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Al_Dente

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-Modern cultures that use a lot of spices don't use them to cover up rotten meat flavours, so why would the medieval types? These people are/were not idiots.

Neither were Malay villagers in rural Terengganu in the 1970s, yet their use of spices helped cover the off taste of unrefrigerated day-old chicken and fish. I think 1970s classifies as "modern," don't you?

(Of course, all of this is without prejudice to the question of Medieval European practices.)

Michael aka "Pan"

 

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-Modern cultures that use a lot of spices don't use them to cover up rotten meat flavours, so why would the medieval types? These people are/were not idiots.

Neither were Malay villagers in rural Terengganu in the 1970s, yet their use of spices helped cover the off taste of unrefrigerated day-old chicken and fish. I think 1970s classifies as "modern," don't you?

(Of course, all of this is without prejudice to the question of Medieval European practices.)

As discussed above re:Medieval Europeans and spice, we can only comment on the habits for the people that there are literary sources for. In Europe, this would be Kings. Princes, Popes etc.

I have not doubt that people in many cultures (and from many levels in these cultures) have eaten decomposed/off meat. Some even prize it (eg. Grouse in Britain, the stinky fish from Loas).

What I doubt is that King's, Princes and Popes were using spice to cover-up the taste of rotten meat. They didn't have to eat rotten meat unless they wanted to.

So "Malay villagers in rural Terengganu in the 1970s" just aren't relevant. Maybe you could comment on what the Princes of Malaysia were eating in the '70's? Some rotten food to be sure, but only when they wanted it.

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Adam, you're right that my comment is a tangent, but it's relevant to your remark about "modern cultures." If you meant to discuss modern royal families only, you could have.

Shall we agree to move on, then, and leave this thread to focus on the food of the European Medieval elite?

(By the way, yes, I do have some idea what the Terengganu court was eating because my mother bought a cookbook that professed to include [all the?] recipes of the royal chef. But I don't think this is the thread in which to pursue those.)

Michael aka "Pan"

 

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Adam, you're right that my comment is a tangent, but it's relevant to your remark about "modern cultures." If you meant to discuss modern royal families only, you could have.

Shall we agree to move on, then, and leave this thread to focus on the food of the European Medieval elite?

(By the way, yes, I do have some idea what the Terengganu court was eating because my mother bought a cookbook that professed to include [all the?] recipes of the royal chef. But I don't think this is the thread in which to pursue those.)

I think that there is enough information in the rest of my comments for you to have worked out the angle I was taking. The comment that you quaoted was part of a general list that was expanded in later posts.

You should post some of the Royal court recipes, it would be very interesting to see how they compare to the 'non-royal' Malay cooking or "Royal" cuisine from other SE-Asian courts. Another thread.

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Please Adam, I am ignorant of the 'Grouse in Britain' comment. Do you mean like aging?

Yes aging. Longer hanging times don't seem to be that common now, but my supplier hangs them until they are very high and the flesh has they texture of putty. This would be an example of when fresh is not best. No need for spices either.

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Thanks... I've been following this because I have recently started reading a LOT of food histories and I am certainly going to explore the stuff I've been reading on this thread. One thing I haven't quite come to a conclusion about is the integrity of our translation of conditions. It seems as though the more archaeology,etc. exposes of a former era, the more we see remarkable parallels to our time. So I always read the conclusions drawn with a sparkplug ready to ignite the thought that what would I do? I'm thinking like don't tell me peasants rarely ate meat if there was a way in the world at all to steal some,beg some, and I thought there were always a profusion of feast days, weddings, etc. And the last idea is my suspicion that the people doing the work got some pretty good groceries by virtue of being on the scene with the goodies. All the kitchen help always made out, in my experience.

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Thank you again! I get off on so many tangents it scares me sometimes, but I meant to comment this afternoon about the original SCA link, but my heater died, and I had a heater resurrector here. ANYWAY there was the list of horse meat recipes-in particular the Kazakh-sp?-and I found that real cool because here in Montana we have been the proud hosts to the Pres. of Kasakhstan this last week. It's supposedly the first time a head of state has wanted to see Montana, or something. I wonder if he'd have known any good recipes?

