"Ethnic profiling" restaurants

[jhlurie]

This is a spin-off of a discussion started in The Art of Sushi topic. The intention is to carry on with this one aspect of the discussion--although not necessarily being bound to a discussion of Sushi in particular. Discuss the concept of using "ethnic profiling" of the apparent clientele of a restaurant to evaluate it--this can apply to virtually ANY kind of restaurant, any place in the world.

A partial selection of relevent statements from that topic:

torakris said:

Like everyone else I hate to sound racist, but I have never had better than decent sushi from a non-Japanese and the absolute best is from those who train in Japan. I really feel that one of the best indicators outside of Japan is a restaurant with a high Japanese clientele and menus in Japanese.

FoodZealot said:

I have not and would not take offense to anything posted here so far, but just to play devil's advocate on the ethnicity issue, I would humbly point out that not all people who look Japanese are sushi experts - including myself.

mb7o said:

i can't answer what makes sushi great, but the most creative sushi restaurant in seattle has plenty (mostly) non-japanese customers, and the only japanese sushi chef is the owner--all the others are american.

bleachboy said:

To me, the idea that Japanese sushi preferences are superior to American sushi preferences just because the Japanese "invented" sushi is a logical fallacy

SG- said:

Let me ask you this... who would you trust to recommend a burger joint, Japanese or American?

Here in Philly there are a couple of Chinese restaurants that are packed and receive excellent ratings from respected local American reviewers, chowhounders, egulleters, zagats etc. I've been to them and my conclusion is that it's not real chinese food just glorified overpriced americanized chinese food. Crap is crap no matter how well you dress it up. And it shows too, there are usually no Asians in the place for good reason. Likewise in good chinese restaurants you hardly see any Americans because many are unaccustomed to the the authentic versions or find the ingredients too unusual.

Sinbad said:

I lived in Tokyo for 10 years and one of the criterias I had for deciding if I should try a western restaurant was how many westerners were frequenting it, the other side of the argument of using the number of Japanese customers as a benchmark. The absence of western customers to me was an indication that the food was either extremely bastardized (squid-ink pizza with grated wasabai, ginger and nori topping) or extremely poor price/performance ratio. I used this in the beginning before I had developed other means of obtaining restaurant information, and although it propably helped me avaoid a number of duds I don't think ethnic profiling of the customers is a particulary efficient way of deciding where to to eat.

I would never decide to eat at a Sushi place just because they have many Japanese customers, there are so many other ways these days to obtain better information about restaurants.

Carry on...

[Fat Guy]

Two issues:

1) Chefs. All you need to do is eat a Chinese meal prepared by Eddie Schoenfeld and this issue will be put to bed forever.

2) Customers. I've been to plenty of Chinese restaurants that were heavily populated by Chinese-Americans and the food totally sucked. And I've been to Chinese restaurants with mostly white customers that were excellent.

Now it's certainly possible to argue that these are exceptions to a rule. The fact of the matter is that the society that invents a cuisine is most likely to produce the best examples of it and to understand it best on the consumer level. But at most it is a statistical likelihood, rather than a fundamental aspect of being.

[Stone]

Concepts like "best example of cuisine" are somewhat subjective. (Sorry about that.) For example, there are many Chinese restaurants in Chinatown that have predominantly Chinese customers. I've found that my tastes don't necessarily coincide with the tastes of many Chinese, so I wouldn't necessarily choose a Chinese restaurant on that basis. And in fact, I would argue that some of those restaurants serve down-right nasty food by any standard. Although there probably is some measure of "right and wrong" when judging a dish as "Chinese Cuisine" for example, when it comes to enjoying the food, it just depends what you like.

[FoodZealot]

FG: Word.

If I may, part of the discussion in that thread seemed to be around whether it is even possible to have a top notch experience outside the country of its origin. Terms like "real _country_ cuisine", and phrases like "like I've had in _country_" were sometimes used. How 'bout it? French food outside of France? Sushi outside of Japan? Vietnamese food outside of Vietnam? I mean conceptually, not specific cuisines.

