need a new range cooker

[curlywurlyfi]

OK - I'm redoing my kitchen (well, the entire flat, but that's another story - anyone know a good builder??). It needs new EVERYTHING - I've inherited a New World cooker from the 1950s made of ship-building steel with which is so small it only has three burners on top and, worse, a standard A4 baking tray DOESN'T FIT INSIDE IT! it is driving me MAD.

So, I am definitely buying a new cooker, and would for preference have a range type. I'm quite drawn to the 100cm Smeg Opera A2-2 (two side-by-side doors, ie dual cavity, with one side narrower than the other), electric oven and gas hob. I used to have a Britannia fan oven, but was never that impressed with the heat distribution.

My list of desires are:

side-by-side doors

electric oven

gas hob with four or preferably five burners

Do any of you have any opinions? [Fi ducks to avoid incoming.] I'm a domestic cook, not a professional, so don't need anything ultra-sturdy. Plus, I'm on the fourth floor, so no Agas. Not keen on Lacanche. But does anyone own a CDA, for example? My budget is around £1000 but I'd obviously like to pay less if possible (ref para one concerning entire flat to refit).

Thanks in advance for your help.

Fi

[PoppySeedBagel]

I have a big Brittannia - 2 oven /5 burners - they cost about £1,800 new these days - I don't like it much - it's a major pain to clean and the build quality isn't that good for the cost. Next time I'll have two decent full-size AEG or similar ovens and a 5 burner separate hob with automatic lighting of burners and no nooks and crannies. The Brittannia looks good though!

[jackal10]

have you looked at the Aga 6-4 ?

Made and styled by Aga but conventional cooker - 4 ovens and 6 burners

[curlywurlyfi]

Hmmm - jackal, it looks great, but it weighs nearly 500lbs, and I live on the fourth floor of a rickety building. I'm not worried so much by my kitchen floor (though god knows I probably should be) as the thought of getting it up the stairs! thank you, though.

[jackal10]

Hmmm - jackal, it looks great, but it weighs nearly 500lbs, and I live on the fourth floor of a rickety building. I'm not worried so much by my kitchen floor (though god knows I probably should be) as the thought of getting it up the stairs! thank you, though.

If it like a conventioanla ga, it comes to piieces and is asembled on site.

Talk to your local friendly AGA agent, and let them figure it out...

[curlywurlyfi]

And, PoppySeedBagel, I totally agree about the Britannia. It looked great, but which idiot designed its electric grill that you can't clean behind? Eventually, any time I grilled anything the kitchen filled with choking black smoke - I stopped being able to use it in the end. And so I moved (shades of "this oven's dirty - let's move").

And the sad thing is, I love the New World brand - my mum had one when I was little and hers was GREAT - totally classic retro curvy cooker in cream enamel, with a gas grill and a warming oven - and the one I have is a great little cooker, but little is so the word - it's just too small.

[MobyP]

Other options:

here for basic cookers, hobs etc,

And here for something bespoke.

Or here for the best of the best.

Alternatively, there's a good smeg hob available in the 700 quid range with five or six burners, two of which are (I think) in the 3.5-4.5kw range (I found it on the first link, can't remember the details at the minute), and it means you would have more control over which ovens you pair up with it.

[sarah w]

There is another thread titled "range finder" that i remember recently on this board

My input was:

i bought a flat in feb & we spent quite alot of time looking at ovens. I thought the smegs were nice until i looked up close.

My boyfriend is a chef and we are very happy with our rangemaster Toledo, ours is the 90 dual fuel. It has 2 ovens (one normal and one slim,good for rib roasts and plate warming) , 5 rings (one which has a wok cradle or griddle attachment) & a seperate grill which alot didnt seem to have,we found it to be a simple yet smart stylish design...

I am no good to advise on the technical aspects except the fact that i can use it !! I could check with my fella though

We paid £1175

http://www.rangemaster.co.uk

have fun

sarah x

[Trashers mum]

  Not keen on Lacanche. 

I did a couple of dems on a Lacanche in the summer and was very impressed...loved the hob (especially large central burner) and the ovens were brilliant - wonderful meringue.

