Manners?

[A Balic]

Last night I made dinner for some work colleagues of my wife. They were interested in game so I cooked a pheasant and some grey partridge (plain roasted), as they are proberly the most appoachable for the un-initiated. One of the guests had a problem with eating her pheasant once presented with it, which perfectly fine with me, game is not to everybodies taste. However, she went on a treat about it, using words like "disgusting" etc and making gagging noises.

I was really miffed with this because I had gone to some trouble to make her a meal when I was tired and I didn't think that being that ungracious was exceptable behaviour for a guest. I suspect that if I had cooked something else instead of game that she didn't like she would have been polite about it, but because it had "Yuck factor" it gave her carte blanche to make a fuss.

Anyway, the rest of the meal was fine (I didn't give her the good whisky though), but I was wondering if anybody had an opinion on whether they think that people are more likely to make a fuss about less straight forward food items, if they don't like it, rather then just not liking something more familiar?

[AdamLawrence]

Wow - either that guest was incredibly rude by nature, or your household must be phenomenally relaxed if she felt that sort of behaviour was acceptable.

I find quite the opposite problem when we have guests. I am a pretty good cook who sometimes overreaches himself, but I don't have a great regard for my own cooking (I reckon I'm really, really pleased with about one dish in 20). And I find it very frustrating when I put food that I'm not totally happy with on the table and everyone raves about it. There's only one of our friends who I can rely on to be objective - and I don't think it's any coincidence that she's quite a serious cook.

Last weekend we had friends down from Edinburgh for supper. Our vegetable box had included beetroot, which I don't like much, so I thought I'd make borscht and follow it with beef stroganoff. I got as far as pureeing the soup before the sickly beetroot aroma overcame me, and I just had to chuck it out. The replacement starter - a red onion and taleggio puff pastry tart - was fine, but I wasn't happy with the stroganoff at all. Yet - the usual reaction - fab, lovely, thanks etc etc.

I think it's fine that guests should show some gratitude for one's efforts - but personally, I'd appreciate a bit more honesty. (But that doesn't go as far as making Bleurrrghggghhhh noises because they don't like the pheasant!)

[cabrales]

some work colleagues of my wife. They were interested in game . . . using words like "disgusting" etc and making gagging noises. . . . I didn't think that being that ungracious was exceptable behaviour for a guest. . . .

Adam -- The complaining guest did act inappropriately for several reasons, among others:

1. Lack of Appreciation of Balic-ian Efforts/Process. Your post suggests that work colleagues of your wife (i.e., colleagues/ spouse of the ingrate or the ingrate herself) were interested in game.  Your post does not make clear whether they hinted at their interest in connection with your meal, but that is not determinative.  If a guest knows that a dish is being served in response to her (or her dining party's) interest in it, she should express appreciation for the chef's consideration (and, for an "ideal", but difficult to find, guest, bring a bottle of wine suitable for the item   ).  Such an expression of appreciation (for the process, the effort, etc.) should be separate from the diner's subjective assessment of whether the dish was tasty.

2. Lack of Graciousness in Framing Substantive Dislike for Dish.  I agree that your complaining guest lacked manners in describing the dish as "disgusting" and making gagging noises, and that her behaviour was inappropriate.  A diner can communicate non-appreciation of the taste of a dish in different ways (if she chose to communicate it at all), such as:

-- "The meat of the pheasant was a bit too strong/challenging for me[, given this is my first sampling of it]" -- Emphasizing the intrinsic features of the ingredient (although pheasant is, as you note, one of the least "challenging" game items) or the subjective aspects of the assessment.

-- "Would somebody like the rest of my pheasant dish?  I've had enough for this evening" -- Utilizing ambiguity, as the host may be unsure whether the diner generally has a small appetite, is on a diet, etc.

-- "I wouldn't say that pheasant [prepared this way, if a more aggressive dislike of the item prepared a particular say is desired to be signalled] is among my favorite dishes.  But Diner X seems to be enjoying it most heartily" -- Being obvious about not liking the dish, but ending on a happier note.

In other words, one can be honest without being rude, if one chooses not to be silent.

3. Potential Adverse Impact on Other Diners.  Among other reasons for the inappropriateness of your guest's behaviour is that it has a negative effect on you, your wife and other diners.  To the extent other diners are still eating or digesting their food, their enjoyment of the food could be affected.  I am sensitive to noise during a meal, and dislike even faint background music in a restaurant, let alone brusque gagging noises.

In addition, the diner may have diminished the happiness you and your wife may have otherwise derived from sharing a meal with the group (even if colleagues ).

