L'Astrance Spurned Me -- Need Help For My 35th!

[Bux]

My personal advice is that if you've never eaten in a two star restaurant or a three star one, go for the two star. It's likely to be a better buy. It may possibly offer just as good food and will defintely offer more bang for your euro. I've enjoyed Carre des Feuillants very much. Just understand that there's a difference between what you get on the tasting menu at night and on the lunch special in most restaurants. I've had the food at Carre des Feuillants at both levels and the difference is very noticeable if you've had both, and especially if you've had the more extravagant meal first. Nevertheless I enjoyed the prix fixe lunch.

[Hypnotic]

It is just a meal after all!

Your own focus on getting a meal there when Paris has so many fine restaurants belies that statement.

Bux, please don't misunderstand. I really do believe it is just a meal. Of course I know I can eat at scores of other restaurants, and I will, I am simply interested in experiencing L'astrance as well.

Regarding

will waylay any fears we are one of those unknowledgeable diners who just eat at name restaurants

, does one have to be a "knowledgeable" diner to merit eating in certain restaurants now? What about those poor folks who are just hungry? I can understand that at times when eating a particularly mood-altering, thought provoking meal the food snob in us - for lack of a more appropriate term - might glance around the dining room and think for a second "I wonder if these other people get it?" or are they just chatting and chewing. That said, I would never begrudge anyone for wanting to eat wherever they choose to whatever their motivation. ( Unless of course I was picking up the tab! ) Edited November 6, 2003 by Hypnotic (log)

[Bux]

Regarding

will waylay any fears we are one of those unknowledgeable diners who just eat at name restaurants

, does one have to be a "knowledgeable" diner to merit eating in certain restaurants now? What about those poor folks who are just hungry? I can understand that at times when eating a particularly mood-altering, thought provoking meal the food snob in us - for lack of a more appropriate term - might glance around the dining room and think for a second "I wonder if these other people get it?" or are they just chatting and chewing. That said, I would never begrudge anyone for wanting to eat wherever they choose to whatever their motivation. ( Unless of course I was picking up the tab! )

Nor would I begrudge anyone for wanting to eat at someone else's restaurant. Here I am thinking of a chef with a very small restaurant whose profit depends on establishing a loyal following and who takes great pride in what he prepares.

First, I am honestly and sincerely of the opinion that like any artist, he deserves an audience who really appreciate his work. Time and again I have heard from cooks working in kitchens who regret their choice of careers, not because they don't like to cook, but because they feel unfulfilled because they don't have the clientele that appreciates the kind of food they'd like to make. There are chefs who are artists and to think of their restaurants as just another place for people to satisfy their hunger is to do them an injustice.

Second, restaurants are a business. The knowledgeable diner will refer more of the same kind of clientele. The restaurant will prosper seving the kind of food the chef likes to cook to the kind of people who like to eat it. If he's to survive on a clientele of those who come in because they are hungry, his success will depend not on his skills as a chef, but on his location. Someone posted a very astute comment recently and I can't remember who it was to give credit, but he pointed out that people do not make reservations at restaurants such as the French Laundry, El Bulli and the like, because they know that in one month at eight o'clock they expect to be hungry.

When I eat in a restaurant I respect highly, there's no food snob in me who asks if other diners get the food, there's just a guy who knows a few dedicated chefs and who wonders if there are enough people in the room who make the chef feel good about cooking for them. Those who are just hungry have a much larger pool of restaurants from which to pick a table, that those who are obsessed with chef driven food.

[vmilor]

two of the smallest lamb chops I have ever seen. The lamb was also of inferior quality, tasteless, just semi-tender and bleeding heavily, which they had tried to mitigate by frying the chops hard on the exterior.

Looks like you had spring lamb if chops for smallest you have ever seen. Some people, including myself , go out of their way to devour them. Looks like they cooked them Basque style. This is a great delicacy in early to mid Spring. Old Robuchon used to prepare an outstanding baby lamb in salt crust in spring for 2. I gather this is no more on the menu?

