Biodynamic Winemaking

[slkinsey]

As Craig pointed out,

All of the producers that are using this method were making great wines before they changed. 

I think this makes Sam's suggestion problematic:

The question, of course, is whether or not a similar level of care and attention, minus the cow horns, pyramid shaped fermenting rooms, North-South oriented aging rooms and so forth would result in a similar product.

It's not like some shitty coop suddenly started producing Yquem from ugni blanc or something. We're talking about careful, dedicated and passionate producers with some pretty nice plots of land where people have been growing grapes for 2,000 years.

I'm not quite sure how or in what sense it makes my suggestion -- or, rather, my question -- problematic. But I think it is likely that I just don't understand what you're getting at.

Were these vinyards, in fact, using a "similar level of care and attention" prior to adopting biodynamic methods? I find that hard to believe, as I have a difficult time picturing a more labor intensive method, or one more inherrently connected to the ground and the crops, than the biodynamic method.

Did these high-qualitiy wineries suddenly experience a huge jump in quality when they went over to biodynamic methods as opposed to the methods they had previously used? Or is it the case that the character of the wine changed slightly when the farming methods changed? If the latter is true, that makes perfect sense -- especially if the change was a relatively small one from organic to biodynamic. New cultivation, fertilization, growing and harvesting methods will necessarily impart differences in the end result. We know this is the case. Also, it is important to understand what the previous methods were and how they differed from biodynamic methods.

To extend this line of reasoning, it doesn't surprise me too much that there are observed, and even characteristic, differences between "regular" organic soil and biodynamic soil. The fact that the biodynamic method uses different and special compost (containing, among other things, ground quartz, yarrow flowers, chamomile flowers, stinging nettle plants, ground oak bark, dandelion, valerian flowers, horsehair and extra-fermented cow manure) should produce some unique and characteristic differences in and of itself. The question still remains -- and I think it is a very valid one -- whether or not someone could practice farming techniques identical to those used in biodynamic farming, but minus the new-age hokus pokus, and produce equivalent results.

I found it interesting in the Science report you cited (which may be found here in its entirety) that they state right up front that "mean crop yield was 21% lower [in the organic systems] over a period of 21 years." My guess as to the cause of the observed difference in biological activity and diversity between organic and biodynamic spoil is that the latter's compost, due to its specific and varied makeup as well as the extended fermentation, were already more active and diverse.

[Fat Guy]

One way to make a lot of money from biodynamic farming would be to prove that the hocus-pocus aspects of it actually work independent of the aspects that are physically verifiable. Because there are organizations, like the James Randi Educational Foundation, that offer large cash rewards to anybody who can substantiate paranormal phenomena. To wit:

we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The prize is in the form of negotiable bonds held in a special investment account. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

[badthings]

I hope no one thinks that there is a "supernatural" explanation for why biodynamic farming appears to produce better wine. I am merely trying to argue that there could plausibly be a scientific one, if someone cared to do the research.

I basically agree with Sam's last post. He brings up one obvious explanation of why biodynamic may work with wine grapes -- reduced yield.

Edit: Interested San Franciscans can taste the difference at Acme Chophouse 11/17.

Edited October 31, 2003 by badthings (log)

[Fat Guy]

I hope no one thinks that there is a "supernatural" explanation for why biodynamic farming appears to produce better wine.

The serious disciples of Steiner totally believe this.

[slkinsey]

I hope no one thinks that there is a "supernatural" explanation for why biodynamic farming appears to produce better wine. I am merely trying to argue that there could plausibly be a scientific one, if someone cared to do the research.

I suppose it depends somewhat on one's definition of "supernatural." I would place something like making sure that all the maturation tanks faced North in this category.

I basically agree with Sam's last post. He brings up one obvious explanation of why biodynamic may work with wine grapes -- reduced yield.

Well... this would also include organic, as there do not appear to have been meaningfully large differences between yields from organic and biodynamic crops, whereas there was a meaningfully large difference between yields from these two crops compared to the yield from the "regular" methods.

[badthings]

I suppose it depends somewhat on one's definition of "supernatural."  I would place something like making sure that all the maturation tanks faced North in this category.

Don't you see, it's the magnets.

Well... this would also include organic

right again, damn you.

[Carema]

Steiner was deathly afraid of technology. Like the theosophists before him (whaddya think Frakenstein was all about?) he lived during the industrial revolution and watched as mechanization took over tasks formerly performed manually by humans. He percieved the death of skilled craftmanship and worried about the state of children. The Waldforf educational system was developed by him for the children of the Waldorf Astoria cigarette factory and is supposedly art based. The agriculture works because the soils stay healthy. The whole world was bromide blasting and going for high yield especially in the 1970s and his techniques are just gentle ways of keeping a balance going.

