting off the original topic, but I'd love to talk to you sometime about the tendency among people of a specific religion to hate their own lapsed members more than non-believers--yes, maybe because they do see them as potential converts.  Isn't there the same tendency among ultra-Orthodox Jews to be really hatefulk towards reformed Jews, whom they see as traitors?  If you looked up "shiksa" in the dictionary, you'd see my picture, but I'm really curious about this.  In NYC in Oct. I talked my husband into taking the train out to 18th Ave in Brooklyn so we could find some good Italian food, and lo and behold there we were in an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood.  Fascinating to me--utterly.  But one of my New York friends goes on against ultra-Orthodox Jews for being, well, fundamentalist and exclusionary, etc.  Is there any correlation?

Hm...

jhlurie:  Southerners also love stores ending in -Mart.  I like stores ending in .com--I live 50 miles from Atl.  If I'm going to buy music or a food processor or whatever, I can get on amazon or drive into that traffic hell--I rarely choose the latter.  But for everything else, I am a devoted Target shopper.  And, to get back to the original topic, when in London I love to explore Marks & Sparks, and in Paris Monoprix.  Mindless consumer heaven!  During my first visit to Paris a couple weeks ago, I asked the man at the desk in our hotel if there were a Monoprix anywherer within walking distance.  He replied, his voice positively dripping with sniveling scorn and disdain, "Not in THIS arrondissemant."  Tut, tut.

[jhlurie]

THIS REPLY TO STELLABELLA IS VERY FAR OFF TOPIC "Cities We Love, Cities We Hate".  Take this as due warning...

Stellabella:  Target is actually a "Mart", of course.  Target-Mart.  :D

BTW: You show a much greater understanding of the NY Jewish situation than most Southerners.  In truth, many ultra-Orthodox (Hasidim is the term) are perfectly respectible.  But other portions of that community do indeed have an attitude similar to what you've described.  It's pretty similar to the attitude of some few extreme Christian sects, who believe that a diluted path is an even greater heresy than simply being an unbeliever.

By far, the largest number of Jews take a more moderate path, and generally those folks (from the "Conservative" and "Reform" schools of thought) get along pretty well.  It's a bit unintuitive, but "Conservative" is actually being used to describe a fairly moderate path, with Reform even further along the path of moderation.

I'm actually not a great source, being a "lapsed" Jew (at least religiously).  My being un-observant is really a matter of personal choice, but it still makes me a bit of an outsider on these issues.  Then again, as an "ethnicity", I can't really be lapsed, now can I (although my family is somewhat ethnically mixed as well)?

The only other thing of note, is that the further you get along the path to reform Judiasm, the more the person USUALLY identifies themselves as solely "American", whereas the more orthodox Jews frequently seem to still see themselves as having some inhert direct vesting in Israel.   This is such a hot-button issue among Jews (and non-jews, I guess) that I suppose I should not be unburrying it--especially when current events over there paint everyone involved, on ALL sides, in such a horrible light.  

I suppose ultimately, it comes back to a unspoken feeling by many (although certainly not all) moderate American Jews that Israel is now increasingly controlled by religious (instead of secular) elements who are positioned as if they represent every Jew in the world, but certainly do not.  It's actually shockingly similar to the situation in a country like Kuwait, where the moderate Muslim element is actually being "bred" out of a majority by an upcoming generation of more orthodox Muslim families with sometimes dozens of children.  I know we aren't suppossed to be talking about stuff like this by some kind of silent agreement, but some think that the same thing is happening in Israel--and to even speak of it gets charges of being some kind of self-hating Jew label thrown at you (especially for someone un-religious like me).  

Of course, this has to co-exist with a belief that Israel, in general, can (and has been) a force for great good in that region in the past, and if they ARE going to be representing us in the minds of so many people, that's why so many Jews STILL hope and pray for continued pro-Israeli sentiment.  That, and the fact that many of us have relatives who live there--although as generations pass they become more distant relatives.

The main point is (and I know YOU get it) is that Jews have a pretty wide spectrum of beliefs, and yet the reason we are frequently hated or misunderstood is that there is some belief in some kind of global Jewish conspiracy where we all have shared goals.  Obviously that's totally ridiculous.

Someone else on the boards will likely disagree completely with me, even though I think I've gone out of my way to not generalize.

See... the whole situation is REALLY simple!

[Fat Guy]

That pretty much squares with my understanding. The thing I'd add is that among Orthodox Jews there are subdivisions and it's possible to generalize within those subdivisions.

Two of the largest Orthodox Jewish groups in America are the so-called Modern Orthodox and the Lubavitcher Hasidim (I believe they are the largest two, but there is some debate and few reliable statistics). The Modern Orthodox are the ones who primarily don't wear beards among the men, and are kind of like more conservative versions of Conservative Jews. In other words, they are very religious but they are not Hasidic (no black hats, etc.; I won't go into a full explanation of Hasidism here, even though it's really quite interesting -- just remember they're the ones with the black hats and beards). This group for the most part does not harbor animosity towards other Jews, and in fact many Modern Orthodox people have Jews of varying levels of observance within their families.

The Lubavitcher Hasidim, possibly the largest Hasidic group and definitely one of the top two or three no matter how you measure, observe a code that is pretty strict on the point that all Jews are Jews no matter their level of observance. They believe in the Yiddishe Pintaleh (Jewish point-of-light) within every Jew and while they will try to help any Jew become more observant they are not supposed to condescend. They are also somewhat ecumenical regarding other religions, and have official, mostly amicable relationships with the Catholic Church et al. Of course there are arrogant, condescending Lubavitchers just as such people exist in all groups of people, but for the most part they are in my experience very nice so long as you don't mind being evangelized to a bit (I should note in that connection that they never try to convert non-Jews, as that is pretty much looked down upon in all Jewish sects). Lubavich is also quite pro-Israel (not all Hasidim are, it should be noted).