FWIW, I think it is reasonable to use "ethnic profiling" (sorry, I dislike the term) as a proxy for authenticity, as long as one leaves room for the possibility that it may suck. [grin]

[jo-mel]

Discuss the concept of using "ethnic profiling" of the apparent clientele of a restaurant to evaluate it--~~~~~~~~

I guess I evaluate a Chinese restaurant by its clientele, --- if I'm there for the first time. But it is hard to judge taste -- or to generalize. I saw a Chinese lady in one of those China Buffet places with a plateful of Sweet/Sour Pork --- when, in my mind, there were other selections that were better. I probably judge more what is in front of a customer than who the customer is. If the tables are set with knives and forks, I pre judge, and if there are only chopsticks in sight, I have a different view. (BTW- I am not Chinese) I know Westerners who know how to, and do, cook good Chinese food, and I've been in Chinese homes where the food was always the same and rather so-so.

To carry this further, I find I judge a Chinese restaurant when the waiter/waitresses/servers are not Chinese. Perhaps unfairly, I might add. The chefs may be talented (and Chinese) but I want the full experience to extend to those who take my order, too. I don't know what to call this bias. I don't know if others feel the same way, or not.

The first time this happened, I was surprised at myself. I wanted to order in Chinese, but couldn't, and I felt cheated. However, I was in a Chinese place in Colorado, and 2 of the Caucasion women COULD speak Chinese, but I still felt a lack of something!

I don't think I answered this too well. If I had my choice between two restaurants, one heavily Chinese, the other not, I'd go Chinese. Unfair? I guess.

[jhlurie]

Do Chinese people eat food in bad Chinese restaurants? Sure. But one question you have to ask is "are they eating the same thing as me?" Also, I suppose, it might help to know what part of China they are from, their economic status, etc. It may be un-politically correct to say this, but not all Chinese people are created equal--at least in terms of how much or how little their taste buds are in sync with ours. Actually maybe that ISN'T so un-Politically correct. It applies to all of us.

[guajolote]

i've found that a dutch restaurant without any dutch patrons usually sucks.

[Varmint]

i've found that a dutch restaurant without any dutch patrons usually sucks.

As does a dutch restaurant with lots of dutch patrons.

[Megaroo]

I agree that it usually comes down to a couple of things:

1) What type of food are YOU looking for? Are you looking for traditional Chinese food or the watered down American version that we see so often in buffets? There's a BIG difference.

2) I think it really does matter who you're eating with. I have a friend who I work with who is from China and has only been here three years. Once he took me out to a place nearby that he liked. I asked him about another restaurant about two blocks away and he explained that the one we went to was more traditional, like what the middle class in China eats. The other one? "Cheap, poor class food! Don't waste your money!"

[jo-mel]

Also, I suppose, it might help to know what part of China they are from-------

That's another factor to reckon. That ---- and about "taste buds being in sync.". I've known Southern Chinese who turn up their noses at, say, chili laden foods, or heavier Eastern dishes. They have their favorite, built-in tastes. Just as I carry my New England prejudices for corn or clam chowder, and look down on Manhattan Clam Chowder, ----so do regional Chinese have their biases..

In my dealing with Chinese foods, I've found that my neutral-ness (is there such a word?) is a plus. I love it all. It has to be good, of course, but I'm not set in any one of the regions.

Such a complex topic! PC or not, we are what we are, and this includes our tastes. A delicate, subtle broth should have as much weight as a sauce with depth.

Back to the topic --- I guess we judge a restaurant because of our own expectations, and those expectations are influenced by our own experiences. I want to hear Chinese music in a Chinese restaurant --- not soft jazz or anything else. I guess that is ethnic profiling, too. I'm guilty!

[Mayhaw Man]

i've found that a dutch restaurant without any dutch patrons usually sucks.

As does a dutch restaurant with lots of dutch patrons.

Do Dutch restaurants drop a single check on the table or do they make everyone go Dutch?

Ugghh Sorry about that. I should probably use the bad joke key and delete

[MatthewB]

i've found that a dutch restaurant without any dutch patrons usually sucks.

As does a dutch restaurant with lots of dutch patrons.

Russ' is pretty good.

I'm going to take Bux there when he visits.

[bilrus]

There are people from all culures wth good and bad taste. If you went by the makeup of the clienteleand the popularity of the restaurant, you would think Cheesecake Factory and TGI Fridays were the best examples of American Cuisine.