L'Astrance is not a great value anymore. I had solo lunch there last June and the menu was 80 euros. Wines by glass are of poor qualityand expensive for what they are. It is a nice restaurant which delivers at the higher end of one star and will be equally at home in New York or London given the cooking style.

A quite "hot" 2 stars now is Les Elysees and they have good value for lunch. The chef there was an ex chef of Plaza Athenee and he was kicked out when Ducasse took the reins. He is trying hard to prove himself. The room is quite romantic in a nice hotel(Vernet) with a glorious dome designed by Eifell.

[degusto]

vmilor,

You make wrong assumptions.

By the way, the term spring lamb that you use is hardly adequate. Agneau de printemps in French is more frequently used for dishes made of lamb in the spring, rather than agneau de lait or suckling lamb that I suppose you refers to. Very rarely, in my opinion, is agneau de printemps used for lamb that is also called agneau blanc or laiton, a slightly older lamb than agneau de lait. L'agneau blanc has also a white meat and has been fed with milk from its mother but also on milk substitute. L’agneau de lait on the other hand has been fed only with milk from the mother. By tradition l'agneau de lait is sometimes called l'agneau de Pâques.

It is correct that l’agneau de lait, somewhat depending on origin, can be extremely small. In English, agneau de lait, is maybe incorrectly called spring lamb at times, but since agneau de lait is readily available most of the year or at least from early/mid fall to early summer, the term (even the term l'agneau de Pâques) is misleading unless it at this time of the year comes from the Southern Hemisphere.

The lamb at Robuchon was labeled as agneau de Lozere not agneau de lait. Lozere lamb, as you may know, is known for being set of to feed it self in freedom very quickly but is slaughtered when it is still quite small at around 80-90 days or so. This means that in theory it should have the tenderness of agneau de lait but at the same time some of the charachter of a lamb that has eaten herbs. When at its best, agneau de Lozere can be astonishingly good, having exactly that, the tenderness and crispy skin of the best agneau de lait and a very fragrant lamb flavour. Pacaud serves lamb like that at times. However, the lamb at Robuchon was not at all in this league, it was just tasteless, not tender and not very juicy either. I say this despite I had the part of the back that I like most, that is the part opposite of the back part under which the filets are located. OK, maybe I was extremely disappointed with the array of poorly executed dishes and poor wines by the glass, but it was just an average lamb not vey nicely cooked.

I did remark that the chops where small (not small for agneau de lait but for a lamb) since they were only two and of poor quality so the price was everything but a bargain.

I am also a great admirer of agneau de lait not to speak of very small cochon de lait. I do not have to go out of my way to get it, as it is often available from various origins in butcher shops close by. That does unfortunately not include the pré-salé from the Mont-Saint-Michel bay (which may not really exist as just milk fed), but most other lamb varietes of interest.

As for cooking lamb chops Basque style I don't really know what you refer to. You have to enlighten me. At Robuchon they were just sauted at high heat served with some herbes and a less than interesting sauce, a demi-glace if I remember right. Oh I almost forgot, there was a tiny portion of the famous puré, but it was served at something close to room temperature.

There where some dishes on the menu that are the same or resemble what Robuchon served earlier, such as the Merlan frit Colbert, which on the other hand isn’t a Robuchon creation as some people seem to think.

I have read in this thread that people have had “stellar meals” and so on at L'Atelier Joël Robuchon. My experience there leaves me wondering what they compare it with.

[vmilor]

Jellybean:

I will gladly accept that I made wrong assumptions on the basis of what I considered a bizarre equation(smallest lamb chops are undesirable) but since these assumptions brought forward a wealth of knowledge and convincing arguments to benefit the reader I am happy that I rendered a public service prodding you to expound on your arguments.

Of course the species is very important for lamb such as the churra breed in Spain, kivircik in Trakya, Turkey, etc. I wish I knew what Robuchon was serving at Jamin(where I ate 30 times or so), because it was the best I have encountered in France, including Pacaud which, IMO, is the flagbearer for classical French cuisine today.

Two more subjective notes: first, I am avoiding l'Atelier since I never thought to highly of either Laurent and Astor whose chefs are cooking today at l'Atelier. Second, I respect people who are not awed by gastrotech gimmicks and focus on ingredient quality in their review of restaurants. I, for one, would love to hear more reports from you on Parisian or other restaurants.How did you choose such a funny nickname though?

