Rules Of The Game

[PDC]

I had originally posted this in slightly different form on the "Charlie Trotter's Superdud" thread, but thought it probably was OT and needed it's own thread so I edited it a bit and stuck it here.

I look forward to the community's answers/suggestions/whatever. Note that I'm not after anything necessarily specific to my case, just general guidelines:

__________________________________________

As someone who's a relative newbie to "fine dining", I have a question: How does one educate oneself to appreciate high-end dining? There was a post in the Trotter's thread that said you have to "work up the ladder" to a very high-end restaurants. So...how do you do that? What would be a list of say, ten restaurants in the US that one could use to refine one's tastebuds? Or maybe the regional coordinators could all chime in with ten in each of their regions?

Secondly, I'd be interested to find out about do's and do not's in interaction with service, ordering (or not ordering) wines and drinks (I had no idea ordering a cocktail before a meal was a major faux pas, for example), how to find out what a restaurants top-of-the-line dishes are so you can maximize your dining pleasure (I know, "reviews", but what's a good archive or source? Not Zagat from what I've read on this site), and, just as importantly, what not to order (read Kitchen Confidential, got the "no fish on Mondays" thing).

Despite the presence of Food Network, sites like this, and abundance of books etc. many of us are still a bit wary of going to the "very best" restaurants because we don't know how to play the game. One of the posts on the Trotter's thread said waiters can "smell a rookie", so how does one go into a place without appearing to be a rookie?

If something could be put together as well as the EGCI has been, it would be an amazing resource to those of us who want to jump in to super-high-end dining but are a bit intimidated (rightfully so too, judging from some of the stuff on the Trotter's thread). "Fine Dining For Dummies", maybe?

-Dave

[Carolyn Tillie]

Sounds like a job for eGCI!

[Monica Bhide]

What a delightful topic -- any volunteers to teach this..

[Sandra Levine]

a perennial

[Busboy]

PDC As the guy who originally put up the "smell a rookie" post, I thought I'd take a stab at a reply in between my real work, but I started getting a little carried away ("Types of rookies," "How to spot one" etc.)

I realized, though, that the whole thing sounds more harsh than it is. Especially in the best places, a call ahead or a couple of words with server or maitre d' will generally get them on your side and get you excellent service. Waiters can tell a rookie, (let's change that to "newbie", sounds less harsh), but they don't necessarily dislike them.

Not sure that a thread that doesn't overlap with the many wise posts Sandra linked to is quite worthy of the eGCI, but, if you'd like, PDC, I'm happy to shed whatever light I can on the subject or, even better coordinate the observations of people with more recent waiting experience.

If Monica will teach me to cook Indian.

[budrichard]

I would suggest biulding your 'Fine dining' pyramid by working on the foundation. A knowledge of food, cooking techniques and the classics along with a few years of eating at various establishments on the culinary ladder are needed to make the most of your dining experience. Of course, you can just make a res and go eat but may not get the full enjoyment. Without experience, of course the waiter has the edge and you will be loath to send back a $200 bottle of wine that tastes like crap.

In short, there is no easy or quick road to experience. Decide what you like on your own and don't let others make you feel different or less becuase you don't like something.

It's a little like Opera maybe, you really aren't going to enjoy it until you are past 35-40. -Dick

[ExtraMSG]

Jump in with both feet and try everything. Never eat the same dish twice or at the same restaurant twice in the same month. Eat chef's tasting menus if you can. Take chef or server recommendations. Cook the standards using the best ingredients you can.

[robyn]

PDC - First I want to point out a somewhat mistaken point of view in your posting. You are under the impression that *you* have to be worthy of a restaurant. To the contrary - a great restaurant will try to please *you*. I will give you an example. One night many years ago - my husband and I had reservations at a 3 star Michelin restaurant with rooms in a small town in France. We mis-estimated our driving time somewhat - and it rained like the dickens getting there. So we arrived 20 minutes before our reservation - scrambled upstairs to our room to change - and arrived for dinner still half-soaked and with bad headaches. Now we know at fancy French restaurants - you are not supposed to order hard liquor before dinner - you are supposed to have an apertif. But those headaches demanded hard liquor! So I ordered a gin and tonic - a drink virtually unknown in those parts of France. And what did the servers do? Did they call me a worthless piece of American you-know-what? No they didn't. They all huddled together - and tried to figure out how to make a gin and tonic that would please me. Which they did. And that set the mood for a great dinner.