The cow horn thing often gets over exemplified. Newton uses the techniques, for instance she has one vineyard plagued by a pest whose natural enemies are bees so she treats the soil with honey and there are gobs of bees managing the pests for her. The grape pickers do not care for this technique as much but the results are good.

The educational system is another story. My child was a Waldorf kid for a year and that was the most f***k up place imaginable. The women sat around knitting like mini Madame Lafarges, I wore too much black clothing and eventually my son was expelled. Plus I didn't knit. Now he is in public school and just won a certificate from Pizza Hut for reading which would have been abbhhorent in the Waldorf world.

[slkinsey]

I suppose it depends somewhat on one's definition of "supernatural."  I would place something like making sure that all the maturation tanks faced North in this category.

Don't you see, it's the magnets.

Hmmm... Well, the earth does have a very large magnetic field...

[melkor]

I suppose it depends somewhat on one's definition of "supernatural."  I would place something like making sure that all the maturation tanks faced North in this category.

Don't you see, it's the magnets.

Hmmm... Well, the earth does have a very large magnetic field...

Yes, but are they rare earth magnets?

[slkinsey]

I suppose it depends somewhat on one's definition of "supernatural."  I would place something like making sure that all the maturation tanks faced North in this category.

Don't you see, it's the magnets.

Hmmm... Well, the earth does have a very large magnetic field...

Yes, but are they rare earth magnets?

There are, after all, billlllllllllllllllllllllllllllions and billlllllllllllllllllllllllllllions of other planets and only one Earth. So, in that sense, it's a rare Earth magnet.

[wineserver]

I was truly surprised to see Nicolas Joly mentioned only once in the 2 pages of discussion. Joly pioneered biodynamie in the realm of viticulture beginning in the early 1980s. He is widely regarded as the leading educator and practioner of this method. He preaches the benefits of biodynamie not with the zeal of a Pentacostal evangilist, but with thoughtful, passion and confidence. For those true wine geeks, his book Wine From Sky to Earth is an introduction of biodynamie for the layman.

[KatieLoeb]

Here's a link to an interesting article that appeared in the Philadelphia Inquirer last week.

Biodynamic Farming

And here's a follow up with some actual tasting notes for the wines sampled.

Putting Biodynamics to the Test

[tanabutler]

John Williams, the winemaker at Frog's Leap*, has been biodynamic for years and years. He attended the Outstanding in the Field farm dinner at Knoll Farm in 2002. Farmer Rick Knoll is also a biodynamic grower--those two were a pair, I tell ya.

The wines are swoon-worthy.

We visited Frog's Leap last summer. I recommend it to anyone going to Napa. The gardens and grounds are gorgeous, and visitors are welcome to help themselves to any of the organic vegetables that are sprawling over the grounds. They're very friendly. John Williams is one of the nicest folks you'd ever meet, and he's around, you're lucky.

*That's one of my favorite websites on earth, by the way.

Some shots from the dinner:

John Williams:

One of the wines:

Williams again (see those smile lines? The guy's in love with his work):

Edited February 3, 2004 by tanabutler (log)

[stovetop]

"A sustainable agriculture must be economically viable, socially responsible, and ecologically sound. The economic, social, and ecological are interrelated, and all are essential to sustainability. An agriculture that uses up or degrades its natural resource base, or pollutes the natural environment, eventually will lost its ability to produce. It’s not sustainable. An agriculture that isn’t profitable, at least over time, will not allow its farmers to stay in business. It’s not sustainable. An agriculture that fails to meet the needs of society, as producers and citizens as well as consumers, will not be sustained by society. It’s not sustainable. A sustainable agriculture must be all three – ecologically sound, economically viable, and socially responsible. And the three must be in harmony." -

John Ikerd*

University of Missouri

UNDERSTANDING AND MANAGING THE MULTI-DIMENSIONS OF SUSTAINABLE AGRICULTURE

More papers by John Ikerd

What is this Biodynamic Farming all about?????

Not being a scientist, I am not quite sure where I should start, I feel that a piece of the puzzle has been left out; the whole basis of Biodynamic agriculture is Agronomy which is the study of Crop production and soil management, when you do not rotate crops you will loose certain nutrients in the soil, so you put in other crops that would replace the nutrients lost, leaving a field fallow used to be one way a farmer could attend with the health of the soil, plowing in organic material which in turn replace lost nutrients to the soil. Water management and pest control is also a big part of Agronomy down on the farm.