[degusto]

vmilor,

Just to add a few more notes about lamb or any type of meat actually. The specie is certainly important. From my experience including experiments and trials the origin/specie does more for the taste and to some extent the texture than it does for the quality. I don't think that anyone can fully explain why a certain lamb is better than another. The difference of lamb from two producers that may have seemingly the same methods and the same type of lamb can be quite big. It's like Burgundy wines. For example lamb from Sisteron, which is quite famous and often preferred in Southern France can range from poor quality to the very top of what you will find. It is not always a function of the price either. There is a general rule however, the older the meat the more irregular will the quality be. Certainly, on the top level taste plays an important role. Do we want it with more fat or little fat? Do we want it larger but still white? Do we want it small but very flavourful? Do we prefer the tenderness and juicyness? Do we prefer the crispyness of the skin of an epaule d'agneau de lait that has been spit roasted?

So what I am trying to say is that a suckling lamb from a certain origin can be of poor quality and of good quality. That is why, to me, the size alone have no significant importance when it comes to lamb.

Anything Robuchon served came from producers or middle men he could trust. It is probably written somewhere who used to deliver lamb to him. If I had to choose a lamb I would probably go for the Allaiton that you at times will find at Michel Bras.

I too admire Pacaud, mostly because he is probably the only chef that actually is in the kitchen cooking, but also because of perfection in certain details that you rarely see. It is a place where you gladly accept to wait an extra 30 minutes for a dish to arrive, because you know that the reason is not that they have forgotten it or that the kitchen is badly organized, but that Pacaud told his chefs to redo it.

I also agree with your remarks on Braun and Lecerf. Braun, who was there when I went there, did not cook. He was just walking around with a big almost artifical smile. Only once or twice did he look at dishes before they went to the diners. He did not seem to care what went out from the cooking range. If these guys where actually cooking, the level of the place would probably be vastly improved. So one could say that the potential of l’Atelier is enormous as it is a real low water mark right now. I just remembered that every plate had so many fingerprints on them that I wondered if they tried to break a world record.

As for the name. Well, vmilor was taken so I had to think of something else . Since I had just figured out how to make agar-based jelly shaped as large raindrops or beans I took that name.

[Scott]

I have read in this thread that people have had “stellar meals” and so on at L'Atelier Joël Robuchon. My experience there leaves me wondering what they compare it with.

Lucas Carton, Le Cinq, Laurent & Le Regalade in the space of 3 days.

unneccessary inference

[degusto]

Scott,

I did not mean to infer anything. I do respect your opinion that you rate L'Atelier above or better than some great and famous dining places in Paris. I think that is a minority opinion. If everyone agreed on all restaurants there would be no egullet forum, would there?

I have out of curiosity looked around what French food journalists have said and I have found no one raving about the place, although admittedly, no one dislikes it as much as I do. But, on the other hand one has to bear in mind the status of Robuchon in France and that many of the most influencial food journalists appear on Robuchon's television channel regularly. So what they really think could be subject to some speculation. Interestingly, I have found nothing written by François Simon of le Figaro, a silence I take as he does not like it. Gault Millau gave it 14 or 15 (I cannot remember what it was) out of 20 in their Magazine shortly after it opened. I have seen no one being even close to comparing it to for example Lucas Carton, where I haven't been to for years due to a real lacklustre experience there. So on a good night at L'Atelier maybe I would also compare it to Lucas Carton. But I don't plan to go again to L'Atelier. Une fois, ça va très bien.

A final note. Patricia Wells wrote a very nice article after she had been there on the opening night, without saying what she really thought about the food. The article can be found on her website, www.patriciawells.com. Her close relation to Robuchon needs no further comments. In her short list of recommended restaurants in Paris there is no L'Atelier. One wonders what she really thought.