It is true that one must spend some time learning "how to eat". It isn't easy to do in the United States - where the eating industry isn't very organized - and where many so-called "great" restaurants are simply this month's fad. It is easier in France - where everything is very organized - from the 1 "knife and fork" local places which had good food -to the 3 star culinary shrines. There is much criticism of the Michelin ratings - that they are too slow to grant appropriate stars to new places - and too slow to remove them from fading places. Some of that criticism is warranted. Nevertheless - the system is better than no system at all. My husband and I learned about food and eating in France when we were younger - and I can heartily recommend that approach. It certainly beats the current approach in the US and many other countries - that the chefs and the restaurants are the stars - and their goal is gaining public acclaim and notoriety as opposed to pleasing customers. And - for many places we've dined at - the only customers worth pleasing are celebrities. In our opinion - any customer who is paying the freight at an expensive restaurant is entitled to be treated with dignity and good food.

I cannot tell you how many times we have been disappointed in recent years by restaurants whose "hype" fails to live up to the dining experience one actually encouters. For example - since you mentioned Charlie Trotter's in Chicago - I will mention another restaurant in Chicago - MK's - where we dined a few years ago. It was supposed to be good - but our appetizer came before we had given our wine order - and it was obvious that our "dinner timetable" was about 60 minutes. Totally unacceptable. We told the staff to "slow it down" - which it did - grudgingly. We were evicted from our table and served dessert in the bar to accommodate the next seating. Later I read in the Wall Street Journal that MK was trying to turn its tables 4-5 times a night. You cannot have a fine dining experience in that environment.

On the other hand - we have had some very excellent dining experiences. The most recent was at the Dining Room at the Ritz Carlton in Buckhead (Atlanta). Fabulous chef - meal pacing - and service. The give-away-at-the-end-of-the-meal dessert trolley was to die for :). Both of these restaurants got good reviews. So sometimes it's just live and learn .

One thing you should definitely do is learn what you like to eat. There is so much "trendy" food these days. A lot of it photographs better than it tastes. Perhaps it is amusing to go to a restaurant where everything is raw - or everything is piled in a huge tower -but my husband and I favor chefs whose primary emphasis is taste. That is not to say that everything we like was perfected 40 years ago. For example - I like some of the new "foam" things I see on menus. But "foam" simply for the sake of "foam" isn't amusing. If your favorite love is meat and potatoes - you can experiment with raw fish - but you will probably love the restaurant that does the best meat and potatoes in the world - as opposed to the best raw fish in the world. I happen to love chicken - and one of the best meals I ever had in my whole life was eating the best possible chicken one could ever have in a restaurant in France that specializes in chicken.

One way to learn more about food is by learning how to cook a bit - finding out what you like - what you don't like. Order things over the internet. We order things we can't get locally all the time - cheese from France - chocolates from New York and Chicago - meats from restaurant purveyors.

Go to lesser restaurants - and work your way up. Refine your taste buds. Don't be afraid to say - "this doesn't taste good" when it doesn't taste good - or "this service is unacceptable" when you are treated shabbily. If you ordered the meat rare - and it comes out well done - send it back.

Put your trust in a restaurant you think is very good - or great. Ask the wait-staff for recommendations - what are the chef's signature dishes? - what wine will go with this course or that course - most restaurants will pair glasses of wine with courses these days (and never be afraid to ask what that wine costs - at most really good places - the staff will try to satisfy you while staying within your budget if you let them know what you'd care to spend). If the restaurant is very good - or great - the game isn't "catch a rookie" - the game is "please the customer". The first time my husband and I ever had hot fois gras - we had never heard of it before. But it was a house specialty - and the chef insisted that we try it. Which - to our delight - we did.

