Manners?

[jhlurie]

jhlurie -- Apart from not wanting to use the "white lie", I would imagine that the white lie may be unbelievable in many contexts.  For example, if a guest waits until a dish is served before saying he has a stomache, that renders the lie difficult to believe.  Also, if the dish is not the first dish (in an otherwise acceptable meal), an indication of stomach problems would be counter to the guest's previous healthy appetite and there might even be a suggestion (for dishes very late in a meal) that the host's earlier dishes could have caused the sickness?

You have some good points, but I'll only debate one of them.  The issue of "unbelievability".  The point is that the white lie is obvious to all... it's a polite way of declining the food without acting like an ass.  This assumes, of course, that there is a way to say it without it seeming bald-faced, but even at it's most subtle I think a normally perceptive host will see through it.

Obviously anything you do can backfire on you.  What I was trying to say is that a deafening silence and someone trying to NOT say anything may be just as bad or worse than a polite exchange of lies.

Let me say that the best alternative may indeed be to act as if nothing is wrong... but that's supposing you can get away with it instead of the stony silence I'm describing as a worst case.  And from a moral standpoint, it's still lying.

[cabrales]

John is a great cook, who has made some of the most memorable meals I have ever had.

Adam -- If you want to discuss it, what were the dishes in some of the meals John cooked for you? I guess he doesn't specialize in pastries after all, even though he seems to have pretty advanced questions in that regard.  Are you a "high tech", or cooking utensil/gadget-intensive, cook?  I somehow imagine your cooking in a more "traditional" way.

Six to eight people is a lot.  If you want to discuss it, what types of "ethnic" foods do you tend to prepare?  On the wild boar you cooked this birthday, is that the 12-people meal? I had wanted to ask whether you might have enjoyed the meal differently (not necessarily more) if you had not been the cook.  Do you generally cook on your birthday because you want to? I sometimes wonder what I'm missing in not being able to cook. It would seem that cooking a meal could be linked to eating it in so many ways that both parts could, in certain situations, become more meaningful.  

Also, did you bake your own birthday cake and what was it?  

[A Balic]

Uh, about picking decomposed rabbit bits from a stream. Your wife and her colleagues do this for a living?  :wow:

Scotland is an amazing place.

It's a Science thing.

[jhlurie]

Also, I think that acting like you are full, or no longer hungry, may be less egregious than a sudden stomach ache.

I know I'm tackling this from the standpoint of the guest instead of the host.  As a host, my feelings might be quite different.

[Jinmyo]

It's a Science thing.

Oh, good. That explains all.

"Why did you just shout 'Yow yow yow! Weeeeez!'"

"It's a Science thing."

"Oh."

........

"What's that on your shoulder?"

"It's a Science thing."

"Oh."

[Malawry]

Malawry -- When you are cooking for large groups, wouldn't you have to make some "extra" portions of the "baseline" entree and any dishes accommodating special dietary considerations because people might want seconds?

Well, yeah, ordinarily I have way too much food, but in the case of the portabellos I hadn't bothered. Each mushroom was quite large and there were hearty portions of the sides (gratin potatoes, green beans with a red pepper coulis) to go with. Obviously, I won't be making the same mistake again.

[A Balic]

John is a great cook, who has made some of the most memorable meals I have ever had.

Adam -- If you want to discuss it, what were the dishes in some of the meals John cooked for you? I guess he doesn't specialize in pastries after all, even though he seems to have pretty advanced questions in that regard.  Are you a "high tech", or cooking utensil/gadget-intensive, cook?  I somehow imagine your cooking in a more "traditional" way.

Six to eight people is a lot.  If you want to discuss it, what types of "ethnic" foods do you tend to prepare?  On the wild boar you cooked this birthday, is that the 12-people meal? I had wanted to ask whether you might have enjoyed the meal differently (not necessarily more) if you had not been the cook.  Do you generally cook on your birthday because you want to? I sometimes wonder what I'm missing in not being able to cook. It would seem that cooking a meal could be linked to eating it in so many ways that both parts could, in certain situations, become more meaningful.  

Also, did you bake your own birthday cake and what was it?  

John has cooked a lot of meals that I have been lucky enough to have eaten. Some of the things that he has made is: Confit Rabbit with vanilla risotto, Haggis, swede and potato constructed in the shape of a ziggurat, fresh oyster in glazed with oyster gelee, many great deserts (I think he enjoys making these the most), my favorites being a modern version of a Mont Blanc and a green apple thing, with coils of green spun sugar. And much more.