[Jinmyo]

Adam, simply horrid. I actually feel compelled to apologize for your guest to you even though I had nothing to do with it.

I believe that you are correct that people feel that an unusual (to them) dish can abrogate the usual civility and decorum that would be expected.

To make matters worse, many people so limit the range of dishes that they encounter that even calf liver let alone monkfish or cod liver can ellicit some amazingly rude responses. They seem to revert to a certain childish level of response, much as if the "unusual" dish allows them to behave as they did at age 5 about the brussels srouts.  :confused:

[Rosie]

Absolutely unacceptable behavior by your guest. Don't invite her again. When I have people over for dinner I  ask beforehand if they have any dietary restrictions.I have friends who don't eat pork or shellfish. I also have a friend who is allergic to eggs. Also, I will sometimes have two  entrees one being chicken or fish so that there is a choice. I love pheasant. Invite me next time!

[B Edulis]

This is really interesting, since I'm currently (ghost)writing a book on manners and etiquette.

Was this ignorant person an adult? I can understand such a response, maybe, if the atmosphere is one of playful experimentation. But since you chose the food just for their interest, it's disrespectful to both you and the fowl who gave their lives for her sustenance and pleasure. Jeez. What an ingrate. Sounds like she just degenerated into infantilism. Perhaps your suspicion that "strange" food gives some people license to be strange themselves is correct.

[cabrales]

However, "strange" food should not give guests the right to be rude to a host. For meals that are not taken at restaurant, my approach with respect to the receipt of a dish I do not like (which, obviously, does not equate to a "bad" dish) is silence.  It's the least a guest can do if the host has been kind enough to invite the guest to the host's home.  Note I will not force myself to take in large portions of a dish I dislike.

If I am asked how a not-so-great dish prepared at somebody's home was, I would take great care in responding (e.g., "I liked the sauce for the pheasant, but I guess I'm not a great fan of the game flavors in the meat generally.  By the way, where did you get the pheasant?"  The host is likely to mention a market or food store, at which time the conversation can be switched to, for example, food vendors in the applicable area.)

[Jinmyo]

cabrales, you're the perfect guest.

When you do like the meal, do you tell them why you liked it in the manner you tell us here on eGullet?

[Liza]

At the first gagging noise, I hope I would have said, "Oh dear, are you alright"?

Ingrate guest responds, in up-voiced sing-song, "It's this...stuff. It's gross!"

At this point, in my fantasy, the room is suddenly silent. All the guests, and hosts, look at the offending guest with slightly quizical, slightly sympathetic in the 'poor, deluded child' way, and then continue with their meals and ignore her.

I'll add to Cabrales' list of proper reactions to a less than desirable meal: quiet pushing around of the food on the plate. Emphasis on quiet.

[Bux]

Horrid behavior. Totally unacceptable on her part. Had she been my guest, I don't know how I would have reacted. Assuming I did not have a shotgun, which I don't have, I would have been torn between trying to ignore her rudeness (for her sake?) and telling her to shut up out of respect for my other guests.

[cabrales]

When you do like the meal, do you tell them why ...

Jinmyo -- Only on a few occasions has a friend cooked to the level where I would want to discuss how much I enjoyed the home meal in detail without having to embellish (which I rarely do in the food context).  That probably speaks to the fact that most of my friends, like me, cannot cook (sadly, and I wish that were not the case) and tend to eat at their workplace on weekdays.  Also, among my friends, the few who can cook likely could not cook for more than 2-3 people at the same time -- a limiting factor.  Members of this board seem to be capable of cooking for significantly larger groups (e.g., Malawry).

Plus, I worry that, if I am too descriptive about certain appetizers or dessert items, they might actually have been store-bought (thus, making the host feel bad if that is the item singled out for praise).

Liza -- I do sometimes "push" food, but the food needs to be cut up (depending on what it is) and/or "compacted" with the fork/knife before it will look like less remains.  How do you address the problems of height accumulating when food is pushed to limit its area on the plate?  At restaurants, I only "push" if a huge amount (say, three-quarters) remains. Otherwise, I try to put the knife/fork/etc. over some portion of the food to confuse how much remains.  I do not think that technique is particularly effective, though.

[mamster]

Laurie and I had a conversation about this topic recently.  We discovered that we were both raised with a reasonable instruction:  if you go to someone's house and are served something you're not sure about, give it a good faith effort and never complain.

There are good reasons for this bit of etiquette that go well beyond simply "being nice to people."  Food sharing is a powerful practice, and both culturally and biologically, it seems reasonable to be quite offended by someone who refuses an offer of shared food.