And - when you are happy - let everyone know that too. I have eaten at many restaurants where I didn't speak one word of the language everyone else spoke - but everyone knew I was happy because of the big smile on my face. Please feel free to ask questions - here - or at restaurants - this whole eating thing is a lifetime learning process which should be a pleasurable experience. And if a restaurant disappoints you after you have spent a lot of money - it is generally the restaurant's fault - not yours. Robyn

[Cusina]

I'm decidedly a non-expert here. I'm very much in PDC's shoes as a novice fine diner.

I recently picked up Culinary Artistry by Andrew Dornenburg and Karen Page as suggested by this thread. (Go ahead, buy it through the eGullet Amazon link over there and support a great site!)

It has been a very engaging read and I think it will help me to appreciate on a deeper level the amount of skill, creativity and experience needed to create really fine cuisine. Plus, it's making ME a better and more confident cook. Bonus!

[tommy]

(I had no idea ordering a cocktail before a meal was a major faux pas, for example),

"rules" like that are just plain silly and best ignored. the dining experience is just that: an experience. appreciate it on your terms, and progress at your own pace, in your own way. you're cheating yourself otherwise.

Edited November 14, 2003 by tommy (log)

[Busboy]

Personally, I don't think anything stirs up the appetite better than a dry martini before dinner.

And if alcohol dulls the palate so much, why do they always serve the best wine last?

Edited so that my spelling of "martini" didn't make it look like I'd already been drinking them

Edited November 14, 2003 by Busboy (log)

[bleachboy]

On the topic of "hard liquor before dinner":

It seems to me like this is a "rule" followed by only a few. Charlie Trotter being one of them. I have been to numerous fine dining establishments that offer cocktails before dinner, and have never gotten the impression that to order one would be a faux pas. As Robyn correctly pointed out, however, the staff's job is to make you comfortable. If you want a martini before dinner, I say knock yourself out.

I don't believe that alcohol "dulls the palate" any more than it dulls every other part of your body. If you are a 16 year old schoolgirl I would not recommend hard liquor before a fancy meal. Otherwise, I doubt it would hurt. That being said, I recommend giving serious consideration to starting your meal with champagne. It's always elegant.

I was at Trio recently for my birthday. The first food/drink item they served was a highball with about two ounces of Noilly Prat (French vermouth), some ice cubes, and a lovely pear slice for garnish.

[Busboy]

Actually, I think one of the reasons vermouth, Lillet and a number of other wine-based apertifs were developed was to keep people off the hard stuff before dinner -- not just for palate protection, but because wine was more readily available in large swaths of Europe, and because people generally associated wine with dining and drinking the hard stuff with a somewhat separate activity.

[Hest88]

You are under the impression that *you* have to be worthy of a restaurant. To the contrary - a great restaurant will try to please *you*.

What Robyn said. ;) Eating is definitely enhanced by knowledge, as just about all endeavors are, but it's not like playing a violin. It's about eating. A natural and imperative human need. A restaurant should be about pleasing the diner and one should never be made to uncomfortable for their dining experience (unless, of course, someone is being rude or obnoxious). And like everything else, a million people can say something tastes good and if it doesn't taste good to you that doesn't mean you're uncouth. It just means you're you.

So my advice would be:

1) Go with the attitude that you're there to enjoy yourself.

2) Be polite and sincere. A good waiter will be happy to explain unfamiliar foods and terms.

3) Try foods you've never had before and always try something more than once if you didn't enjoy it the first time.

4) And remember---it's just food. Not a cure for cancer.

[robyn]

You are under the impression that *you* have to be worthy of a restaurant. To the contrary - a great restaurant will try to please *you*.

What Robyn said. ;) Eating is definitely enhanced by knowledge, as just about all endeavors are, but it's not like playing a violin. It's about eating. A natural and imperative human need. A restaurant should be about pleasing the diner and one should never be made to uncomfortable for their dining experience (unless, of course, someone is being rude or obnoxious). And like everything else, a million people can say something tastes good and if it doesn't taste good to you that doesn't mean you're uncouth. It just means you're you.