The most high tech thing I have is a blender, but if I had the cash I would get more utensils. What I do have is a few very good quality items, which makes all the difference in cooking. I tend to make French, Italian, North African, Spanish and South East Asian, ie. whatever is interesting to me at the time. I am interested in food history at the moment, so much of my current cooking is influenced by that. Also, I am interested in raw ingredients, so I tend to by whatever catches my eye, then worry about how to cook it later.eg. last weekend my butcher was selling Blue Mountin Hare (see link), I bought it, invited people around then stank out the kitchen with gamy smell. It was so pungent that I was going to throw it out, until I thought to make ravioli out of it. As I had been reading about the influence of Arabic cuisine on European, I made a vaguely Sicillian/Renaissance Italian stuffing from the hare. It was fantastic, one of the few dishes that I have been happy with. So much cooking is very much about me and enjoying the company of my friends.

The wild boar was for twelve people and yes I most likely would enjoy the meals more if I wasn't the cook, but alot of the satisfaction is in the anticipation and in retrospectively looking back at the event. I didn't have a cake, I didn't even think to get one!

[A Balic]

Sorry, I forgot to add the hare link:

http://walz-naturfoto.de/img1/ca115.jpg

[tommy]

i am of the mindset that really cute animals shouldn't necessarily be eaten.  and this animal is reeeaaally cute.

[Wilfrid]

Tommy, I must be heartless.  I saw a guinea pig on TV this morning and had two immediate thoughts:

1.  Hey, it's really cute; and

2.  I really must get over to that Ecuadorian restaurant in Queens where they roast them.

Same goes for your bunny, I'm afraid.  Cute and edible.

[cabrales]

Haggis, swede and potato constructed in the shape of a ziggurat, fresh oyster in glazed with oyster gelee ...

I tend to make French, Italian, North African, Spanish and South East Asian . . . .  I am interested in food history at the moment, so much of my current cooking is influenced by that. . . . As I had been reading about the influence of Arabic cuisine on European, I made a vaguely Sicillian/Renaissance Italian stuffing from the hare. It was fantastic, one of the few dishes that I have been happy with.

Adam -- I like oyster in oyster gelee too.  (See "What are vegetarians missing" in "General", p. 4 -- Where any of those dishes similar to the one John made for you?)  I'll have to look up what Haggis and ziggurat are.  And I thought you would cook French food, among other things, because it is an important part of the culinary landscape.  That's why I asked about ethnic, as I guess I have not personally thought of French food as etchnic.  

Culinary history interests me, but my interest covers a more narrow subject area (i.e., French cuisine at restaurants in France -- tommy, don't post me a picture, please!).  When I visited Spain (not the Barcelona area), I saw some examples of Moorish architecture and that led me to wonder what Moorish food is like and ask whether aspects of it might be reflected in some versions of Spanish cuisine.

[A Balic]

Tommy don't worry, without their skin, head and paws, they aren't as cute .

[tommy]

Same goes for your bunny, I'm afraid.  Cute and edible.

i often rave about I Trulli's (NYC) rabbit ragu.  i suppose i'm not beyond reproach.

[cabrales]

I must be heartless.  I saw a guinea pig on TV ... I really must get over to that Ecuadorian restaurant in Queens where they roast them.

Wilfrid -- I agree, at least with respect to birdies.  For birdies, cute often means small, and small means fragile bones and all sorts of serving possibilities.  However, a guinea pig has certain visual features that bring to mind a rat, and that might lead me to hesitate (siege of Paris precedents notwithstanding).  Also, were you serious in indicating that there is an Ecuadorian restaurant in Queens that serves them? What is the name of the restaurant?

[Wilfrid]

Wilfrid & Adam -- What is the greatest number of people you have cooked for? Also, Adam -- have you cooked for J Acord?

That is a question I was interested in putting to other eGulleteers, and we probably should start a different thread.

But here goes.  I like to keep it small.  Four is fine.  I have cooked for six and eight, but I can't remember larger parties.  Adam's post reminded me that I have certainly prepared canapes for larger groups.

Here's my reason (apart from having few friends and disliking most people).  I don't have as many opportunities to cook for people as I'd like.  I wish it was every week, but it's never more than once every couple of months.  This causes me to be selfish:  I want to cook the kind of meal I really enjoy cooking (and eating).  This would be essentially a traditional, maybe old-fashioned French meal with quite a number of courses.  A couple of hors d'oeuvres, fish, meat, salad, cheese.  Dessert if they're well-behaved.  I usually prepare different sauces for at least two of the dishes, and I do tend to go for things which require a good deal of prep (boning, stuffing, etc).  What with the shopping and everything, doing this for four people is exhausting.  I don't fancy doing it for twelve.  These days, my Beloved also weighs in with a course of Dominican amuses bouches which would satisfy a peckish elephant.