If you have a genuine food allergy, that's one thing.  But although there are some foods I really dislike, I'll never mention this when someone asks me to dinner, and I have no allergies (lucky me).

Yes, this means I think you should be deceptive when served something you don't like in a person's home.  It's a level of deception I can live with, because the consequences of not being deceptive are worse.

[cabrales]

if you go to someone's house and are served something you're not sure about, give it a good faith effort ... It's a level of deception I can live with, because the consequences of not being deceptive are worse.

In making a "good faith effort" to eat unappealing food, the costs are not only those associated with the deception, but also the disutility from taking in the food.  The latter is why I generally do not eat things I dislike even when in somebody's home.  On very rare occasions when the wine offered is excellent and abundant and I have consumed too much bread relative to other foods to continue doing so, I might eat a little bit of slightly bad food to increase my alcohol tolerance.

[tommy]

it sounds like your guest was a bit more relaxed than you were.

rudeness is never acceptable in my book.  however, if you're being playful, and someone just doesn't "get it", there's not much that can be done.  obviously i wasn't there and don't know the background of the relationship or the tone of the evening, so it's next to impossible to support either side.

i have no problem with telling a friend that his food "sucks" if i don't like it.  however, i wouldn't say this to a business associate's husband if i didn't know him well enough to know that he'd take it lightly.  well, after a couple of drinks i might.  

[jhlurie]

However, "strange" food should not give guests the right to be rude to a host. For meals that are not taken at restaurant, my approach with respect to the receipt of a dish I do not like (which, obviously, does not equate to a "bad" dish) is silence.  

I almost agree with cabrales.  

In my opinion, it is an acceptible alternative to tell a little white lie and act like you have a stomach ache or aren't very hungry.  You must smile and be polite, keep up with dinner conversation in a subdued manner, and overall at least try to eat a little (as cabrales says).  I really think that a diplomatic excuse may be better than an aching silence.

B Edulis... would such a book include a chapter on "Internet" etiquette?  I know entire books have been done on the subject, but it seems to me that any complete book on modern manners would include 'net etiquette, as well as other modern topics like "why its rude to talk 'full-voiced' on a cell phone on public transportation".

(edited to remove an extraneous double negative--I said "not unacceptible", shame on me...)

[Wilfrid]

I would agree that the guest's behaviour was bad in this case.  My Beloved, who is uninhibited in her expression of likes and dislikes, is under strict instructions not to make "bleeuugh" noises when we are guests.

I would suggest that there are obligations on both sides, however.  I have been firmly apprised of the fact that many foods I like are powerfully aversive to other people.  I genuinely enjoy cooking and eating offal dishes, but I know that I will get a "bleeeuuugh" reaction if I serve them at most dinner parties.  So I reserve my gorgeous tripe plates for  sophisticated friends.  I think if you surprise someone with something way out of the ordinary, a "bleeugh" reaction, while rude, becomes something you should have expected.

In my view, Adam was well on the right side of that line in offering pheasant and partridge, but clearly the guest found the dishes as weird and appalling as rognons blancs.  If I have no idea about my guests strong dislikes, I do usually ask them before planning a menu.

But there is also an obligation on guests to offer significant information on this subject without being asked.  I had the experience, by no means for the first time, last week of inviting someone to a restaurant and having her tell me, as she scanned the menu that she was vegetarian.  I shouldn't have to ask for that sort of information - she should have told me before I chose the restaurant.  Fortunately, it wasn't a steak-house - I had her figured for a wimp in any case.

[Malawry]

I echo everybody else's horror, shock, and sympathy.

I love to have friends over for dinner, and I put together a decent dized dinner party once a month or so. I do not serve variety meats or game, or any other meat or fowl, but I do cook fish and vegetarian meals. I have served tofu to guests before. People who are not familiar with tofu often anticipate negative experiences. I don't hide what I am serving from them (I often include information about the menu in a dinner party invitation). But I have never had anybody act as rudely as your guest did. Mostly I've heard "I can't believe this is tofu and I'm liking it." But even those who don't care for it don't make gagging noises at the table. How gauche. I hope you're not obligated to invite this woman over again.

I never know what to do if a meal I am making has a dud of a dish. I've never served anything inedible, but I have put dishes I was displeased with on the table (sometimes, I've had no choice). I usually end up sheepishly explaining that I'm not so thrilled with the item in question as people start in on it, and also say I won't be offended if they agree. This way nobody feels like they have to gush over or even eat all of my crappy food. But then if somebody loves it, I feel like I'm questioning their tastes! I guess there is no real solution to this one except not presenting guests with a not-so-good dish. Which normally I succeed at doing.