So my advice would be:

1) Go with the attitude that you're there to enjoy yourself.

2) Be polite and sincere. A good waiter will be happy to explain unfamiliar foods and terms.

3) Try foods you've never had before and always try something more than once if you didn't enjoy it the first time.

4) And remember---it's just food. Not a cure for cancer.

You're absolutely correct - and not only because you agree with me :). The most important parts of the dining experience are a chef who likes to please his customers - and a customer who enjoys eating good food. And that's true whether you're eating in a local rib joint - or one of the world's most famous restaurants. I am almost tempted to ridicule people who think it's very complicated - but then I remember how neurotic and anxious I was when I was in my 20's (a long time ago) - and taking my first baby steps in the mysterious (and expensive) world of "high end dining".

I think the difference today is that good food used to be an end in itself - even for the very highest of high end chefs. But things changed over the years (it didn't happen overnight - and it didn't happen yesterday). Today there is so much more - the TV shows - the cook books - the "food weekends" at high end hotels - being "trendy". Just complicates things more for those people who are just starting their journeys. Take care, Robyn

[Mayhaw Man]

Go to lesser restaurants - and work your way up. Refine your taste buds. Don't be afraid to say - "this doesn't taste good" when it doesn't taste good - or "this service is unacceptable" when you are treated shabbily. If you ordered the meat rare - and it comes out well done - send it back.

Put your trust in a restaurant you think is very good - or great. Ask the wait-staff for recommendations - what are the chef's signature dishes? - what wine will go with this course or that course - most restaurants will pair glasses of wine with courses these days (and never be afraid to ask what that wine costs - at most really good places - the staff will try to satisfy you while staying within your budget if you let them know what you'd care to spend). If the restaurant is very good - or great - the game isn't "catch a rookie" - the game is "please the customer". The first time my husband and I ever had hot fois gras - we had never heard of it before. But it was a house specialty - and the chef insisted that we try it. Which - to our delight - we did.

And - when you are happy - let everyone know that too. I have eaten at many restaurants where I didn't speak one word of the language everyone else spoke - but everyone knew I was happy because of the big smile on my face. Please feel free to ask questions - here - or at restaurants - this whole eating thing is a lifetime learning process which should be a pleasurable experience. And if a restaurant disappoints you after you have spent a lot of money - it is generally the restaurant's fault - not yours. Robyn

I am the first to admit that I spend way too much of my work day reading posts on fine site and that there are many times I have something to add to a thread but do not post due to work constraints (both the time to post it and an honest feeling that I really should try to do something to put food on the table other than lurk on eGullet). The funny part of it is that often by the time I get home and turn on the box I have either forgotten what the hell I was going to say or someone has posted a similar thought and another post by me would just be piling on in the "yeah! me too!what he/she said" school of posting.

Now. With all of that prefacing and mumbling around I would like to say what a brilliant post Robyn contributed. It is exactly what I had in mind this afternoon when I could not spend 15 minutes typing at work. My stories would have been different (not as interesting or well told) and I would have worded it differently, but I would like to think that the general feel of the post would have been the same. Nice work says I

I truly believe that after someone has worked their way up and around some interesting, well cooked and served food that they should be able to march into anywhere and feel confidant that they have the tools they need to take a stab at some seriously fine dining.

To me, one of the keys is having enough confidence to say to your server "I have never dined here before but I know it is supposed to be great. What do you reccomend and what kind of wine do you think I should have with the courses? Should I just do a "by the glass thing"? What gives? I really want to enjoy this place. Help me out and we will keep coming back. Please."

While that may seem a bit basic, I have found (from both sides of the menu, server and diner) that those people are very pleased to show you what they know and to help you enjoy something that, in most cases anyway, they enjoy as much as you do. Humans sharing knowledge with each other is damn basic to our needs. It makes everybody feel better to both take in and to disseminate information to others.