If I cooked more frequently, then I would doubtless prepare a lot of simpler dishes from other cuisines.  It's the big occasion thing which drives my approach.

[Wilfrid]

(W)ere you serious in indicating that there is an Ecuadorian restaurant in Queens that serves them? What is the name of the restaurant?

Although I am not always wholly serious in my posts, it is a good rule of thumb that, if I am talking about eating odd body parts or unusual animals, I am speaking from the heart.

Annoyingly, I now can't find a name and address for guine pig (or cuy or coypu) consumption, although I am pretty sure I filed it somewhere.  I certainly did have an article which explained that the animals were served, roasted whole on the bone.  I did turn this up in an old Eric Asimov article:

"The truth, of course, is that South and Central American restaurants have always existed in New York City. Strolling the streets of Jackson Heights or Corona in Queens is like a trip to the Andes, with extended families sitting down at neighborhood Argentine spots like El Gauchito for huge platters of ribs, sausages, beef hearts and sweetbreads, or at Tierras Colombianas for a huge, thin steak, served with a fried egg on top and puffy fried pork skin on the side.

On certain summer weekends, you can even find grilled cuy, a prized Ecuadorean specialty otherwise known as guinea pig."

I gather Peruvian restaurants are also a good bet.

[cabrales]

Wilfrid & Adam -- What is the greatest number of people you have cooked for? Also, Adam -- have you cooked for J Acord?

That is a question I was interested in putting to other eGulleteers ... Adam's post reminded me that I have certainly prepared canapes for larger groups. ... I don't have as many opportunities to cook for people as I'd like.  I wish it was every week, but it's never more than once every couple of months.  

Wilfrid -- Yes, I have been wanting to ask that question since I saw Malawry's bio.  The reasons are that I have wondered (1) how somebody cooking for more than, say, two people could have the time to appropriately eat each dish while contemplating/preparing the remaining ones, (2) how occupation of the dual role of diner/chef can limit the type of dishes that could be prepared (e.g., dishes that permit a larger proportion of work to be done in advance) (and the extent to which that might have contributed to the prevalence of restaurants), (3) as alluded to an earlier post, whether the preparation of a meal can confer pleasure by becoming an extension of the meal experience (just like evaluating a meal during its progress and afterwards is, for me, part of the meal experience), and (4) how the different number of people typically dining together within different societies (e.g., certain Chinese "family style" dining arrangements) could affect whether the chef can dine alongside.

Also, why do you not have opportunities to cook for people as frequently as you would like? For example, could you cook the same elaborate meals for you and your Beloved? You mention you use different sauces -- do you offer two-services for a single dish at home? I like two-service dishes at restaurants generally, and wonder whether members have tried them at home.

I'd be interested in hearing what you and Adam typically prepare as canapes too, when you have time.

[Wilfrid]

I love answering questions.  Okay, (1) and (2) together.  I find that a lot of planning is necessary so that one doesn't spend the evening in the kitchen.  Cold hors d'oeuvres obviously prepared in advance.  I find that many other dishes can be brought to a state of near completion, so that I only have to spend five minutes or so in the kitchen finishing them up before I plate them (yes, I almost always plate food; I've gone right off family-style service).  Let me confess, I will use a microwave if necessary to warm up components of a dish - I hate inadvertently cold food.  But I do usually write down a plan for service, showing what should be happening at each stage of the evening. (3) I love planning the menu, and enjoy most of the shopping.  Preparation has elements of sheer hard grind to it, of course, and there are always the disasters along the way.  For an elaborate dinner, work usually starts the day before.

The sauces:  I meant that two of the dishes would each have a contrasting sauce - usually the fish and meat dish, sometimes a hot hors d'oeuvres.  I like the idea of two service dishes, but can't right now remember having served one at home.

Oh yes, and these dinners are infrequent just because of time pressures from all the obvious sources: work, family, and - believe it or not - other interests.  For the same reason, elaborate dinners "a deux" tend to happen on special occasions, although we do make an effort to sit down together Sundays.  Otherwise, we're on different schedules.  My Beloved eats her main meal during the day while tearing about the five boroughs.  I usually eat mine around ten o'clock at night.

[cabrales]

I will use a microwave if necessary to warm up components of a dish ...

we're on different schedules.  My Beloved eats her main meal during the day while tearing about the five boroughs.  I usually eat mine around ten o'clock at night.

Wilfrid -- Your last post has answered a question I've had since reading your bio and certain posts quite a while ago -- why you dine alone a lot when you have a family    

On microwaves, I'm quite dependent on mine. I sometimes use it to heat up certain Campbell's soup (the ones that aren't cream-based, like chicken noodle), Lean Cuisine (my favorite is spaghetti with meatballs, to which I add certain peppercorns) or other frozen dinners.  From watching the Progresso ads and tasting Progresso, I have to admit that it's chunkier and more flavorful than Campbell's chicken soup. However, I still stock the basic Campbell's soups, like chicken noodle and cream of mushroom, and do not substitute Progresso.