[Joe H]

Vmilor,

I've read this thread with a great deal of interest especially since I return to Paris for a week in mid January and will have four or five better meals. First, this is the link to a post I put on Chowhound about my visit to L'Atalier about two or so weeks after it opened in May:

http://www.chowhound.com/boards/intl/messa...ages/19460.html

When I visited the restaurant Patricia Wells had just published her rave review two days earlier. My post was several days after this. And, yes, I was able to visit his earlier restaurant in Paris in the mid '90's before he closed it.

First, without wasting your's or anyone's time and reciting where I've been these are my priorities on this trip and I am curious about your thoughts:

1. L'Astrance. Any opinions on getting in other than calling at 4:00AM EST one month to the day even if it is a weeknight?

2. Les Elysees. I'll trade you with Ambrasciata for this one and will go. Any suggestions? Reserve a month in advance? Now?

3. Is Jamin still as good as, say, two years ago?

4. Tallievent. I was there five or six years ago with a different chef. Any thoughts on today?

5. Pierre Gagnaire. I've had dinner there. Alternatively to another dinner would I recapture the overall experience with a visit at lunch? This is a business meal with someone who has never been and I am not familiar with his luncheon menu.

6. Now, don't laugh, but there is an Italian restaurant called L'Osteria that is supposed to be very, very good. I can't eat French every day. Any thoughts?

7. Last, I've had 9 dinners at Violon d'Ingris, all in it's first two years when Christian was in the kitchen every night. As a bias, I also think his wife Catherine is absolutely superb in the front room and a wonderful lady. Having said this I have not been in several years and know that he has lost a star as well as having opened two more restaurants which will divide his time. My last visit, for the first time, there was not just one but two misses. In -part this has kept me away. Have you or anyone else been in the past few months who ALSO WENT IN ITS FIRST OR SECOND YEAR?

Thanks.

[vmilor]

Joe:

Thanks for the confidence and the l'Atelier link. From the very beginning, when I read Steve Plotnicki's report, I decided that their style was out of sync with my expectations. It is better to leave my memories of some of the greatest meals cooked by Robuchon undisturbed. But I know for fact that Robuchon worked very very hard. He now deserves to enjoy life and take shortcuts. IMO his true successor in terms of ethics and cooking style is Pacaud.

I will try to address your questions. It would be adviseable to get a second opinion though esp. from somebody like Jellybean who is clearly well informed and judicious.

1. I called l'Astrance 2 weeks before and spoke to Monsieur Rohat for a solo lunch last June. I have not had any problem. I did not drop any names; nothing. The cuisine is light and uplifting and I will not be surprised if they get a second star as I would rate them one and a half. There is still a gap though between l'Astrance and the cooking of the chef's mentor, Passard ,at Arpege. Arpege is not my #1 choice in Paris but some dishes there are very well thought out and stay in my memory. This is not the case with L'astrance, including the crab ravioli which is fine.

2. Les Elysees should be very easy to reserve. As far as I know Briffard is not a celebrity, except a glowing review by P. Wells, but actually I find Ms. Wells too generous in her praise and our judgments often differ. Make sure you try the rustic pied et tete de cochon dish at les Eysees. If I were not lazy I should have posted the details of my funny solo dinner there, the day before my lunch at l'Astrance.

3. They know me at Jamin as the current manager was #3 at the old Jamin and this colours the experience. This said, the cooking is very solid and this is perhaps the best price quality ratio in Paris among haut cuisine places. It is good, very good, to me as good as the 2 which have gotten third stars(Savoy and Ledoyen) but not really true third star level.

4. I liked Soliveres cooking very much at Les Elysees. Two and a half stars level. He is esp. good with shellfish and derives ideas from various traditions, and not only the mediterranean tradition. Lizzie, whose opinion I respect very much, reported a great meal at Taillevent. My only caveat was that in May truffles were served and I don't like the idea of serving off season ingredients on the grounds that the international clientele expects to find them on the menu! Personally I would not go to Taillevent after getting the worst table when the previous chef, Del Burgo, was at the helm. The excuse was worse then the act: I was not staying in a 5 stars hotel so I was not expected to spend on the wine list. Quite funny.