Aga are about to go big on Rayburn - the end of it being the poor relation, could be useful for heating too?

[thom]

I'm in the same situation (in fact, I asked a similar question on here a month or so a go).

My limited findings so far are as follows:

*The Lacanche look fantastic but are expensive.

*I have only heard bad feedback about the Brittanias.

*Rangemaster are good but a little 'old-world' style for my tastes.

*Smeg seem decent and Gary Marshall (where are you Gary?) swears by/at his.

*A chef friend recommended the Wolf/Falcon semi-pro brands, which seem great but are a touch pricy for me.

*The Baumatics look ok (and are very cheap), but no-one I know has any opinions on them. Ideas anyone?

My big problem is that I rarely see any of the brands I am interested in displayed in kitchen shops, DIY places or electrical retailers. I do believe that when buying something like a range you do want to actually slam the doors, tweak the knobs, and break at least one vital part before you choose to part with your money. Is there a way to do this or am I just stupid? (you can read that last statement as two unconnected questions).

Anyway, I'm probably leaning towards the Smeg A2-5 100cm at the minute. I would recommend buying it off the web. Try www.appliancecity.co.uk or www.theappliancepeople.com. I have used them (they delivered my shiny new Smeg fridge) and they were very cheap (about £1650 for the A2-5) are perfectly efficient.

Good luck, and let me know what you choose.

Cheers

Thom

[Boris_A]

here for the best of the best.

There's still a bit room at the top:

Get a Molteni:

Molteni G140

G160

G230

or a Bonnet:

Bonnet Maestro

Those cookers are going to set you back from a cool $15'000 upwards (wo. shipping @ 900 pounds or more) and consume more fuel than your heating.

But at least you will not have to search an longer.

Regards.

[MobyP]

Have you been to Buyers and Sellers in Ladbroke Grove? They often have high range gear on display - if not quite hooked up to the gas mains. They gave me a fantastic deal on a showroom Viking.

Also, there's a pretty good shop in Reigate - opposite the cinema - exit 7 on the M25. They have lacanches, mercury's, Britannias and Smegs on display.

Wolf - as you mentioned - split their franchise in two - the home range went to Sub-Zero, and I hear the quality has suffered. On the catering side, they gave it in this country to Hobart. I haven't heard anything about prices though, or ventilation requirements, given how powerful they probably are.

Has anyone looked at Mercury (I think that's the name). They're made by Falcon, who do catering pieces, and seem well constructed.

[curlywurlyfi]

god, I am loving you ALL (particularly you, Boris_A, now I will never be happy). am going to spend my weekend ranging (ho ho) far and wide across the country (ok, so West London and Reigate), beadily eyeing up enamel finishes, twirling knobs and kicking doors. Will probably be politely ejected from many premises. Seriously, some great options here - thank you.

[MobyP]

here for the best of the best.

There's still a bit room at the top:

Get a Molteni:

Molteni G140

G160

G230

or a Bonnet:

Bonnet Maestro

I'm so in love I'm in pain.

[sarah w]

They are quite impressive Boris_A !!

With ref to Thom's comments i agree that alot of rangemasters range are 'old-world' style (An Aga) but the Toledo range and the new elite range are sleek in my eyes

We also have been quite happy with our Baumatic hood but i cannot comment on their oven range

sarah x

[jeremysco]

I have a Baumatic 90cm wide 60/30 Split range and it has been fine. Cooks evenly and the rings have a good range of sizes. It doent look as naff as the Brittanias and doesnt cost as much as a Smeg using the same stainless steel and electrics. Cant find fault apart from with the rotisserie, which is underpowered/geared but then, having asked around, it seems that all intergrated consumer oven rotisseries are.

I brought mine from an electrical wholesaler called Bemco 020 8874 0404 ask for Sue, who are on Wandsworth roundabout next to The Ship PH. . They were cheaper than any shop that I could find as they mainly sell to electricians, builders and property developers etc. Mine was £899

The only tip I would have is to try and find an industrial extractor rather than a feeble consumer model. They cost a lot more but at least they might work.