[Niall]

I find that a lot of planning is necessary so that one doesn't spend the evening in the kitchen.  Cold hors d'oeuvres obviously prepared in advance.  I find that many other dishes can be brought to a state of near completion, so that I only have to spend five minutes or so in the kitchen finishing them up before I plate them

Just befor Christmas we serve dinner for 12 of our best friends and find that planning, precooking, and re-heating have to be done. We usually plan around what we know we can do..

As to manners, I have no problem with people leaving stuff, and if asked why, saying "thats not my thing" or even just "I don't like it". To graphically portray those feeling is severely bad manners, and should have ellicited an elbow in the ribs from the diners next to her.

[A Balic]

I'd be interested in hearing what you and Adam typically prepare as canapes too, when you have time.

Cabrales, Wilfrid an I have never prepared canapes together . However, when I have had the time to make them I make whatever takes my fancy. There are some regulars (Thai fish cakes, Vietnamese beef in mint leaves), but it tends to vary a lot. The last cocktail party I had involved the these two items, plus: monkfish skewered on rosemary and wrapped in panchetta; venison terrine; chicken liver pate; salmon eggs on buckwheat blini with creme fraiche; various middle eastern filo pastry things; mini pizza with queen scallops; various chicken Asian things; californian rolls; vegetarian nori rolls; steamed pork buns (bought, not made); mango salsa with prawn crackers; Cevapcici (Croatian skinless sausage); Vietnamese spring rolls, Vietnamese rice paper rolls, plus other stuff which I can't remember. Almost everything can be pre-prepared. so its not as much trouble as it looks. Also, it is a lot of fun and I like doing it (I was cooking until four in the morning). Actually, making canapes is a lot less stressful then dinner parties.

Unlike Wilfrid, I have made a consious effort to move away from plated meals (anyway, it is more effective not to plate the type of food I cook). I am by no means a stella cook (I am still rubbish at deserts, most likely because I am not sober at the end of a meal), but I enjoy it and as I don't eat out much it is a good way of socialising. At the moment, we would have people to dinner maybe once a week. We would go to other friends homes for dinner about the same amount. Lucky for me, my friends are great cooks and are very generous.

[cabrales]

There are some regulars (Thai fish cakes, Vietnamese beef in mint leaves), but it tends to vary a lot. The last cocktail party I had involved the these two items, plus: monkfish skewered on rosemary and wrapped in panchetta; venison terrine; chicken liver pate; salmon eggs on buckwheat blini with creme fraiche; various middle eastern filo pastry things; mini pizza with queen scallops; various chicken Asian things; californian rolls; vegetarian nori rolls; steamed pork buns (bought, not made); mango salsa with prawn crackers; Cevapcici (Croatian skinless sausage); Vietnamese spring rolls, Vietnamese rice paper rolls, plus other stuff which I can't remember.

Adam -- Wow!    You made all those items, except for the steamed pork buns?!  Almost every canape item sounds most yummy. For example, I do not even know what Cevapcici (Croatian skinless sausage) is, let alone know how to prepare it.  You mentioned you were up until 4 am, but what was the total preparation time for these canapes?

Wilfrid -- Every week -- that's more like it  

[A Balic]

Cabrales, it would have taken hours and hours (hard to say how many in total, 10-15?)of preparation time, but spread over several weeks.

Cevapcici (CHE-vahp-CHI-CHI) are one of those food items that the Arab empire gave to Europe.Cevap is a local word for kebab, which has its origins in Ottoman Turkey. Cici means small. Basically, they are minced (ground) beef, pork (and sometimes veal) mixed with paprika (also from the Ottomans), onion, garlic and lots of black pepper. This is kneeded together to form and shaped into "cigars" and grilled.

[cabrales]

I had been reading about the influence of Arabic cuisine on European

Adam -- Is Arabic cuisine similar to Asian cuisine, in that it is actually a range of wonderfully diverse cuisines (with, as you know, even a range within, say, Chinese cuisine)?  I know nothing about Arabic cuisine, unfortunately.  When you have time, please consider discussing whether Arabic cuisine affected certain European cuisines more than others, and whether the extent of influence was impacted by factors other than geography and trade routes.

Also, I wonder if your readings into Arabic cuisine shed light on what the role of women in certain Arabic socieities was and/or presently is.  Finally, what types of materials are you reading?  

[A Balic]

Cabrales, I will give the topic some thought (and get my references in order) and post a new thread on the topic after the weekend.