Biodynamic Winemaking

[Felonius]

The topic of biodynamic ("biodyamique" in France) winemaking came up in a another thread, so I thought I'd use that as a starting point for a more focused discussion here....

I don't read my horoscope or chat with Dionne Warwick on the Psychic Friends Network. However, I believe that the "Biodynamique" thing, as crazy as it sounds, is yielding some incredible results. I thought it was all bullshit until I blind tasted some of these wines. Try the latest offerings from Leroy and Meo-Camuzet in Burgundy. The former is one of the first proponents of Biodynamie, the latter is a recent convert. Randall Grahm (who hosted an interesting forum here about a month ago) is now experimenting with these techniques. Chicken bones or not, they seem to be on to something.

For a basic description of Biodynamie, try this link....

http://www.wineanorak.com/biodynamic2.htm

My skepticism has been eroded further by a number of highly respected winemakers who have begun to employ some form of biodynamie or other in their vineyards. In addition to Domaine Leroy and Meo-Camuzet, there are top Burgundian estates such as Comtes Lafon, Leflaive, and Romanee Conti. I'm not as familiar with who's using it outside of Burgundy, but Radall Grahm (Bonny Doon Winery) is heading down this path and I know Zind-Humbrecht in Alsace is as well.

Fat Guy mentions on another thread:

"I suspect the results are due simply to good and conscientious winemaking, and not to orienting the barrels in accordance with the Zodiac and related nonsense...."

What do you think?

[slkinsey]

I think I totally agree with the Corpulent One.

[Craig Camp]

comments by Jancis Robinson from her Q and A

[Fat Guy]

Some additional, useful background reading:

Derived from lectures given by Rudolf Steiner in 1924, biodynamics involves mixing organic farming with elements of astrology and homeopathy. It is a holistic approach to farming, seeing plants as a living link between the earth, the air and the cosmos.

The term biodynamic was coined after the death of Rudolf Steiner in 1925. He created anthroposophy, a system of thought drawing on both Christian-based mysticism and contemporary science. Steiner had a network of disciples who were inspired to turn his roughly sketched ideas on farming into workable methods.

Biodynamics - the term they chose to reflect his ideas - links organic, or 'biological' farming with dynamism. The emphasis is to view plants as part of a wider, constantly changing system. Nothing is seen as inert - even herbal infusions designed to be watered into the soil are 'dynamised' or 'activated' by endless stirring.

http://www.waitrose.com/food_drink/wfi/dri...ine/9811106.asp

Does anybody have a link for the old New York Times article about how so many French chefs consult mystics?

[MatthewB]

An interesting question here would center on whether or not the methods "work" whilst leaving aside the supernatural trappings.

Edit: spelling

Edited October 30, 2003 by MatthewB (log)

[Fat Guy]

I agree. To me, there are two discussions to be had, yet it's hard to have them separately because biodynamism is a "system" and it seems the major adherents of it buy into the whole thing so it's impossible to separate out the planetary-alignment stuff from the brass-tacks agriculture.

[Dave the Cook]

An interesting question here would center on whether or not the methods "work" whilst leaving aside the supernatural trappings.

Edit: spelling

I'm completely new to this stuff, but if you take away the cow's horns and stag bladders, aren't you just talking about plain old organic farming?

[Fat Guy]

I'd say it's probably a unique subset of organic farming, even if you remove the mysticism from the equation. A type of organic farming, yes. Plain old organic farming, probably not.

[MatthewB]

I wonder if anyone does this type of farming while stripping away as much of the mysticism as possible.

I realize that hard-core adherents would say that it couldn't be done. But similar things has been accomplished (such as Western acceptance of Eastern modes of mediation in cognitive therapy.)

[Craig Camp]

I wonder if anyone does this type of farming while stripping away as much of the mysticism as possible.

I realize that hard-core adherents would say that it couldn't be done.  But similar things has been accomplished (such as Western acceptance of Eastern modes of mediation in cognitive therapy.)

There are dozens and dozens of producers quietly using biodyamic theories or parts there of - usually with little or no fanfare or mention in their promotional materials. However, few adhere to the mystical aspects of the practice, but many feel there is some logic - and perhaps scientific support - in many of the practices.

[Dave the Cook]

Do you have any examples, Craig - not which producers, but which practices?

[melkor]

It's hard to ignore some of the astrology aspects of biodynamic farming, if you plant seeds a few days before a full moon they will germinate much faster than they would if you planted them a few days after a full moon. The things that are planted in sync with the moons cycle end up significantly stronger and often produce better fruit. How that carries over to grape farming I haven't a clue, though some of my favorite producers practice biodynamic farming.

[slkinsey]

It's hard to ignore some of the astrology aspects of biodynamic farming, if you plant seeds a few days before a full moon they will germinate much faster than they would if you planted them a few days after a full moon.  The things that are planted in sync with the moons cycle end up significantly stronger and often produce better fruit.

Oh?

Is there any actual evidence that this is the case? I'm not asking this facetiously, I'm actually curious.

[Fat Guy]

I'd be totally willing to believe the moon thing provisionally. The moon has a direct effect on tides, and seems to figure into the timing mechanisms of many things in nature. But I don't see that as astrology. The planetary alignment stuff is what to me is astrological mysticism and presumptively bogus.

[Dave the Cook]

It's hard to ignore some of the astrology aspects of biodynamic farming, if you plant seeds a few days before a full moon they will germinate much faster than they would if you planted them a few days after a full moon.  The things that are planted in sync with the moons cycle end up significantly stronger and often produce better fruit.

Oh?