The key, as far as I can see it, to enjoying the fine dining experience is to be open and honest with everyone involved and your experience is going to be 100% better than someone who sits like a lump and does not interact with the servers, sommelliers, etc.. Many times in the last weeks I have read posts (see that whole Adrober debacle)in which diners were unhappy with some facet of the dining experience that annoyed them because they did not understand it. Perhaps their experience would have been completely different had they merely asked a question or requested a slightly different service technique. After all, we are paying them. They need us. The places that behave, in the long run, like they don't need us probably won't have a long run. The customer, in my opinion, is not always right, but neither is the restaurant right all of the time either.

I personally love fine dining. It's fun. It's interesting. It beats staying home and eating that San Francisco Treat.

I see fine dining as going to the theater and being allowed to sit on the stage during the performance. The best part is that during the performance one of the actors leans over and says "These are your lines. Get Busy. You ARE a part of this production".

[Bux]

(I had no idea ordering a cocktail before a meal was a major faux pas, for example),

"rules" like that are just plain silly and best ignored. the dining experience is just that: an experience. appreciate it on your terms, and progress at your own pace, in your own way. you're cheating yourself otherwise.

It's hard for me to respond without saying, that in spite of the fact that I, and most of the people whose company I enjoy when eating in fine restaurants tend not to drink hard liquor until after the meal, I don't think it's a major faux pas to have a cocktail before a meal. There are also cocktails and cocktails. A bellini is not the high alcohol drink a martini is, for instance. A bellini is wine based and the sort of thing that's very common in fine French restaurants in France.

I can think of many reasons not to order a cocktail and while not wanting to consume too much alcohol might be among them, that wouldn't be my primary reason. I think cocktails are a poor value in terms of enjoying my meal. A few cocktails may be more than the price of a bottle of wine that would make my meal better. If you want to enjoy food the way I do, you might try my advice, but it you want to enjoy food on your terms and those terms include relaxing at the bar, or even at the table, before ordering dinner, enjoy a cocktail and make it as potent as you want. If you feel it got in the way of enjoying dinner, you can alter your habits the next time. I've certainly adjusted my style many times along the way. We all evolve as do our habits and customs. When I know a restaurant will set out a nice assorment of hors d'oeuvres for me while I'm still reading the menu, I will probably have a drink before dinner. My choice then might be bubbly or a wine based cocktail.

My take on rules is not so much to ignore them, but to know when to break them on your terms. Maybe that's no so different from what tommy suggests.

[robyn]

Mayhaw Man - Thanks for the compliments. I am glad that I am retired - and I am a fast typist. So I have the time to say what others would also say if they had the time.

I tried to look up the "Adrober" debacle - but couldn't find it. Can you point me in the right direction?

Apart from all of the philosophy - there are perhaps some basic nuts and bolts rules to keep in mind. For example - if you are going to a really big deal restaurant - and you are not a "regular" - try to avoid Friday and Saturday nights - and Valentine's Day :) - if at all possible. Go during the week. The staff will be less pressured - and so will you. Many world class restaurants serve lunch - at bargain prices compared to dinner. Unless the restaurant is a "power lunch" venue for the rich and famous in a city like New York - lunch can be a relatively inexpensive way to eat great food in a relaxed setting. Just don't do a lunch like this if you have to be back at work by 1:30 - or have a 5 pm deadline the same day :).

Note that I live in Jacksonville Florida - so I am never a regular at great restaurants :(. With most of them - I only get there once in a lifetime. But staff who might be too busy to refill my water glass on a Saturday night can usually spend lots of time with me on a Wednesday night. Everyone is more relaxed when the people who arrived for the 8:00 seating aren't still waiting at the bar at 9:00. These ideas won't necessarily insure success - but they will maximize your chances. I'm sure that if we all put on our thinking caps - we can come up with other "basic nuts and bolts" suggestions. Robyn

[Mayhaw Man]

Try "Charlie Trotter Superdud" which started with an intial and somewhat (I believe, I could be wrong and I do not want to be responsible for trailing that long and increasingly digressing discussion here).

It is very interesting (all 10,000 pages of it) and should be read (once again I am being careful to state that this is my opinion)0 from start to finish, even if it takes a while. It is an example of what is great about interactive media being used by smsrt, opinionated, and sometimes wickedly funny people.