[Fat Guy]

1) What type of food are YOU looking for? Are you looking for traditional Chinese food or the watered down American version that we see so often in buffets? There's a BIG difference.

I've seen plenty of Chinese-Americans at the most awful Chinese buffets, and I know several white people who have much better taste in Chinese food than all but the most serious Chinese epicures.

Anybody who judges a restaurant based on the chef or the clientele needs to be prepared to be wrong. There are things we all learn to look for in restaurants, but anybody who dines out a lot will surely agree that sometimes all the warning signs are wrong and sometimes all the positive signs turn out to be false.

[jo-mel]

As 'Fat Guy' and 'bilrus' say ---- judging a restaurant by the clientele, chefs, or popularity can be misleading. A restaurant may get a critic's rave and the word gets out that this is the new chic place to go. And it may BE- pretty special. People even line up to get in. But sometime the chef moves on, and the food changes, BUT -- that line is still there! That has happened in NY's Chinatown. Some places are the 'in' place to be, no matter what is happening in the kitchen.

[Hest88]

Well, I'm Chinese and when I'm looking for authentic Cantonese food I'm looking for what I consider to be real Cantonese food. That does mean, to me, that if a restaurant is pre-dominately full of Western faces then I will immediately discount it. If it's full of Asian faces then it will not necessarily have great food, but at least I know it will have a fairly authentic flavor, and probably a few signature dishes it does really well. So, I guess it's really more of a matter of getting authentic food as opposed to inauthentic food. Perhaps "great" is not so much the criteria.

[Pan]

I essentially agree, Hest88. A restaurant with all or mostly Chinese people in it can really suck, but if I see nothing but non-Chinese faces in a Chinese restaurant, I take that as an indication that the food, if not bad, is probably not authentic (there, another loaded word) and that I probably wouldn't think much of it. Probably an especially good sign is when there are several 4-tops or some big tables taken by Chinese people in a restaurant in an area outside of a Chinatown. And I give Grand Sichuan in Chelsea as an example of that.

Edited November 15, 2003 by Pan (log)

[Squeat Mungry]

i've found that a dutch restaurant without any dutch patrons usually sucks.

As does a dutch restaurant with lots of dutch patrons.

Look for a Dutch restaurant with lots of Indonesian patrons.

Squeat (Used to live in Holland)

[Fat Guy]

Pan, you probably went to Grand Sichuan in its early days, right? What I remember -- both in Chelsea and Midtown -- was that in the beginning those places were not destinations for the Chinese-American big-table groups. The general New York mostly-not-Asian audience was firmly established first, and the Chinese audience came later. At least that's the way I remember it.

I think a lot of non-Asian-Americans are about 50 years behind the times with respect to how they think of Asian-Americans. Although there are a lot of new Asian immigrants arriving all the time, there's also a very significant assimilated Asian population (as there has been since the early days of America). My high school was approximately 30% Asian and the overwhelming majority of the Asian kids were born here, didn't speak more than a few words of Chinese (or Korean, or whatever), and mostly favored pizza, deli, and the other stuff that we all ate. They may have had somewhat more exposure to Chinese wedding banquets growing up than the average New Yorker, but they didn't have the kind of knowledge that would make them into restaurant mavens without a lot of additional study. Back then, I went to Woo Chon with friends who were only one generation removed from Korea, and I had to take the lead on ordering -- it was my second visit and their first.

If you go to Katz's deli, you'll find almost no Jews working the counter or waiting tables. And you'll find a totally heterogeneous clientele. Nobody judges Italian restaurants by the number of Italian-Americans dining there. It would be patently hilarious for someone to suggest that African-Americans know anything in particular about African food -- we have some African immigrants in New York, but most American blacks can trace their American lineage back a lot farther than most American Jews and Italians. Of course Jews and Italians aren't as visually identifiable against the backdrop of a room full of white people as Asians and blacks are, but that's a visual miscue that ignores the cultural reality of America and especially New York. It's only a matter of time before we all start thinking of Chinese-Americans as just Americans. And that realization will carry with it -- for better or worse -- the realization that they don't know anything more about Chinese food than the blacks, Jews, and Italians. Perhaps 50 years from now, it will be as unusual to see Chinese people working in Chinese restaurants as it is to see Jews working deli counters. That's how America works.