Is there any actual evidence that this is the case? I'm not asking this facetiously, I'm actually curious.

It wouldn't surprise me too much if moon phases and such turned out have an effect on plant propagation, in a chaotic/sensitive-dependence-on-initial-conditions way. But if that's the case, you will find it nearly impossible to prove.

[dlc]

Another Burgundy producer who uses biodynamic practices if Fredric Mangien. In a tasting with Martine Saunier last week she is absolutely convinced that is makes a difference in the vineyard. Admittedly she is the importer for 2 of its biggest adherents but I do think she has a remarkable palate and understands Burgundy winemaking.

[Craig Camp]

It's hard to ignore some of the astrology aspects of biodynamic farming, if you plant seeds a few days before a full moon they will germinate much faster than they would if you planted them a few days after a full moon.  The things that are planted in sync with the moons cycle end up significantly stronger and often produce better fruit.

Oh?

Is there any actual evidence that this is the case? I'm not asking this facetiously, I'm actually curious.

Nicolas Joly thinks so...

[Bux]

I've always associated "bio" and "biodynamique" with plain old "organic," which is a term that's all too abused over here. Once again, I learn something specific from eGullet. I've little experience with Steiner or his philosophies but am very much prejudiced by my first encounter with a mother who was raising her son in accordance with those philosophies. The child was energetic and unfocused and drank coffee for breakfast. He was in a playgroup with my daughter and the mother was adamant about his not being exposed to "education." This meant the "teacher" in the group could only babysit him and had to be careful not to open a book in his presence or to refer to anything related to numbers or the alphabet while he bounced off the walls near her. It was a pity because our daughter was already forming sentences and quite curious about the signs she was beginning to recognize. It struck me, fairly or not, that Steiner's philosophy was to stifle communication while I have thought of "bio" and "organic" as experimental in a creatively concrete way. I strongly suspect there's a lot of science masked by the voodoo as there is science that's buried in folk medicine. We need to extract what's good and not overlook what we don't understand. I have to wonder if a plastic cup could replace the cow's horn or it there's a possiblity there's a chemical in the horn itself that leaches into the soil. I trust someone responsible will be looking into those possibilities in lieu of just laughing at the obvious. Theories are dangerously easy to dismiss or follow blindly when one doesn't look closely. For what's it's worth, I would have agreed with anyone who advised not pushing education on children, but that's far different from stifling curiosity.

[trillium]

Randall Grahm mentioned noticing a difference in some vineyards that switched to biodynamic farming during the Q&A, didn't he?

regards,

trillium

[Craig Camp]

Randall Grahm mentioned noticing a difference in some vineyards that switched to biodynamic farming during the Q&A, didn't he?

regards,

trillium

...from Randall

[Fat Guy]

Craig, that citation doesn't seem to say anything about the moon. Am I missing the relevant text?

Here's a piece from National Geographic about the (possible) effect of the moon on gardening:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...moongarden.html

A key quote:

John Teasdale, director of the U.S. Department of Agriculture's Agricultural Systems Laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland, said he is not aware of any research on the lunar influences on agriculture, though he said an experiment could be established.

"We know that the moon influences some natural phenomena such as tides," he said. "I would guess that a simple hypothesis would be that lunar cycles could influence meteorological cycles which in turn could influence crops."

Michael Jawson, another researcher at the facility, said the reported benefits of moon-gardening practices are most likely indirect effects that stem from gardener's attentive care. "The indirect effect could be one simply of overall better management because of being careful to do good practices at more optimum times in relation to plant growth cycles," he said.

[Craig Camp]

I think from Joly's point of view the moon is just one aspect of the whole concept. That is just the defense he came up with for his website.

[badthings]

In a 21-year study of farming systems published last year, swiss scientists found pretty significant differences between "regular" organic and biodynamic. (they are more focussed on the difference between those two systems and conventional agriculture, but you can tell from their tables):

Biomass and abundance of earthworms were higher by a factor of 1.3 to 3.2 in the organic plots as compared with conventional.... One of the particularly remarkable findings... was a strong and significant increase in microbial diversity in the order CONMIN, CONFYM < BIOORG < BIODYN, and an associated decrease in the metabolic quotient (qCO2)

[CONxxx are conventional farming systems, BIOORG is organic, BIODYN is biodynamic].

Mäder, et al., "Soil Fertility and Biodiversity in Organic Farming," Science 296, Number 5573 (31 May 2002), 1694-1697 [abstract].

The ram's horn and all that sounds like a load of crap to me, but I've been hearing about a lot of farmers -- particularly grape growers -- who are impressed with the results. I figure they know more about plants than I do.

[russ parsons]

we did a piece on biodynamic wines a couple of weeks ago (not the royal plural, the times food section) and i was part of the tasting group for it. i was quite surprised at the quality of the wines (and no, we couldn't get the boss to spring for leroy). my personal feeling, agreeing with fat guy, is that it's the result of conscientious farming (these are almost by definition small vineyards: it's hard to do biodynamic on an industrial level--can you imagine burying all those cow horns?).

whether there is a scientific basis to it or not really is not of that much interest to me. if someone believes praying to the great kali and sacrificing a minor beatle or two is what makes their wine great, all i care about is that it tastes good. (and, i must say, that they don't make me sit through too many lectures on the philosophical underpinnings.)

[Fat Guy]

I'm just wondering how they define the differences between "regular" organic and biodynamic. The comparison that would seem most meaningful would be biodynamic-whole-integrated-system mysticism-and-all versus partial-biodynamic using only those aspects of it that current science would find to presumptively have an effect on agriculture.