[thom]

That's the sort of post I was waiting for!

It seems that on a roughly like for like basis the Baumatic's come in at around £700 as opposed to about £1,600 for the Smeg. If quality is similar then that is a LOT of brand to pay for...

I think the Baumatics look fine (on the web) but I'm still trying to find a stockist local to Manchester so I can go in and tweak their knobs.

As it were...

Any fellow Northerners care to chime in?

Cheers

Thom

[Jonathan Day]

There is another way: components rather than a single integrated range.

If I were starting from scratch, I would consider getting a few electric induction hobs (these perform beautifully, with the right cookware, and the price is high but falling) and a proper "combi" oven, with digital temperature controls.

The combi I have in France will maintain a very precise temperature, and a very low temperature -- anything from about 40C to well over 300C, maintaining temperature within a few degrees. It will also steam, though I don't use that because it requires maintaining a water softener. It is perfect for slow-roasting. You can get these ovens without the steam feature.

This doesn't give you a grill or a salamander, but this could be added separately.

I wonder whether you might get far better performance this way for much less than the cost of a La Cornue, Lacanche, Aga, Bonnet, etc. It would still be more expensive than a domestic range, though, and you would have several vendors to deal with.

[PoppySeedBagel]

I also went to the shop in Reigate, which is very good - and I'm sure they told me that the Britannia is made by the same people as Smeg - certainly, despite the name Britannia are made in Italy!

[curlywurlyfi]

have discovered also that it is well worth shopping around on the net, once you've done the real-world research on what you want. Go to Kelkoo and plug in the details. A friend recently got her Smeg + hood + groovy fridge for about GBP1200, saving a shedload on the John Lewis price.

Jonathan - interested in the steamer oven concept. Friend had one installed in London recently and I thought (in my Scottish way), 'hmm, they've clearly got more money than sense, nothing there that can't be achieved with an actual steamer' - do you have any comments on the performance of these?

have a feeling I'm over-researching, thus leading to indecision paralysis. will doubtless still be cooking on the current parlous model when I'm 75.

[Boris_A]

I wonder whether you might get far better performance this way for much less than the cost of a La Cornue, Lacanche, ..., Bonnet, etc.

"Far better perfomance" depends.

(La Cornue and Lacanche are rather high end home cookers. With Aga I don't know whether they are used in restaurants..)

With an entry level model of a Bonnet, Molteni and alike range you arer able to crank out up to 80 services. That's what they are intended for.

The ovens are large (GN2/1), incredible heavy stuff (with huge iron cast inlays) and will keep the temperature very steady. This kind of ovens have so much heat capacity (inertia) they will simply not notice if you put something inside. As far as I've seen these kind of ovens are mainly used to finish dishes (for example lamb racks) an so on in sauté pans.

The uniqe thing with this heavy truck style French ranges is the "plaque coup de feu", a large (50x80), massive iron cast cooktop like old wood ovens. They have a hot spot over the asysmmetrically placed burner and get down to simmer temperature at the edge. So you control heat by just shifting your (preferrably) copper pans. You don't need to regulate anything and can slow down or speed up the cooking process very elegantly. Which is very important for synchronization of the ingredients of complicated dishes.

If you ever worked wit such a cooktop, you'll perfectly understand why the French call this kind of cooker "Le Piano du Chef".

And it is a lot of work to clean these machines. OTOH, if your name happens to be Troisgros, Haeberlin, Ducasse or Bocuse, you'll have devoted casseroliers, plongeurs or practicants to it for you every eveneing.

For a home, it's a complete overkill.

But frankly I find this small locomotives a much more inspiring overkill than riding a Harley-Davidson or driving a Porsche Cayenne or a Humer to the next super market.

despite the name Britannia are made in Italy!

I think ILVE is the producer.

Regards

[Jonathan Day]

Agas turn up in a very few restaurants, mostly smaller ones. An Aga alone will not work, even for truly serious home cooking, because it is a heat storage system: the heat input is less than the output delivered to the hottest parts of the system. Hence especially when the boiling plate is in use, the internal temperature of the system falls. This makes some serious cooks hate Agas with a passion. Ours came with the house, and I disliked it at first.