Farmers have been farming for a long time; it was not until after world war two that farming practices started going more intense, no crop rotation, growing all the same crop, heavy machinery, high intense farming, more profit?? As far as I can see the jury is still out on this one, it is hard to compete with the research that Monsanto, cargill and ADM will give the press, they used to use hemp to fallow a field, from some of the things I have read it was one of the best ways to fallow a field, but we know now of the evils of hemp to society, so we are not allowed to use hemp any more. (Sarcasm).

Sustainable Agriculture in my opinion is the basis of Organic farming and Agronomy is the basis of sustainable agriculture, the soils health is one of the most important things in farming, You can not continually pull food out of the soil and think that this process will last forever, one must put back what one pulls out.

Chemical farming is like a drug addict, you need the methadone to get of the crack, but the methadone is not as bad as the crack, but the addict still can function some what normally. When you need to pump tones of fertilizers and chemicals into the field just to get some yield out of your crop you are in big trouble. This happens because the field is under huge duress, with intense farming you will plant the same crop, genetically altered to make profit for genetic companies not farmers, you need the fertilizers to grow, the pesticides to keep the bugs away, you have some serious addiction going on here. Remember DDT; it was OK to use after the war, then some light bulb went off in some ones head and they decided that it was bad for us, but the chemical companies did make their millions before it was disposed of, when will we learn that there is no easy way to farming.

Today’s trends in farming in my opinion are smaller is better, more diversity on the farm, planting more crop varieties, saving seeds, finding more traditional genetic breeds in animals and plants, going back in history and learning what our ancestors did and why, taking their success of 100 of years of genetic natural selection, science in my opinion will never match the earths process of natural selection, she is way more objective in her selection of traits, not for profit, better transport or look, but survival, three years of drought will produce a heartier breed of plant, save the seeds of the plants that survive and you are on your way to a better farm.

Now back to the Winery; those horns and shit, what are horns and shit made of? You have nutrients that the soil needs in those horns, somewhere along the way the wacky spiritual stuff got someone caught up in ritual, but I am sure that there is answers to all those wacky things like the moon and such. Science has answers for all of it.

But we must be objective and farm not for straight profit but make it from the land; one can not control nature, only learn from it.

Garbage in Garbage out

stovetop

Bioregionalism

[stovetop]

WINE

The grapes get flow from the roots, the roots get flow from the ground, energy and nutrients come from the ground and feed the grapes, good water, sun, combined with lots of natural fertilizers, limited grape clusters on a stem that utilize the ultimate growth, all that flavor is soaked into the grape, now that is wine

stovetop

[stovetop]

Where is this industry going

Is it just Voodoo

Is there any difference in traditional or sustainable wine growing.

This page needs more dialogue

Please there must be more people out there, with some knowledge in non chemical farming and GMO wines.

stovetop

Edited March 17, 2004 by stovetop (log)

[Chris Kissack]

IMHO, biodynamics can be separated into:

Sensible practices: reduction of pesticide and herbicide use, essentially organic farming.

Strange practices that might work: use of plant infusions and various teas applied to the vines as treatments against disease. When I visited Nicolas Joly (profile and brief account of biodynamics here: Nicolas Joly profile) he had just returned from a trip into the mountains to collect plants in order to make vine treatments. Burying cow dung in horns in the field. These practices sound mad but who is to say they don't work? I challenge anyone to produce evidence on this forum that such practices are ineffective!

Practices that really do sound wacky: burning rabbit skins to ward off pests. Regarding the fermentation as the birth of new life - hence the barrel has the shape of an egg. Regarding sulphur as 'a form of light'. Hmmmm.

Regardless, there is one fact that cannot be ignored. The results (Nicolas Joly, Chapoutier, Zind Humbrecht, Domaine Leroy, and many, many more) cannot be ignored.

BWs

Chris Kissack

[stovetop]

I lived on a farm last summer and I could not believe the stuff my room mate poured on his plants, he had buckets of organic mater rotting at different stages, old tampons from the grocery store for chicken, beef ect to egg shells to any food juices , nothing was wasted, they all had a home.

stovetop

[Rebel Rose]

Biodynamic Berries -- Ancient Ways are the Next Step in Organic Winemaking

Little "bug highways" . . . does anyone else get the sense that this article is condescending and dumbing down these concepts?

[Rebel Rose]

A live video of biodynamic winemaker Nicholas Joly at Organic Wine and Martini Bar. Enjoy.

[Rebel Rose]

Here's a new twist on the biodynamic model:

Vintner uses aloe vera to prevent sunburn -- on his grapes

Grapes that get too much sun face the same problems as humans: Tan today, wrinkle tomorrow.