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Those of y'all into medieval and Rennaisance cooking might want to check out Shakespeare's Kitchen by Francine Segan. I have a copy in for review, and I must say this is a beautifully produced, well researched book. She has updated all of the recipes to include modern measurements, ingredients and cooking methods but also includes the originals so that you can see how they were presented in Elizabethan England. The photography is extremely well done, too.

Book description:

Francine Segan introduces contemporary cooks to the foods of William Shakespeare’s world with recipes updated from classic sixteenth- and seventeenth-century cookbooks. Her easy-to-prepare adaptations shatter the myth that the Bard’s primary fare was boiled mutton. In fact, Shakespeare and his contemporaries dined on salads of fresh herbs and vegetables; fish, fowl, and meats of all kinds; and delicate broths. Dried Plums with Wine and Ginger-Zest Crostini, Winter Salad with Raisin and Caper Vinaigrette, and Lobster with Pistachio Stuffing and Seville Orange Butter are just a few of the delicious, aromatic, and gorgeous dishes that will surprise and delight. Segan’s delicate and careful renditions of these recipes have been thoroughly tested to ensure no-fail, standout results.

The tantalizing Renaissance recipes in Shakespeare’s Kitchen are enhanced with food-related quotes from the Bard, delightful morsels of culinary history, interesting facts on the customs and social etiquette of Shakespeare’s time, and the texts of the original recipes, complete with antiquated spellings and eccentric directions. Fifty color images by award-winning food photographer Tim Turner span the centuries with both old-world and contemporary treatments. Patrick O’Connell provides an enticing Foreword to this edible history from which food lovers and Shakespeare enthusiasts alike will derive nourishment. Want something new for dinner? Try something four hundred years old.

Chad

Chad Ward

An Edge in the Kitchen

William Morrow Cookbooks

www.chadwrites.com

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So I always read the conclusions drawn with a sparkplug ready to ignite the thought that what would I do? I'm thinking like don't tell me peasants rarely ate meat if there was a way in the world at all to steal some,beg some, and I thought there were always a profusion of feast days, weddings, etc. And the last idea is my suspicion that the people doing the work got some pretty good groceries by virtue of being on the scene with the goodies. All the kitchen help always made out, in my experience.

Definitely check out the Montanari book. It is a good education in why you have to take a lot of popular food history -- and history in general -- with a grain of salt. The amount of meat that peasants ate varied greatly depending on the period, but probably reached an all-time low in the nineteenth century. I was just reading a John Thorne article suggesting that Irish peasants were eating 10 kilos of potatoes a day -- and nothing else, except maybe a cup of buttermilk -- before the famine. Conversely, peasants in the "dark ages" had the most diverse (and meaty) diets of any period except our own. Another excellent book by an italian that deals with this subject on a more theoretical level is Massimo Livi-Bacci, Population and Nutrition : An Essay on European Demographic History (out of print).

There were certainly a lot of feast days, and remember, there were also at least 120 fast days -- no meat allowed. The penalty for eating meat on a fast day was death (in the Carolingian capitularies).

Related question: I have read somewhere that wasabi was used to disguise rancid fish in the Kyoto period (Kyoto is I think 2-3 days from the coast on horseback) -- has anyone taken the trouble to disprove this claim?

EDIT:

As discussed above re:Medieval Europeans and spice, we can only comment on the habits for the people that there are literary sources for. In Europe, this would be Kings. Princes, Popes etc.

Adam this is a bit of a misconception, as there are certainly literary sources for a wide variety of things illiterate people did -- just not recipes. But this is immaterial, because only the wealthy could afford spices.

Edited by badthings (log)
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As discussed above re:Medieval Europeans and spice, we can only comment on the habits for the people that there are literary sources for. In Europe, this would be Kings. Princes, Popes etc.

Adam this is a bit of a misconception, as there are certainly literary sources for a wide variety of things illiterate people did -- just not recipes. But this is immaterial, because only the wealthy could afford spices.

Yes and my deffinitions of "Peasant", "Medieval" and "Spice" were also generalisations. :biggrin:

From what I have been told or read. All of the above varied quite a bit in definition from place to place and time to time (eg. Cotton cloth was a "spice").

The peasant class in 15th C Tuscany, for instance, had a relatively high percentage of literate people (according to one source), but there is little mention of their food, other then lists of produce consumed and the occasional "Thank you for the cow" letter. No mention of spice.

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