5. Gagnaire is a moody person and when he is on (and not in London) cooking can be trascendental there. My exception is the menu degustation for lunch which is just very good. He really is a 19th century man and he excels in creating baroque preparations which may or may not have existed in ancient Rome and worthy of Satyricon. I never understand why people call his cooking avant garde. In my eyes he is an antic piece. I recommend that you pick just one appetizer, preferably shellfish based, and one main course, maybe game.

6. When bored with the usual suspects I go for North African in Paris. I like Wally-Saharien which is actually Algerian not Moroccan.

7. I am the person to ask this question as I qualify. I have had 2 great meals at Violon d'Ingres when they opened and I could have carried Catherine back had my wife not been with me We again went there 8 months ago. The food was as delicious as I remember. I don't know why they are not 2 stars as I had better luck there than, say, at Pre Catelan or Trois Marches. The only problem is that Catherine was not there and the service was correct but not cordial in our last visit.

When are you going to Paris actually?

[Joe H]

My wife and I are there from Wednesday, Jan. 14th to Sunday when we return. Your posts are quite interesting, I probably need a bit of time to"absorb" them. I am inclined to revisit Violon (as I should have without hesitation!), Les Elysees and Jamin, all three for dinner. This leaves the same kind of consideration that so many on this board have, where to have the all out meal? Gagnaire was a possibility but to be honest I do not want to spend what could be thousand dollars on a dinner for four (290 Euros each + 3-500 for wine + 15-20% dollar conversion + tip). This is why I had considered lunch but if we do go to Gagnaire most likely we would do his lengthiest tasting menu. I may decide that Les Elysees is best for four for dinner. Perhaps even Violon. On my first visit to it I was so impressed that my wife and I cancelled a reservation at Tallievent to return the next night we liked it so much. He has three or four dishes including a crab and black truffle risotto with croutons (for crunch) that is off the menu and equal to anything I've had in Italy. There was also a roast veal dish that was extraordinary as is his way with foie gras. Actually, I'm now talking myself into this as I type (getting very hungry, too) since I remember a very alcoholic Baked Alaska that I really enjoyed. Very good lobster salad also.

OK, Violon for the meal for four.

Les Elysees for my wife and I. Jamin, also.

Pacaud is at L'Ambroisie which I have never been to. The former chef of Les Elysees is now at Tallievent which Patricia Wells (who I somewhat disagreed with about L'Atalier) raved about in January of this year. My one visit to Tallievent was five or six years ago with a different chef; the service was superb, we enjoyed the room. Cabby does have superb taste. I trust your opinion for Les Elysees but having disagreed with Cabby I owe her opinion an opportunity, too.

Tallievent for the last night.

Perhaps flawed logic. Now all I need to do is secure all of the reservations but I've never had problems with the three stars in the past because of a "relaitonship" that I can take advantage of when I experience difficulty. I doubt if this opportunity would exist for L'Astrance, however.

[Scott]

Scott,

I did not mean to infer anything. I do respect your opinion that you rate L'Atelier above or better than some great and famous dining places in Paris.

Jellybean,

that's not what I said or think. I think it is an excellent restaurant, I had one dish that was vastly superior in concept and execution to a similar one I had at Lucas Carton.

It is not trying to be a truly great restaurant, and I do not think it to be better than many of the great institutions, I do however think it is very good and at times there is a little of the old magic.

[fresh_a]

Let`s not forget that there are seven combined Michelin stars in L'Atelier's kitchen...

[Bux]

It's also worth remembering that many very talented chefs are no longer trying to create the ideal Michelin three star restaurant, though their aspirations in terms of food are really no lower than they were when they were cooking in two or three star restaurants. Every two star restaurant in France seems to want to be a three star and lived in hopes of achieving that status. There are significant one and no star restaurants today that are exactly what they want to be.

[Gary Marshall]

atelier-great

glass champagne

chestnut and foie gras soup

oeuf en cocotte

glass macon

langoustine ravioli (ok at e21 not great value)

several glasses red burgundy, can't remember which.

lamb chops and pomme puree (one of the best food experiences this year)

pigeon and foie gras

more soup

vanilla and chocolate pots

coffee

calvados

3.5 hours

£125

i will deifnately return.

gary