[robyn]

Bux - I see that you are active in terms of France. Let me tell you a little story that I think neatly ties up the issues of France - and drinking hard liquor - and knowing what to do/not do at fancy places - and how to express one's self when things aren't going right.

My husband and I were very fortunate to have a mentor when we learned how to eat at fine restaurants. A business colleague about 20 years our senior - who had served in France during WWII. After WWII - he spent about 3 months in France every year. One of his best friends in the world was Nino - the head bartender at the George V. On our second or third trip to France to see our friend - I got a bad cold. It was late winter. I am not much of a "brown spirits" person - but everyone decided that I could benefit from some Johnny Walker Black. This was not something to have at dinner - it was definitely something for mid-afternoon :). So me - my husband - our friend - and Nino went to Joe Allen's - and they ordered me a double Johnny Walker Black - straight up.

I tasted it - and although - like I said - I am not a "brown spirits person" - it didn't taste right - it was too rough. I was reluctant to say so - but finally said something. My husband tasted it - our friend tasted it - and then Nino tasted it. All of them are scotch drinkers - and all agreed it wasn't Johnny Walker Black.

So they summoned the waiter to the table. And told him that. The waiter got all huffy - denied the "drink switch" - and basically said - "who the heck do you think you are?". Well - my husband and our friend were basically "nobodies". And if they had been the only 2 people with me - I think we would have had an ugly scene. But Nino got up (he was pretty short - but he got up tall as he could) - and said in a grand way - "I am the head bartender at the George V - and this is not Johnny Walker Black!". He did everything but throw the contents of the glass in the waiter's eye. And the waiter apologized - went back - and got me a drink which everyone agreed was Johnny Walker Black. I couldn't swear to it - I just know it was a lot smoother - and I forgot about my cold after I drank it :).

Guess the moral of the story is sometimes all of the stuff I mentioned in the first paragraph doesn't matter - it just helps to go drinking with the head bartender from the George V :). Robyn

[robyn]

Try "Charlie Trotter Superdud" which started with an intial and somewhat (I believe, I could be wrong and I do not want to be responsible for trailing that long and increasingly digressing discussion here).

It is very interesting (all 10,000 pages of it) and should be read (once again I am being careful to state that this is my opinion)0 from start to finish, even if it takes a while. It is an example of what is great about interactive media being used by smsrt, opinionated, and sometimes wickedly funny people.

Can't tell a lie. I only read about 1/3 the thread - and then started to nod out. My husband and I go to Chicago about every 2-3 years - and have had some very good meals there. Especially lots of ethnic food we can't find at home (including such basic staples as Italian).

Have never been to CT. But - from the description - it sounds like restaurants like Jean Georges in New York - and Azul in Miami. Very cutting edge - very intellectual. You feel out of place if you're not in black head to toe. At best your taste buds will be challenged - and you will appreciate the interior design. And you will feel trendy. But you'll never think that anything you eat is "yummy". You will never say to the person you're dining with - "no - I won't share - I want it all" :). If you drop a morsel on the floor - you won't try to distract everyone around you while you try to pick it up.

I have eaten at quite a few restaurants like this - and - although I know they have their fans - they are not my cup of tea. Deconstructivist/intellectual architecture is a little boring. Deconstructivist/intellectual food is a lot boring. I want "yummy". Like when I put the food in my mouth - my mouth should be excited (sorry - I edited this sentence for content - didn't know if this was a PG audience). Just my two cents. Robyn

[PDC]

Hey everyone-

Thanks for all your responses and links so far. This is all great stuff. I knew I was coming to the right place to ask what I'm asking.

-Dave

[bleachboy]

Have never been to CT. But - from the description - it sounds like restaurants like Jean Georges in New York - and Azul in Miami. Very cutting edge - very intellectual. You feel out of place if you're not in black head to toe. At best your taste buds will be challenged - and you will appreciate the interior design. And you will feel trendy. But you'll never think that anything you eat is "yummy". You will never say to the person you're dining with - "no - I won't share - I want it all" :). If you drop a morsel on the floor - you won't try to distract everyone around you while you try to pick it up.