Unfortunately, there are some other groups of Hasidim who are pretty tough to deal with. They do view less observant Jews as traitors and they live in introverted communities. Their numbers are not particularly significant -- the largest has maybe 50,000 members -- but they are responsible for a ubiquitous stereotype.

Most educated, aware Reform and Conservative Jews I know harbor no animosity towards Modern Orthodox Jews and very little towards Lubavitcher Hasidim -- although a few do for reasons I don't agree with, and there is also a small group of Jews who are embarrassed by all Hasidim because they are so identifiably Jewish (I submit that anybody taking that position is indeed a self-hating Jew). It is mostly with the other groups -- particularly the infamous and antisocial Satmar Hasidim -- that there is tension.

[stellabella]

jhlurie and steven:  you've provided me here with a greater education than all of chaim potok's novels combined--and i've read them all.  and once, dare i confess this?--my friend and i attended an orthodox shabbat service, sat in the balcony with the women....  my friend judy, a "lapsed" jew from brooklyn, calls me a wannabe, but more recently, an "HJ"--"honorary jew."  i can't explain it--ever since i read the chosen i have been totally intrigued by judaism, and also very amazed by the fact that the average american gentile knows nothing about it.  and i think that's a shame.

i have one favor to ask--could either of you recommend a really good book about orthodox judaism?  

thanks!

[Fat Guy]

The best book to start with is probably Holy Days, by Lis Harris. It happens to be a well-written book -- I think she has done several pieces for the New Yorker. It's supposed to be a fun book about a Hasidic family, but Harris did such a good job on the research that I've seen this book assigned in graduate-level religion classes. And then if you want something a bit more in-depth, but not as good of a read, take a look at Defenders of the Faith, by Samuel Heilman. The thing that makes it really interesting is that it's a sociological look at Hasidism by a Modern Orthodox Jew. But it's got so much good insider stuff in it that it may not make sense if you read it cold -- the Harris book will bring you up to speed a bit, I think. Both should be available on Amazon.com.

[jhlurie]

I'm afraid Steven knows more about the formal "book" aspects than I do.  I was raised in mid-state NY (in a community with a very, very small Jewish community) and mostly know what I do through my Paternal grandfather--who was a bit non-typical in his approach to Judiasm--and frequent visits to New York City.  I went to religious school and had all of the proper religious ceremonies and rites of passage... but for my family Judiasm was more of a portion of our ethnicity as oppossed to a way of life.  

From what I've come to understand in later years, this is actually fairly common for Jews who grow up in rural towns with small (or no) Jewish population, and is a cause of great concern for a portion of the Jewish community who worry about some sort of "diluting" effect--even though the process I'm describing (of Jews mixing in with other communities) has gone on throughout most of recorded Jewish history in some form or other.

I have no hatred of Hassidim, for example, but find the mindset of even the tolerent majority totally alien.  I know Steven is NOT accusing ME of this, but it HAS led to some charges of "self-hatred" before from other quarters, since when asked about them I tend to answer along the lines of "frankly, I'm not even curious".

[macrosan]

--could either of you recommend a really good book about orthodox judaism?

I guess you could always try the Bible, Stella :)

I don't really want to enter this debate, because I really don't think this is the place  ;)  but I do want to make one important point to you, Stella. Reading Steven's posts on the subject of Judaism (here and on other threads) it is clear that he is both knowledgeable and open-minded. By contrast (and I mean no offence) I get the impression that jhlurie is less so, and altho he says he has tried not to generalise, it is impossible not to do so in such a discussion, which after all he started.

So Stella, if you want to learn more about Judaism, take all that is written here with a pinch of salt. If you want to understand the relationship between Judaism and the State of Israel, first learn about Judaism, the religion and the history, from the sort of books Steven has suggested, and also from the "orthodox" religious books.

Judaism is a complex and often mystical religion which many of its voluntary adherents can misunderstand, let alone those who are non-observant or uneducated or involuntary.

What you must understand is that discussion by Jews in public (that is, with non-Jews) of Judaism is a fraught exercise, made so by thousands of years of deliberate and accidental persecution. So discussions like these can be very misleading for those who want to acquire knowledge.

[A Balic]

I have a mild confession to make. On my one trip to the USA I found that the people were really friendly. So friendly in fact that I found in insulting. I though it was patronising. When I queried my American friends about this they said, nope it was all genuine and I was far to suspicous and un-generous. I dunno though, I feel much more comfortable with mildly rude British people, then I do with overly friendly strangers in the USA. Most likely this is why I like France as well. Nobody is pretending to care whether I live or die, which makes me feel much more comfortable.

[A Balic]

Wilfrid, who do you think you are? Cicero? "I won't say anything about . . ."

Adam, an all-white bulldog can be nice, but as with so many of the all-whites, they can have more health problems (especially deafness, blindness, and cancer) and they require a lot more in the way of grooming and bathing. The tear stains especially are a huge pain in the ass.

As I understand it, the Boston Terrier was bred by crossing bulldogs (English bulldogs, in common usage) with American terriers. The don't do that anymore, of course, because now it's a stable, self-perpetuating breed, but that's how the name came about. I think there may be a few people out there calling them Boston Bulldogs, but that's not technically correct.

Speaking of bulldogs and Australia, the Aussie bulldogs (not a recognized breed, but with a loyal following) are quite nice.

Interesting, I have never heard about these Australian Bulldogs. Looked an informative link:

http://www.nobesaussiebulldogs.com/

What do think about trying to sort out some of the health problems in the breed? Is it a problem in the States or is that an Australian thing?