As an eater with dietary restrictions, I always get a little anxious when a new friend invites me over for dinner. I feel like it's my obligation to explain what I do and don't eat (I have food allergies as well, which make for extra fun) but I also feel like a bit of an ingrate by asking them to accommodate my quirks. On the other hand, I am extra-giving when dealing with others' preferences. I ask those I don't know so well if they avoid eating anything or have any special needs, and I go to great lengths to accommodate those needs. I once got very upset about a guest who hadn't told me she didn't like fish. I was serving an herb-crusted salmon that I was very proud of and I'd made a couple of stuffed portabello mushrooms for guests who told me in advance that they were not fish-eaters, but I didn't have any extra mushrooms for this other guest. I found it hard to keep my anger in check...I always want to be the perfect hostess, and that includes accommodating all my guests. I feel my guests have a responsibility to me to make this possible by communicating their needs in such a way that I can accommodate them. I don't know what I'd do if somebody told me they wanted to try tofu, and then gagged at the table when I presented it to them.

[cabrales]

I once got very upset about a guest who hadn't told me she didn't like fish. I was serving an herb-crusted salmon that I was very proud of and I'd made a couple of stuffed portabello mushrooms for guests who told me in advance that they were not fish-eaters, but I didn't have any extra mushrooms for this other guest.

Malawry -- When you are cooking for large groups, wouldn't you have to make some "extra" portions of the "baseline" entree and any dishes accommodating special dietary considerations because people might want seconds?

jhlurie -- Apart from not wanting to use the "white lie", I would imagine that the white lie may be unbelievable in many contexts.  For example, if a guest waits until a dish is served before saying he has a stomache, that renders the lie difficult to believe.  Also, if the dish is not the first dish (in an otherwise acceptable meal), an indication of stomach problems would be counter to the guest's previous healthy appetite and there might even be a suggestion (for dishes very late in a meal) that the host's earlier dishes could have caused the sickness?

Wilfrid & Adam -- What is the greatest number of people you have cooked for? Also, Adam -- have you cooked for J Acord?

[A Balic]

Thank you everybody for your thoughts. I was mostly annoyed that the guest used her over-compensation for her embarrassment as oppertunity to draw attention to herself and of justifying her squeamishment. eg. The meal was ethicaly wrong because the bird had been shot (which she had no problem with until I served the bird). Thankfully, one of the other guests pointed out that if it wasn't for the shooting of game, much of the Scottish heathland would have been converted to pine plantations long ago.

The guests had three days 'warning' about the game (one of them had asked for game to be cooked). The guest in question isn't naturaly squeamish (the previous day she and my wife had been pick bits of decomposing rabbit out of a stream and she had no problem with that), so it was all the more annoying for that.

Ironicaly, One guest bought his partner, who was a vegetarian. I made a seperate meal for her, only to find out that she would have been happy to eat game, as it was only farmed meat she didn't eat.  

[tommy]

The guest in question isn't naturaly squeamish (the previous day she and my wife had been pick bits of decomposing rabbit out of a stream and she had no problem with that), so it was all the more annoying for that.

now now, that's a horrible analogy.  unless, of course, she ate the rabbit.

Regards,

Analogy Police.

[Andy Lynes]

Not that I hold grudges or anything, but if someone did that in my house, they would never be invited again and I would probably not speak to them for a very long time, if ever. It would completely ruin the evening for me and I would sulk very badly indeed. I'm getting pissed off just thinking about it. How dare they!

[Andy Lynes]

Bloody hell! What is the world coming to. And pheasant as well!! A completely acceptable and approachable thing to serve to any meat eater.

Ok, I'm calming down now.

[cabrales]

it was only farmed meat she didn't eat.  

Adam -- Why did the guest only not eat farmed meat?  Is it a question of taste preference, religious considerations or some other reason?

[A Balic]

Wilfrid & Adam -- What is the greatest number of people you have cooked for? Also, Adam -- have you cooked for J Acord?

Cabrales, I have made hot canapes etc for about 30-40 people at party. For my birthday I cooked a three course meal for twelve people. Six to eight people is size I feel comfortable with. I teand to cooked ethnic/peasant type food, so not so much emphasis on presentation, as on flavour/context.

I have cooked for John on numerous occasions, with much fun had by all. John is a great cook, who has made some of the most memorable meals I have ever had.

[Jinmyo]

Uh, about picking decomposed rabbit bits from a stream. Your wife and her colleagues do this for a living?  :wow:

Scotland is an amazing place.