[Pan]

You make a lot of sense, Fat Guy. And yeah, I think you're right that there weren't so many Chinese people eating at Grand Sichuan early on, though one could also say that neither location was nearly as crowded generally as now, either. Actually, I tried the Chelsea location simply because I had passed the place a few times. I was shocked at how good it was, whereupon I told my parents, posted to Chowhound, etc. (No, I'm not claiming credit for the restaurant's success!)

Edited November 15, 2003 by Pan (log)

[sandra]

I saw a Chinese lady in one of those China Buffet places with a plateful of Sweet/Sour Pork --- when, in my mind, there were other selections that were better.

Every Chinese person eating in that restaurant is not going to like everything that is a "speciality"

There are many Mexicans that can't stand huitlacoche, plenty of French that don't eat foie gras, or Scots that don't eat haggis - this does not make a restaurant better or worse...

I think the fact that they offer a choice, even when their clientele is mixed or dominantly Chinese, makes them more interesting.

[jo-mel]

Every Chinese person eating in that restaurant is not going to like everything that is a "speciality"

I think the fact that they offer a choice, even when their clientele is mixed or dominantly Chinese, makes them more interesting.

About the Chinese lady with the S/S Pork --- that was probably a mis-judgement on my part. I didn't know anything about the woman, if she was an ABC or whatever. But it was my first reaction -- especially when I was selecting the Fried Oysters and whole shrimp - smugly. It was 'ethnic profiling' in reverse.

I've only been to those Buffets a couple or three times. But now I see signs offering Chinese, Japanese and Italian selections in the same Buffets. Talk about your 'melting pot'!!

[budrichard]

I would expect that 'ethnic profiling' would yield a restaurant where the food is certainly adequate and the prices are reasonable. Very few individuals would spend a disproportionate amount of money on food they consider there own culture. Indian restaurants do a good job with 'Buffets' at reasonable prices such as 'Sher a Punjab' on Devon St in Chicago. When I dine at 'Dancing Ganesha's', an upscale Indian restaurant in Milwaukee, the food is extremely good but they charge for each condiment and the bill for 4 people can easily exceed $100+ without beverages. There are not a lot of Indian's dining at Dancing Ganesha's.

My opthamoligist recently partnered with a Vietnamese doctor. When she asked where to go for good Vietnamese food in the Kenosha-Racine area, I told her, Argyle St in Chicago and she agreed emphatically! My use of ethnic profiling will help assure a quality meal at a reasonable price. There are bad 'ethnic' restaurants as with any type of restaurant. A bad sign is if there in no one in the restaurant during the dinner hour. Obviously these types of places will not give you a 'gourmet' experience but quite frankly, I am tired of the 'gourmet' experience where I pay a lot of money for for not so great food. I haven't tried 'Shanghai Terrace' in Chicago yet but I would expect very high prices for not that much better food. Our last foray in China Town resulted in us sharing the table with 3 Chinese gentleman, having a good meal, great experience and a $17 bill before tip.

I will continue to use ethnic profiling along with other aids when dining out. It does not assure a quality experience but sure helps. -Dick

[Pan]

Fat Guy, there was something I wanted to add about Grand Sichuan Chelsea (which, of course, preceded the Midtown location by several years): I think the Chinese clientele came as word got around that the chef had moved from the original Canal St. location to 24 St. I don't think they were attracted by the preexisting non-Chinese clientele to any great extent. Of course, this is all guessing on my part. What do you think?

Edited November 15, 2003 by Pan (log)

[Fat Guy]

I think there was probably something of a migration of the hardcore customers from Chinatown to Chelsea, and I think most (but not all) of those customers were Chinese-Americans, but I also think a Chelsea and wider Manhattan audience came to the restaurant thanks to a bunch of white food critics, Chowhound users, word-of-mouth, etc.

A bunch of us white people went to Hunan Cottage in New Jersey a few weeks ago, and the white-guy-in-chief who did our ordering did such an outstanding job that, when our meal was served, the Chinese-Americans at the surrounding tables were all craning their necks to see what the heck we were eating. You know you've ordered well when that happens.