I don't know that I would label CT in that way (I have never been to those restaurants you mentioned either). I ate the same meal Adrober did, and thought it was definitely tasty. Charlie Trotter's focus is more on sourcing out unbelievably good ingredients.

Nobody should ever go into a fine dining place and expect unbelievably, soul-satisfyingly good food, manna prepared by god himself, and lots of it. Food just doesn't get that good. For that, they should find a really good burger or pizza, IMO.

[Cusina]

Robyn, what a great story. I need to start dining with bartenders.

I too started out reading the CT superdud thread, even posted a response or two, but lost interest when things got defensive. Maybe I should go back and give it another go.

There is a similar novice thread happening in the wine area on this site. I think it's interesting to compare the responses to that thread and this one. There the suggestions were basically: read lots of books, taste lots of wine and keep notes. They said it much more eloquently of course, but I think that same advice might hold true here as well.

I'll suggest another book. Alice Waters' Chez Panisse Cafe Cookbook. She gives a lot of insight as to the Charlie Trotter style of cooking. Her cafe in Berkley is much more casual than CT, but her commitment to fresh ingredients prepared in the best way possible is evident. She writes in a friendly, passionate voice so it is an easy book to spend time with.

I have a weekly library habit and almost every week I come out with a cookbook or two. Ms. Waters' book was this weeks selection along with an incredibly beautiful book on Artisan Baking by Maggie Glezer. (It's almost too beautiful, I find myself VERY hungry after I put it down.) It's been a great way for me to "devour" a lot of experiences without emptying my wallet.

[robyn]

Have never been to CT.  But - from the description - it sounds like restaurants like Jean Georges in New York - and Azul in Miami.  Very cutting edge - very intellectual.  You feel out of place if you're not in black head to toe.  At best your taste buds will be challenged - and you will appreciate the interior design.  And you will feel trendy.  But you'll never think that anything you eat is "yummy".  You will never say to the person you're dining with - "no - I won't share - I want it all" :).  If you drop a morsel on the floor - you won't try to distract everyone around you while you try to pick it up.

I don't know that I would label CT in that way (I have never been to those restaurants you mentioned either). I ate the same meal Adrober did, and thought it was definitely tasty. Charlie Trotter's focus is more on sourcing out unbelievably good ingredients.

Nobody should ever go into a fine dining place and expect unbelievably, soul-satisfyingly good food, manna prepared by god himself, and lots of it. Food just doesn't get that good. For that, they should find a really good burger or pizza, IMO.

I think you're wrong. But - more importantly - when I read your message - although instinctively I knew you were wrong - I didn't know why. And that made me think :).

And I think I came up with an answer. When you say that what you like most are pizza and burgers - you're just talking about certain food tastes. I can't identify them 100% because I don't know you - but perhaps it's the cheese that you love - or the decadence of beef with lots of grease. Whatever. But you are not going to find these food tastes at a raw food restaurant like Roxanne's (which is being discussed in another thread). However you can find great cheese - or dishes with cheese - that will make you look down your nose at your everyday pizzas for a long time.

By the way - I'm not sure this is the right answer for you. But it is the right answer for me. I know what I like - and I realize that sometimes I go to restaurants after looking at menus where not a single item appeals to me simply because I think I *should* be going to that restaurant. When what I should be doing is going to restaurants that are serving great dishes that use foods that I know I love. A perfect example for me is restaurants that specialize in fish. I am very French in the sense that I don't think most fish was ever meant to be a main course in a very big deal meal. A course between the appetizer and main course - ok. But not the main course - because most fish is too delicate. I would kill for a perfect sole with a perfect beurre blanc sauce. But I would consider it inappropriate as a main course.

Also - I am curious. Don't know where you live or where you've traveled. Have you ever tried the burger at Cafe Boulud in New York (I'm pretty sure that's the Boulud restaurant it's served at)? It's supposed to be outrageous. The best burger in the world stuffed with fois gras - something like that. There are some pretty classy restaurants doing burgers these days :). Robyn