Which is why winemaker Aaron Pott, taking a cue from sun-worshippers, started spraying his grapes with a compost "tea" that includes small amounts of aloe vera and yucca, known for their abilities to soothe over-sunned skin.

As a result, his vines came through the intense bursts of heat that hit California this summer largely unscathed, says Pott, winemaker at the Quintessa winery in the Napa Valley.

Given how little aloe vera is probably actually in expensive lotions on the market . . .

[JohnL]

Here's a new twist on the biodynamic model:

Vintner uses aloe vera to prevent sunburn -- on his grapes

Grapes that get too much sun face the same problems as humans: Tan today, wrinkle tomorrow.

Which is why winemaker Aaron Pott, taking a cue from sun-worshippers, started spraying his grapes with a compost "tea" that includes small amounts of aloe vera and yucca, known for their abilities to soothe over-sunned skin.

As a result, his vines came through the intense bursts of heat that hit California this summer largely unscathed, says Pott, winemaker at the Quintessa winery in the Napa Valley.

Given how little aloe vera is probably actually in expensive lotions on the market . . .

←

Gee--this gave me a great idea for mushroom growers.

Sunblock!!!! (spf fifty stuff)

Then they can grow em faster outdoors no need for any buildings or shade etc.

Anyone wanna join me--I need investors!!!!

[Craig Camp]

Here's a new twist on the biodynamic model:

Vintner uses aloe vera to prevent sunburn -- on his grapes

Grapes that get too much sun face the same problems as humans: Tan today, wrinkle tomorrow.

Which is why winemaker Aaron Pott, taking a cue from sun-worshippers, started spraying his grapes with a compost "tea" that includes small amounts of aloe vera and yucca, known for their abilities to soothe over-sunned skin.

As a result, his vines came through the intense bursts of heat that hit California this summer largely unscathed, says Pott, winemaker at the Quintessa winery in the Napa Valley.

Given how little aloe vera is probably actually in expensive lotions on the market . . .

←

Sunburn is certainly an issue (see here) but, I think we'll stick to canopy management instead of rubbing sun block on each grape. Somehow using the leaves sounds more natural than aloe vera.

[Rebel Rose]

We had visits this weekend from winemaker/enologists from Monterey and Napa, and the conversation turned to biodynamic and organic certification. It seems more and more West Coast growers are seeking certification--some out of true passion for the growing practices, and some, unfortunately, for the marketing cachet.

One interesting thread in the conversation is that Demeter, the organization that certifies BD practitioners, has no allowance for "community" applications. One of the requirements is that the grower have livestock, or ruminants (hooved animals), on the property. But if, like us and many small Napa vineyards, you only have 10-20 acres on which to grow grapes, there is no room to have an income-viable crop AND livestock. And grapevines don't generally fare well with ruminants between the rows.

But if, like us, a grower is sandwiched between a market farmer with rotating crops, a walnut orchard with natural cover crops, and a small farmer with cattle and horses, and if the farms trade "product," like wine for firewood, composted manure, peavines for green manure, etc.--and presuming all the farms agreed to strict BD principles, why couldn't the four farms file a communal application?

We enjoyed the brainstorming, and the consensus was that Demeter should be moving forward in their thinking, with services and research geared for the future of biodynamic farming, instead of being rooted so entirely in the past.

[JohnL]

I can't help but wonder if the biodynamic farming philosophy is pushing things a bit too far--to the point of absurdity actually.

Steiner is a fascinating fellow with some fascinating ideas, many of which are certainly worth considering. However, I also wonder if biodynamic farming which takes organic farming to an extreme degree bordering on witchcraft, voodoo, and quasi religious mumbo jumbo, is just a further complication in considering wine.

Consumers are confused enough, especially when it comes to wine. I also believe that if a farmer believes that certain methods are better for the grapes, the wine and/or the planet then he or she should simply practice them quietly. I admit I am skeptical about touting such things on the wine label. The wine should speak for itself.

The truth is, it is impossible to ascertain by taste or any qualitative standards, a wine made using conventional methods from one from organically grown grapes or one made according to biodynamic principles.

Proponants are quick to cite Joly (not a good example as the Coulee de Serrant has been up and down in quality for some time) or Leroy et al; ignoring the many more equally fine wines made conventionally as well as the biodynamic wines that are less than stellar in quality.

There seems to be a search for some spitrituality in farming and wine making and this is welcome but within reason. If a wine maker believes that standing naked in the vinyard and baying at the moon on every third Tuesday of the growing season is a good thing so be it, religion is fine, his or her job is to grow the best they can-- but I prefer they keep their methods to themselves!

Like the sausage maker, I prefer to enjoy the fruits of their labor in ignorant bliss.

I just want to drink good wine. (wine I think is good).