Once I got accustomed to the Aga, I started to find it a pleasure to use. The ovens are very steady, the heat comes from all four walls of the oven, and you have a large warming plate for holding sauces and resting meats. You develop a flexibility and an intuition that doesn't require turning dials to 182.5 degrees, and you start relying both on touch, and, where precision is needed, an instant-read thermometer or probe, far more accurate than an oven thermostat. But a pro cranking out hundreds of covers might find the Aga frustrating. It is for meditative rather than rapid-fire cooking.

In France we have a restaurant cooker, "un piano" (again, came with the house) with a grill, two enormous burners, and the plaque à mijoter that Boris describes. It also has an oven, but because we have the electric combi it is almost never used. The plaque is wonderful, but the cooker itself is a pain to clean up.

[Jonathan Day]

Jonathan - interested in the steamer oven concept.  Friend had one installed in London recently and I thought (in my Scottish way), 'hmm, they've clearly got more money than sense, nothing there that can't be achieved with an actual steamer' - do you have any comments on the performance of these?

curlywurlyfi -- the typical domestic steamer looks like this. This is the Miele, probably one of the better ones, but it's still small. Most of the home models I've seen are even smaller, and many have round doors, inconvenient for anything but small amounts of food. As far as I know, all they do is steam. My guess is that these became somewhat popular on the back of the low fat movement.

A combi looks like this. It's large, and it both bakes and steams. You can start with steam and then switch to dry heat, or the other way around.

The combi is incredibly flexible and useful, though very expensive. The home steamer (top link) seems to fit your Scottish saying. A stovetop steamer would be as useful, cheaper, more flexible. But I don't have one of these steam-only models and I may be misjudging it.

[Boris_A]

My two cents:

A compact desktop, professional combi-stamer (intended for front cooking):

Electrolux Compact Steamer

size 40x35x59, price ~ £1300, hot air temperature is limited to 220C, though

Another professional device is Eloma. They have a compact model

Eloma Joker for GN 2/3 molds. The whole installation is expensive, £3500 with water filtering device.

And it's not for built in. But this machine should perform like a screamer steamer.

I personally have none, because this combi appliances are the rising fashion for home kitchens. I guess there are a lot of apps. coming in the next years.

I'd prefer a direct water input and, especially output, because cleaning of combis is not easy. So if you have an outflow, you can heat/steam with some detergent and then rinse the inside. The bigger pro models have always an integrated spray.

As far as I know only Gaggenau is currently offering such a fixed water inflow/outflow steamer. But Gaggenau is the high end brand of Bosch/Siemens, so I expect this device to migrate the foodchain (litteraly) down to the normal priced levels (£800-1000)

[thom]

Chaps,

For myself (sorry to hi-jack the topic) I need a range as I have free-standing kitchen furniture rather than fitted.

So, I'm still trying to get to grips with the different brands out there. Latest option gleaned from the Good Food Show yesterday:

CAPLE

Never heard of it, but apparently they are made by De Longhi about 5 miles from the Smeg factory in Italy and have been imported to England for about 5 years.

The style is (on purpose) very similar to the Smeg's and quality (based on very limited mucking about with the model on the stand) seemed fine. Relatively chunky and clunky.

The dealer had a couple of other brands on the stand (something from NZ and also a rather fine £4,500 Bocuse), but the Caples seemed to form the bulk of his business.

His story is that quality is as good as Smegs, and they compete head to head by pricing their models (PLUS hood and splashback) against the comparable Smeg model (excluding extras).

So, A Smeg A2 is approx £1,700 best price, and the very similar Caple model is £1,795 with hood and splashback. Also, I was promised an extra £195 off if I booked during the show (Tch, salespeople...).

All comes down to - "Are these ranges any good?". Has anyone every heard of Caple, and more importantly does anyone have any feedback on them?

Answers on a postcard etc etc...

Cheers

Thom